In other words, will both Catholics and Protestans (Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.) go to Heaven? Considering all believe the same basic principles of salvation, outside of some catholics believing you can lose your salvation, it is my opinion that there is no "right" denomination as long as you are, in fact, a Christian.

[This message has been edited by Hostile_Aggie (edited 4/16/2006 4:49p).]

What is your definition of a christian?

One who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and asked him for forgiveness of their sins

yes, if in fact they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and asked him for forgiveness of their sins.




There's a spirit can ne'er be told
It's the spirit of Aggieland.

The only thing that we need for Salavation is faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9, John 14:6). If this is true of a "Christian," he will inherit eternal life. Some people (including myself) believe in alot of other theology that could be best described as, "sort of messed up." This does not render one's Faith moot. So the answer that I, and the Scriptures, give is that any true Christian, regardless of denominational affiliation will go to Heaven.

But, its interesting that you ask about denominations. Take a look at what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13. I'll allow others to make their own interpretation of this passage, but I find it very convicting myself.

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Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."

Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
-1 Corinthians 1:12-13

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Some people (including myself) believe in alot of other theology that could be best described as, "sort of messed up." This does not render one's Faith moot.

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It depends on what other theology you believe

I am referring to the "possibility" that some of my own interpretations of Scripture may be off. I know the very essence of Christianity, which is that Jesus Christ lived as a sinless man and through his death and resurrection was able to "take away" my sins in the eyes of the Lord. I know that I must confess belief AND A TRUE FAITH in Christ and I have done so. One may misinterpret a scripture such as the fact that it is sinful to drink alcohol at all (an example only...I do not even know how to interpret this) or one might believe that the "Limited Atonement" point of John Calvin is true (just an example...I'm not professing one way of the other). I do not think that these issues render our Faith meaningless. That is what I mean by "messed-up theology." I guess, in hindsight, I should have used the term "doctrine."

Okay, I misunderstood. I agree with that assesment.

And if drinking alcohol was an unforgiveable sin, I might as well just pack my bags with some SPF 1 million and call it a life.

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hostileag - Considering all believe the same basic principles of salvation, outside of some catholics believing you can lose your salvationp

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Many more people than Catholics believe it is possible. This isn't necessarily a Catholic/Protestant issue.

I believe that there are some of God’s children in and outside of a visible church, and some in all denominations. I believe some visable chruches are closer to the truth than others, and so they tend to attract more of God’s true children than others. Many tend to make Christianity all about them performing some kind of work that somehow satisfies God. That tends to be the most common error that I believe tends to try to add to Christ’s merits, for their Justification. I believe this is a deadly error. Among some groups, it is the mainstreem view.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/16/2006 10:29p).]

It all depends on how they live their lives after they accept Jesus...

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It all depends on how they live their lives after they accept Jesus...

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73, have to take issue with you there.

Ephesians 2:8-9---for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast.

E.G. the way to heaven is through God's grace, specifically excepting Christ as our Lord and Savior.

OlJock - You can't join the Catholic or Lutheran or Episcopal Church and lead a life of sin and debauchery and expect that denomination to save you. Jesus himself told us in Matthew 25 the works we must do to enter heaven.

texasag, you are mistaken. Scripture specifically states, MANY times, that we must only do one thing and one thing alone to reach Heaven: Accept Jessu Christ as our Lord and Savior and acknowledge that he died on the cross for our sins.

Think about it though, if you live a VERY sinful life after accepting Christ, are you really a christian? If you really believed, why would you act in such a way if you believed in the grace of God? I mean, I sin, many times, everyday, however I dont do things intentionally to disobey God and ask for his forgiveness afterwards.

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lead a life of sin and debauchery

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Well, we all sin, but I get your point. I would contend that someone who seeks out living such a life likely wasn't saved. Doesn't change the fact that the only way to heaven is Christ.

To answer the original question, I believe that any member of any denomination who accepts the gift of Christ and professes him to be their Savior and Lord will be saved. Baptist, Catholic, etc.

The rest, Mormons included (which pains me greatly b/c one of my best friends was Mormon and died in car-wreck shortly after returning from his mission), I leave to God.

It is sad to think about all the truely great men and women who did wonderful things in this world that never saw the light and will not enjoy enternal life. Ghandi always comes to mind, one of the best men who ever lived, yet was blind to the truth.

All of the things Jesus lists below are necessary for your salvation. They are works. They help build up the kingdom for Jesus. If done without faith in Christ, they are pretty much useless. If they are done with faith in Christ as a result of His saving grace, they will surely help you out big time at the final judgement. Ignore these words of Jesus at your own peril...As James says, "Faith without works is dead." The converse of that statemtent - "Faith with works is alive" is a message to me and to you that performing Christian works make your faith come alive, as well as providing a testimony to others about Jesus. And "live faith" will certaintly get you into heaven. Performing Christian works to build up your faith is analagous to lifting weights to build up your muscles.



Matthew 25:29: For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30: And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'
31: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44: Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45: Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

When he says "Faith without works is dead", he is saying that you can believe all you want, as even Lucifer and the demons believe. The works he is reffering to is the acceptence of Jesus Christ and the act of asking him for forgiveness of our sins..

Hostle_Aggie -Like you have been asked before, from what bankrupt theology do you get that from. Come on, tell all of us with which sect do you worship with on Sunday. Are you ashamed?

ibm, I've already told you twice before what sect I am (both times you asked in the other thread), I am a Baptist, a denomination of the Protestant faith.

In other words, what I believe is right, and what you believe is wrong.

If you dont like it, that's your issue. I know what fate awaits me, do you know what lies in your time after death?

I’m not going to pretend that I’ve read every thread on here, but based solely on the content of this thread, I fail to see any indication of spiritual bankruptcy or shamefully matters in any of Hostile’s posts.

We are saved by faith. That faith, if true, is demonstrated in our works. You tell the tree by its fruit.....

Fahraint & Hostile_Aggie: Does that statement about fruits apply to the fruits of the Gospel as preached, lived, and manifested in the lives by the Latter-day Saints?

I truly forgot you were Baptist. So was my wife and I 38 years ago. I now understand the free, cheap and easy salvation that you preach ie. a lip service salvation.

I was always amused to learn that a Baptsit who was a profound sinner was "never" really saved. I wonder if Rev. Webber, the former Prestonwood Baptist Minister in Dallas (Megachurch) who had adultrous affairs with 5 or 6 of his church flock was "saved" or was he "never" really saved any way. He had a great excuse. He declared that he worked so very hard for the Lord, that he became weak and prey to the temptations of the devil. In LDS theology the more mighty the service you give in behalf of the Lord, the stronger you are to resist the buffetings of Satan. You can think to yourself which one makes the most sense. Bill Durr, one of my IBM Baptist colleagues in Miss. explained that although the minister that married him and his wife ran off with the office secretary, his marriage was still valid and legal. I wonder if he was still "Saved" as he dallied so long and hard with his secretary? Anyway you get the idea? It is the devil's great deception.

I certainly know what fate awaits me after death, and barring an accident to you, I am much closer to the end of the runway than you are.

Are you going to tackle Rev. 14:6& 7?

I would remind you what Roger Williams, the Pastor of the fist Baptist Church in America wrote: "There was NO regularly constituted Church of Christ, NOR any person AUTHORIZED to adminster ANY church ordinances, nor CAN THERE BE until NEW APOSTLES are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking" A few decades later his wishes were fulfilled!

Many think like Texasag73, with a “Do good and you will be saved” view, but the fact is that the scriptures proclaim that those who trust in Christ are “Saved, now do good”.

They are to look to rest in Christ that He saves them who have faith in Him, through that, comes the real spiritual power to truly work with a right heart, and to persevere in good works. One who is working the way people like Texasag73 said, is really just working to gain something from God. One can not have the right heart attitude if they think that their works are achieving, or maintaining, or has anything to do with their salvation. How could one be working in Love, if they are thinking that they are doing it to satisfy a salvation requirement? They are just working because they don’t want hell, and want heaven. It has nothing to do with knowing, loving, or even glorifying God. It’s all about self.

On the other hand, those who claim the gospel of free grace, and then live wickedly, are themselves showing that no spiritual power is compelling them forward. That they have simply made an intellectual statement that has no real fruit of it’s claims. This person seems in just as much of a deluded state as the other. It’s simply falling off the horse on the other side.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/16/2006 11:09p).]

This why we are saved by "grace" and not by our works in case we wanted to start bragging and forgot that it was Christ's atonement that allowed our puny works to exalt us. We are simply saved by grace AFTER all we can do ourselves. Christ's atonement then makes up the difference where we fall short; and all of us do-many more so than others. Christ in effects pays our debt of sin, thus the law of justice is satisfied. But it is not over. Christ becomes our "new creditor" and we are in his debt and the way we satisfy it is to keep his commandments, ie. faith, repentence, baptism by water and the Holy Ghost, etc. All of his terrible suffering was not to give us a "get out of jail free" card or some kind of a spiritual "handout". Christ set the terms of the repayment of our debt to him, who is our new creditor (Saviour).

ibmagg,
I have to take issue with something you said. The "after all we can do" part is found in 2 Nephi 25:23. This passage is very similar to Ephesians 2:8-9, but it seems to directly refute Paul's teachings in this passage that Salvation is not of works.

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For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
-Ephesians 2:8-9

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For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled
to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
-2 Nephi 25:23

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[This message has been edited by three and out (edited 4/17/2006 4:08a).]

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texasag, you are mistaken. Scripture specifically states, MANY times, that we must only do one thing and one thing alone to reach Heaven: Accept Jessu Christ as our Lord and Savior and acknowledge that he died on the cross for our sins.

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Have you considered Acts 2:38? They asked what to do to be saved, and were told two things: "Repent and be baptized unto the remission of sins."

Jesus himself said, "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved."

You're not being honest with yourself or with the rest of us when you say that they Bible says many times that there is only one thing we have to do to be saved - accept Jesus as Lord.

It would have been pretty easy for Peter to answer their question in Acts 2:37 by saying, "Just say this prayer....Lord, I accept you as my personal saviour." He didn't do that. Why not?

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It would have been pretty easy for Peter to answer their question in Acts 2:37 by saying, "Just say this prayer....Lord, I accept you as my personal saviour." He didn't do that. Why not?

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That's an easy one! Because the "doctrine" of faith-alone salvation is an evil, Satan-inspired teaching designed to make those who do not truly follow the Savior feel comfortable with their level of disobedience and sloth.

I hope that was said unambigiously enough?

I think I got it. Thanks.

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This why we are saved by "grace" and not by our works in case we wanted to start bragging and forgot that it was Christ's atonement that allowed our puny works to exalt us. We are simply saved by grace AFTER all we can do ourselves. Christ's atonement then makes up the difference where we fall short; and all of us do-many more so than others.

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So, if someone is not saved, yet they were taught the same as you, then what could we say is better about you than them? Wouldn’t you have to say “that I obeyed, and did all I could”, and if that is the case, then haven’t you got something to boast about? If your salvation hinges upon something you do, then you have something to boast about. Call your works puny or not, but they are the deciding factor. They are the tiny, and puny things, that are the deciding factor, which in that sense, makes the things you call tiny and puny to be great and awesome! Worthy of praise!


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/17/2006 10:43a).]

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So, if someone is not saved, yet they were taught the same as you, then what could we say is better about you than them?

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It has nothing to do with comparisons. It has everything to do with incorporating the Spirit into your life, keeping yourself in the right way with God, and doing what He has commanded. You are then sanctified by the Spirit, which is a life-long process and not a single instant of salvation-deciding prayer, or confession.

Liam

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That's an easy one! Because the "doctrine" of faith-alone salvation is an evil, Satan-inspired teaching designed to make those who do not truly follow the Savior feel comfortable with their level of disobedience and sloth.

I hope that was said unambigiously enough?

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Think about this option.

What if God chose to save people by faith alone, and to put his own spirit in them that convicts them of sin, so that they can not ever fully give their hearts to sin again, and at the same time that spirit also continually testifies the greatness of what He has done for them, and His great Love for them, that He has adopted them, and that He is now their loving father. That if those things being continually testified to the person caused that person to always seek to walk with, obey, and work the good works that God has given them to do?

So, the end result is the same, that they do work, only not because they think it is saving them, but out of love! Do you admit that God could save people in that way, that believe they are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, and yet they are zealous for good works and obedience, as you have stated they must do?

Would you say that, that might be a valid alternative to what you claim is true. That those who He does that work in, do the things you claim they must do, but those who He is not working in are those who have just made a vain profession that He has, or is.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/17/2006 10:26a).]

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It has nothing to do with comparisons. It has everything to do with incorporating the Spirit into your life, keeping yourself in the right way with God, and doing what He has commanded. You are then sanctified by the Spirit, which is a life-long process and not a single instant of salvation-deciding prayer, or confession.

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So, do we say that it’s all about us doing things, or about Him?

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Do we trust in our doing, or His promises to do? Again, one seems to be about doing to be saved, and the other does works, but out of love. One seems to know God like business man he has a salvation deal with, and the other obeys his loving father.

One of those views puffs up, and the other keeps one humble. One of those views looks to the power of self, and the other looks to, and acknowledges the need for the Lord to overcome, and change them, and admits an inability, and a neediness. Don’t the scriptures teach that God gives grace to the humble, but He knows the proud from far off?


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/17/2006 10:56a).]

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What if God chose to save people by faith alone, and to put his own spirit in them that convicts them of sin, so that they can not ever fully give their hearts to sin again, and at the same time that spirit also continually testifies the greatness of what He has done for them, and His great Love for them, that He has adopted them, and that He is now their loving father. That if those things being continually testified to the person caused that person to always seek to walk with, obey, and work the good works that God has given them to do?

So, the end result is the same, that they do work, only not because they think it is saving them, but out of love! Do you admit that God could save people in that way, that believe they are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, and yet they are zealous for good works and obedience, as you have stated they must do?

Would you say that, that might be a valid alternative to what you claim is true. That those who He does that work in, do the things you claim they must do, but those who He is not working in are those who have just made a vain profession that He has, or is.

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notafraid,

I believe God can do anything He desires, for sure. I believe that it is His work to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life, and to that end he sent Jesus to make the way possible for us.

I also believe that God does not force anything upon us, either salvation or damnation, but that we decide which path we will take. He gives us his Spirit to guide us, encourage us, keep us in the way of life, definitely. I think that with the Spirit in our lives, we will seek to do the things that He has asked of us, not to "gain" our salvation (impossible) but because it is what He would have us do.

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notafraid,

I believe God can do anything He desires, for sure. I believe that it is His work to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life, and to that end he sent Jesus to make the way possible for us.

I also believe that God does not force anything upon us, either salvation or damnation, but that we decide which path we will take. He gives us his Spirit to guide us, encourage us, keep us in the way of life, definitely. I think that with the Spirit in our lives, we will seek to do the things that He has asked of us, not to "gain" our salvation (impossible) but because it is what He would have us do.

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Do you just think that I just said that God forces us to do things? I don’t force my own kids to obey, but a good spanking tends to make them obey. Don’t the scriptures give us examples of God disciplining us so that we FREELY obey him? Didn’t David lay on a sickbed until He repented?

Surely if we (his children) deny the convictions of the spirit we are disciplined so we do not perish:

1 Corinthians 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

So, are you calling that a denial of our freewill? We freely repent, just as David did, but it seems you wish to ultimately look to self tp the degree that you don’t even speak of, and even deny the power of God, and the will of God to save His children! I mean, He made us. Certainly he knows what buttons to push to get our attention.


I believe it is your error is you say that He only works to make salvation POSSIBLE, but I would convince you that the scriptures teach that His work does not stop there, that He is still working to make it ACTUIAL. It’s not all about US from there, but it’s still about looking to Him in need of His grace. Again, not to work for salvation, but to work out of love, with an eye to His promise that we ARE saved because of Him. Because we are Justified because of His work alone.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/17/2006 11:10a).]