Thanks, opk. It's interesting to see the arguments from the other side and then to see the factual counter-arguments.

As an aside I should say that site will never be of any help to me because I just simply don't need it. For me it's as simple as:

5) The Second Coming.

This concept is totally foreign to Judaism.
Since Jesus did not fulfill any messianic prophecies while he appeared on earth how do Christians/Hebrew-Christians get around this?
Answer -"The Second Coming".

("messianic prophecies" according to the Torah)

That is about as black and white as it gets for me. If Jesus was indeed the messiah, when he was on earth there would have been peace and all the prophecies of the Torah would have been fulfilled. It didn't happen. He isn't the Messiah.

No disrespect intended, but "second coming"? C'mon, gimme a break. That has 'find another way to make what we want to believe true, true' written all over it.

Whereas the Jewish viewpoint is so much simpler. There is no peace on earth and the prophecies haven't been fulfilled, ergo, the messiah has not come. Why is that so hard to compute??!!

[This message has been edited by yeahyeahimahorn (edited 4/18/2006 3:21p).]

And, by the way, every single time I have brought up that argument (no peace on earth = no messiah yet) to anyone who has challenged me on my beliefs they have never been able to give a clear cut, non-biblical, simple, easy argument. It always ends up being some mumble jumble taken directly from the bible. Considering I don't believe your bible, MAKE me believe it.

Just gimme an answer. Make it as simple as the Jewish perspective and I will take it at face value and for what it's worth.

Yes, all. That's a challenge

quote:

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And, by the way, every single time I have brought up that argument (no peace on earth = no messiah yet) to anyone who has challenged me on my beliefs they have never been able to give a clear cut, non-biblical, simple, easy argument.

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One question and one statement:

Why do you think the Messiah would quickly bring peace on Earth? Isaiah and many other prophets seem to tell a much different story. After all, neither a "suffering or conquering" Messiah implies much peace.

Our Messiah is reborn, lives, and his work is not yet done.

yeahyeahimahorn:

Rather than start from scratch, I copied and pasted the history in my previous post from an email that I had sent to a friend. Once I posted it, I realized that it contained some explanation about Judaism that you, of course, don't need. Naturally, as soon as I realized my mistake, I lost my internet connection. :b

I've been sitting here, feeling rather embarrassed by it, and unable to correct my mistake until now. *blush*

opk and yeahyeahimahorn:

I'd be interested in hearing a Jewish opinion on an issue that I've been trying to figure out...

It seems to me that Jewish people place a great deal of importance on maintaining a "Jewish Identity." Because of this, it seems that many Jews object to the idea of "Gentiles" following Torah for fear that such a thing may blur the distinction between "Jew" and "Gentile."

Do you find this to be the case?

Here is a link to an article on this subject written by Tim Hegg who, if I'm not mistaken, was previously an Orthodox Jew before becoming a Messianic:

http://www.torahresource.com/English%20Articles/OLMResponse.pdf

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the article.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 4/18/2006 4:13p).]

yeahyeahimahorn:

quote:

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And, by the way, every single time I have brought up that argument (no peace on earth = no messiah yet) to anyone who has challenged me on my beliefs they have never been able to give a clear cut, non-biblical, simple, easy argument. It always ends up being some mumble jumble taken directly from the bible. Considering I don't believe your bible, MAKE me believe it.

Just gimme an answer. Make it as simple as the Jewish perspective and I will take it at face value and for what it's worth.

Yes, all. That's a challenge

---

Let me make sure I'm understanding your "challenge" correctly...

Are you saying that the concept of two "Messiahs" or "two comings of the Messiah" (i.e. Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben David) are foreign to Judaism?

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 4/18/2006 4:46p).]

Ramblin,

"Then again, neither could Daniel, but I'm sure that doesn't bother you."

Bother or no bother to me what does it matter? Daniel was KEPT from celebrating because his people did not follow God. Daniel obeyed God...

Rightly said about Easter... I don't celebrate it, it is of no spiritual value to celebrate.

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Bother or no bother to me what does it matter? Daniel was KEPT from celebrating because his people did not follow God. Daniel obeyed God...

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Daniel was in captivity because his people disobeyed God.

We're still in captivity because we have disobeyed God.

Captivity to what? sin...

Not if you are "in" Christ and remain in Christ, if you are a slave to Christ you are free.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

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Captivity to what? sin...

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Where did Daniel spend most of his life?

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Daniel was KEPT from celebrating because his people did not follow God. Daniel obeyed God...

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You are absolutely right, but I was trying to get at something else. They make a big deal in the book of Daniel that he and his friends refused the food of the king, because they followed God's Law. Why would Daniel care? His only punishment would be ceremonial uncleanliness, but there was no ceremony and no temple. What difference would it make?

Regardless, it made all the difference in the world to Daniel. He was willing to risk his life to obey God without any hope of ceremonial benefit. If he was so dilligent over such little things, then I sure he did the best he could in regards to everything else, including the feasts.

Was Daniel's observance a shadow of a shadow? Absolutely. Does that make it meaningless? Of course not. Daniel did the best he could possibly could under his circumstances. You will never be able to convince me that his observance was worthless.

Where did Daniel spend most of his life? I do not know off hand the number of years he lived different places.

He was in Jerusalem, and Babylon... your point is?

Being out of "Jersusalem" is being captive?

Ramblin, what is your point? Daniel was a hero of Faith! He did exactly what he was supposed to do... The food and bowing to the King issue was NOT ceremonial and it did matter. Every command given by God matters to those to whom it was given. To break a ceremonial law was sin, to break a moral law was a sin... no difference.