Once Saved, Always Saved

1,684 Views | 76 Replies | Last: 19 yr ago by OSAg01
Guadaloop474
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Philippians, chapter 2


12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Doesn't the above verse nuke the "Once saved, always saved" theory?
Notafraid
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Stop cutting Paul off there. The next verse MUST be quoted with that for it to be a complete statement! It's like the other side of the coin!

It’s the complete statement of man’s responsibility, and God’s sovereignty over the process. Notice also that it does not say “work ON your salvation” , it says “work OUT your salvation”. I am sure if you and I look at this we can work OUT what he is saying.
Guadaloop474
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13: for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

OK, notafraid, but this verse doesn't negate the verse before it, does it? Please explain....
OSAg01
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John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
OSAg01
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Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
OSAg01
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I guess if one reasons that man voluntarily accepts Christ on his own without provocation of the Holy Spirit then it only makes sense that man can then later voluntarily reject Christ with his free will, thus losing his salvation. Lucky for us, God knows we will never seek Him on our own and we can't uphold our end of his covenant on our own and therefore provides the means and the assurance that we will persevere.
OSAg01
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John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

I don't think Jesus means that one crosses over from death to life and then eventually may taste death again. He who believes HAS eternal life.
Guadaloop474
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Romans, chapter 11

22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Doesn't this verse say that you personally have to do your part in the salvation process, or you will be cut off from God's graces?
Redstone
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The fact that "Bible-based" churches split over this question should be a good indication that Scripture isn't particularly clear on the point.
farmerbill1
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My daddy always said - I believe "once saved, always saved", but I'm going to live my life other wise.
The Lone Stranger
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As Paul said, I know in whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him, against that day.

It seems that Paul's confession indicated that he was secure in his trust in God to keep his committment to the Lord Jesus.
Guadaloop474
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1 Corinthians 9:27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Lone - Paul indicates here that even he can lose his salvation if he doesn't practice self-mortification of his body....
The Lone Stranger
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quote:
1 Corinthians 9:27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Lone - Paul indicates here that even he can lose his salvation if he doesn't practice self-mortification of his body....


Disqualified from what?.....does the context indicate salvation or the responsibility of a preacher?

The confession of Paul that I quoted is still true. His trust is in God, not himself, to keep the committment to Him.

Guadaloop474
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So you are saying that preachers have to pommel their body and subdue it to remain preachers? Or does that apply to all who seek salvation?
ramblin_ag02
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quote:
The fact that "Bible-based" churches split over this question should be a good indication that Scripture isn't particularly clear on the point.


It also shows that us Christians, us Protestants especially, do not tolerate dissention on even the most debatable Biblical ideas.

When Catholics ferociously disagree, the Pope endorses one side and the other side falls in line. When Protestants ferociously disagree, they split and start new churches. Whichever you think is better probably depends on whether you are Protestant or Catholic.
Sully
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I John 5:10
John 3:16
John 3:36
Titus 3:5
Eph 2:8-9
Rom 5:18
Rom 6:23
II Cor 6:2
John 3:3
I Peter 1:23
I John 3:2
Rom 8:15
Rom 8:38
John 10:29
Heb 13:5
Matt 28:20
I John 5:13
John 5:24
John 6:37
Col 2:10
Heb 10:10,14
II Tim 4:18
I Peter 1:5
Jude 1:24
Heb 7:25
Eph 1:13
Eph 4:30
I Cor 3:11-15
Eph 5:30
I Cor 12:18
II Tim 2:13
I Cor 5:1,5
II Cor 11:3

Seems pretty clear to me.

[This message has been edited by Sully (edited 4/5/2006 12:13p).]
VT2TAMU
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Perhaps Paul is talking about sanctification? Perhaps you should present this argument instead of going on another "Catholics are better and smarter than Protestant" threads.

In the end, this is the end of these threads. Yes, we know you love the Catholic church and think it's superior, yada yada yada.

vt
Mrs. Lovelight
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texasag,

I wanted to address the scriptures that you posted.

quote:
Philippians, chapter 2


12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much
more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Doesn't the above verse nuke the "Once saved, always saved" theory?



No, I don’t believe these verses negate OSAS. What Paul is doing here is exhorting Christians to work toward sanctification as VT2TAMU already said. Just like an athlete works out his muscles to make them stronger. (An athlete would still have muscles even if he didn’t work out but he wouldn’t be as strong or be able to have as much endurance for whatever
sport he’s partaking in). So a believer is to exercise faith and make his salvation evident in the way he lives his life, particularly here where Paul is telling them to be kind to each other and take care of one another w/humility.
But that doesn’t mean Paul is telling them to earn their salvation. There are plenty of scriptures of Paul saying otherwise.

quote:
Romans, chapter 11

22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's
kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Doesn't this verse say that you personally have to do your part in the salvation process, or you will be cut
off from God's graces?


Paul is in the middle of teaching them about Israel being cut off and he uses the opportunity to exhort the gentile Christians not to be arrogant toward the Jews.

Romans 11:18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who
support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off
so that I might be grafted in." 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but
you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21For if God did not
spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Paul says here that the Jews were cut off because of their unbelief but the Christians stand fast through their faith. Now you tell me, if you read Paul’s letters, exactly what faith he is talking about? A faith that trusts not in Christ but rather outward works or one trusts in Christ to justify and works out of a thankful, grateful heart?

quote:
1 Corinthians 9:27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I
myself should be disqualified.

Lone - Paul indicates here that even he can lose his salvation if he doesn't practice self-mortification of
his body....


Paul is speaking in the preceding verses about giving up his right to partake of certain freedoms. He did this for the sake of the gospel. He was under particular scrutiny, being an apostle, and he even had to
defend himself against false apostles. So he was very careful to “be a servant to all”.
1 Cor. 9:19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.

So I think Lone is right on here when he says that Paul was careful not to disqualify himself or hurt his credibility as a preacher of the gospel.

texasag,
I think that your getting into the Word is a good thing and I would exhort you to really dig in and see if these things we are telling you are true or not. If you disagree, I would love to hear what you think about them.
Guadaloop474
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VT2 - You sure read a lot into a simple OSAS thread. Are you telling me to shutup while you get to keep posting?
Guadaloop474
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Mrs Lovelight - Now that was a thoughtful reply. I have been digging into the scriptures since I was a boy, when my Aunt gave me my very own Douay Rheims version of the Bible. I used to read it while sitting on the banks of the Guadalupe River on my dad's ranch....

However, I must disagree with some of your interpretation. Salvation can be lost. It happened to Saul in the OT, as he was once filled with the spirit and lost it. And there is Judas in the NT who was chosen as Christ's apostle by Jesus himself, and then threw it all away for 30 pieces of silver.
AggieFrog
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quote:

When Catholics ferociously disagree, the Pope endorses one side and the other side falls in line. When Protestants ferociously disagree, they split and start new churches. Whichever you think is better probably depends on whether you are Protestant or Catholic.

More realistically they just ignore the Pope's endorsement and go on with life. I highly doubt a great number of Catholics agree with all the tenents of the Catholic ideology.

Of course, in my experience the vast majority of Catholics I know rarely if ever go to church.
VT2TAMU
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Texags73

I'm not telling you to quite posting, hardly.

You're a well-versed individual, so you should be aware of the idea that Paul is discussion our sanctification in this passage. Salvation has a few parts, regeneration, sanctification, glorificaion. This of course is Protestant lingo. Catholics and Protestants agree on this fundamentally, but call it different things.

So I'm left wondering why you're bringing this passage up if by no other intent than to stoke a fire.

This might surprise you, not all Protestants are "ignorant" of Catholic doctrine and belief(s).

vt
Notafraid
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quote:

OK, notafraid, but this verse doesn't negate the verse before it, does it? Please explain....



Sorry it took so long, I have been busy making money. I did explain it in the very post you just responded to. What don’t you understand about my explanation? Did it look like I was trying to say that it should negate the verse before it?
Notafraid
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quote:

The fact that "Bible-based" churches split over this question should be a good indication that Scripture isn't particularly clear on the point.


You need to quit pretending like Prots are the only ones who are ever divided. Aquinas, and Augustine are clear on the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. That once they are saved, they are always saved. Once they are in Christ, they can never not be in Christ. That is all that us Prots are saying also. Yet again, it sounds like we are the ones arguing for positions much closer to the positions of the historic church than you guys are. Yall really need to come back to the Catholic faith like us prots have!
Redstone
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Once again, a call for details if the Church is so off track. Perhaps this time we'll see some - -

Here is the Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here are the writings of St. Augustine, Doctor of the Church:

http://www.augustinian.villanova.edu/writings/english.htm

Please show, as clearly as possible, where all the ignorant Catholics have it wrong.
Redstone
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St. Aquinas, still considered one of Church's greatest writers:

http://www.saintmarys.edu/~incandel/fmp.html

Another Catechism if the first one is too cumbersome:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
Guadaloop474
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Questions for the Saved on this forum -
Do you ever need to confess your sins if you are already saved?
Are you not capable of ever committing a deadly sin (1 john 5:16)?
Does anybody in your church ever commit a deadly sin?
In Revelation 21:27, it says that nothing unclean shall enter into heaven. Are you all spotless?
BigLeroy
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"Work out your own salvation ..." ... means just what it says ... its yours, you have it as a possession on the inside, the human spirit is saved, born again, set free, delivered ... now work it outward into your soul (mind, will, emotions, intellect) and body. Someone mentioned it earlier ... sanctification. But, sanctification is not the earning of salvation.

I don't believe in once saved always saved ... I just believe in once saved. Have to throw out Heb 6 to believe once saved always saved.
Notafraid
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Redstone,

It is telling that you do not even link to the places where Augustine or Aquinas write about their positions on the Perseverance of the saints. Do you even know where those links are?

You keep arguing that God’s children can loose their salvation, but yet you want to appeal to general volumes of documents to compare them to each other. What kind of a theological position is that to take? Look if your position is flat out that “the predestined can loose their salvation”, and Aquinas and Augustine flat out say they can not, that is all that need be appealed to. No need to get all into complex arguments, and grand appeals, and confuse the issues like some lawyer arguing to get a murder off. There is no need too. You flat out oppose them, and you do so because of what you have been taught. That is all we need appeal to… Most of the Catholic theologians that I have dealt with would claim that they do disagree with them, but that they are from certain schools of valid catholic thought. You on the other hand set yourself up in an awful predicament by pretending that the currently popular dogmas of Rome are Augustinian, or Thomistic.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 4/5/2006 5:07p).]
Notafraid
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quote:

It happened to Saul in the OT, as he was once filled with the spirit and lost it. And there is Judas in the NT who was chosen as Christ's apostle by Jesus himself, and then threw it all away for 30 pieces of silver.


Those guys were never saved. Aguinas and Augustine would say that they were predestined to grace, but not predestined to Glory.
pocketrockets06
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quote:
Questions for the Saved on this forum -
Do you ever need to confess your sins if you are already saved?
Are you not capable of ever committing a deadly sin (1 john 5:16)?
Does anybody in your church ever commit a deadly sin?
In Revelation 21:27, it says that nothing unclean shall enter into heaven. Are you all spotless?


Yes, I confess my sin after being saved. Not because it saves me, but because it is necessary to become more like Christ. If we fail to admit to ourselves (and to our fellow Christians) that we have sinned, it becomes ver easy to continue in our sin. You may ask, if you are saved, why do you sin? Because we still live in fallen bodies although our souls are saved (I think this is the conflict of the two natures that Paul discusses in Romans).


As to the deadly sin, the standard Protestant interpretation (to which I hold and feel is consistent with other Scripture) is that only those who are not saved are capable of committing a deadly sin. That's a bit of a simplification but this is just TexAgs.

As far as REvelation goes, my soul is spotless with the forgiving grace of Jesus, my body (which is corrupt and fallen) will be destroyed.
PhiAggie
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I certainly dont believe in once saved always saved. Im not sure where it is, but doesnt it say in the NT that it is better for one to never have heard the gospel, that to have heard and turned away? Someone help me out here....
Redstone
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notafriad,

any omission was not intentional. Include them.

The larger point stands: take their writings, take the Catechism, let's compare them closely side by side, and show us the clear contradictions, instead of always stating it. And then, perhaps, you can finally make a case that the Church is so off track and that Calvinists are the true successors to these great writers of the Catholic faith.
Guadaloop474
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quote:
Those guys were never saved


And that is always the retort when someone turns away from God that used to follow God - "Well, they were never saved in the first place". How do you know you won't wind up like them, then, unless you can predict the future? I'm sure they thought they were "saved" as much as you do now....
Guadaloop474
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Once Saved, Always Saved?

By Jason Evert

This Rock
Volume 13, Number 3
March 2002

1. The Bible says in Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, when I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, I was saved. It’s a done deal.



Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith." From there, add that Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Just as we cannot deny that salvation is a past- and present-tense event, the Evangelical Protestant cannot deny that Scripture also speaks of it as a future-tense event. For evidence of this, verses such as Romans 13:11 might be offered: "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).

When you emphasize that salvation can be lost, the Protestant often hears, "You have not yet been saved." He knows that the Bible speaks of salvation as a past-tense event, and so no matter how many verses you offer, you will not be able to prove this to be false. The way to move beyond this impasse is to offer the big picture of salvation: past, present, and future.


2. How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand (John 10:28)?


One mistake that often leads to verse slinging is failing to address a verse that is presented. When we hear a Protestant offer his verse, we think of another verse that seems to argue for our position and we toss it back to him. Then we become frustrated that he never looked seriously as the verse and threw a different one back at us. The remedy for this type of scriptural ping-pong is to take the time to look at each verse that is brought up.

In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."


3. If you can lose your salvation by sin, doesn’t that imply that you are earning your salvation? Ephesians 2:8–9, says, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast."


Perhaps the best place to begin when dealing with this verse is to turn to the Council of Trent. In chapter eight of the Decree on Justification, the Church said that "none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification." This means that no man can work himself into a state of justification. The New Covenant is not a system of works righteousness whereby a person can please God and earn heaven by doing a number of good deeds. This is what Paul is driving at in Ephesians 2. He is not saying that sin cannot separate us from Christ.

When he gave a litany of created things that can not separate us from the love of God in Romans 8:39, notice that he did not say, "neither fornication nor adultery nor drunkenness nor murder will separate us from the love of God." He was well aware that if we choose sin, we renounce Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:1–2, Paul says, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain." So, you could believe, but fail to hold fast to the gospel, and not be saved (cf. 2 Pet. 2:20).

This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will "take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (Rev 22:19).

Just because you may choose to no longer hold fast to what was freely given to you does not mean that you were ever capable of earning what was given to you in the first place. The same is true of earthly sonship—it cannot be earned. But if you were adopted, you would be free to run away as a prodigal son and lose your inheritance.


4. What’s the history behind the teaching that you could lose your salvation?


The first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.

In the first century, the Didache, commonly known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, said "Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

In the second century, Irenaeus wrote, "To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Such consistent testimony could be given from the dawn of Christianity until today, and no suggestion of "once saved, always saved" can be found on the lips of any Christian before Calvin.
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