TRADITION - The things that you mentioned are on the coffins in the Rome catacombs from the first century...Besides, your bible is the abridged version. All pre-Reformation bibles, and the current Catholic bible, all contain the book of Maccabees...Luther didn't like it, so he threw it out with 6 other books...Jeremiah had been dead a long time when he appeared to Judas Maccabees.



2 Maccabees, chapter 15:
11: He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief.

12: What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews.

13: Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority.

14: And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."

15: Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus:

16: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries."


[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 3/30/2006 6:56p).]

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Ill answer your question about why he did it for mary, if you answer my question as to why he performed miracles to begin with.

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Generally He performed His miracles so that all would see and believe. More specifically He performed each particular miracle for different reasons, sometimes to teach a lesson... sometimes because of compassion for a person... sometimes as sort of a reward for an individual's strong faith.

Redd....thats correct....and that is the same answer I give you. It has nothing to do with mary.

Phi - Says who? You? How do you know that?

Phi-
You don't think Mary had any role in that miracle? I can understand if you don't think her role on earth is related to her role in heaven.... but come on, the only thing that happened between Jesus not wanting to do it and Jesus doing it was Mary saying something.

So because his mom asked him to do something, that grants her some type of hightened position?

Did the thief on the cross have a hightened position when he asked the Lord to remember him when he came into his kingdom?

73, redds answer is the reason why Jesus performed miracles. Do you really believe he wouldnt have done it had mary not asked him?

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73, redds answer is the reason why Jesus performed miracles. Do you really believe he wouldnt have done it had mary not asked him?

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Based on what the Bible states about the Wedding in Cana I do not think Jesus would have performed that particular miracle w/out Mary having asked him to do so.

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Did the thief on the cross have a hightened position when he asked the Lord to remember him when he came into his kingdom?

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Yes, I think the theif did have a closer relationship with Jesus than we do because he was physically present with Jesus. Although I think Mary still had a closer relationship than that. That's why we pray to all the saints, not just Mary because we believe that being present with Jesus in heaven gives them a closer relationship with him than we have here on earth. Mary is just even more special among the saints.

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Yes, I think the theif did have a closer relationship with Jesus than we do because he was physically present with Jesus. Although I think Mary still had a closer relationship than that. That's why we pray to all the saints, not just Mary because we believe that being present with Jesus in heaven gives them a closer relationship with him than we have here on earth. Mary is just even more special among the saints.

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Do you for real think that the thief on the cross had a closer relationship with Jesus than us?

According to the biblical record they had about a total of 45 seconds to a minute of coversation, and in that exchange, they developed a relationship closer than people who are born again and have served, loved, obeyed, and worhipped Jesus for over 60 years?

Seriously, do you really believe that?




[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 3/31/2006 11:57a).]

Aggiez, sorry for a late page 1 comment but your top 10 list of unsound doctrine, is right thinking.

I think Mary got knocked up by Joseph and used the virgin birth as an excuse.

Dante, I agree that he did it because she asked him to. But has Jesus ever said no to help?

I believe he would have performed that miracle had anyone asked him....even the apostles.

A Christianity Today article by a Baylor University professor -

Hail Mary
Her moment of obedience triggered two millennia of reverence
by David Lyle Jeffrey
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/2004/003/6.16.html

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Do you for real think that the thief on the cross had a closer relationship with Jesus than us?

According to the biblical record they had about a total of 45 seconds to a minute of coversation, and in that exchange, they developed a relationship closer than people who are born again and have served, loved, obeyed, and worhipped Jesus for over 60 years?

Seriously, do you really believe that?

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Yes I do. Has Jesus ever personally told you absolutely that you will be with Him in paradise? Cause he told that to the theif. Sounds to me like he's got a closer relationship.

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Yes I do. Has Jesus ever personally told you absolutely that you will be with Him in paradise? Cause he told that to the theif. Sounds to me like he's got a closer relationship.

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I find this concept odd that the Lord knows and loves some of his children better than others. It isn’t like He is distant, and only contactable through some megaphone, or through a secretary or something. He is really very present right now in us, and knows us much better than we know ourselves. Perish the thought that He is not really in our midst right now, and has not knows us from all eternity. He is the one in whom we live and move and have our being. He knows our thoughts before we even say them. Deny this heresy that he is far apart from His children, even when they sin! Do you think he is somehow surprised by your sin, or your forgetfulness of Him? Is He who chose you, and caused you to know Him, and to be born again somehow going to say “Gosh I never knew you could be so bad! The salvation deal is off!” He knows the worst about me before he ever began the relationship! He already knows the worst I will ever do, and He is therefore never delusional about me! There is equality in Christ, not super-Christians, and non-SuperChristains!

I'm not saying God loves some of His children more than other. He loves us all the same, and He desires to be equally close to all of us. But sin hurts our relationship. It's not that God doesn't want to be close to us, it's that by chosing to sin we don't want to be close to God.

Additionally, Catholics believe there is a difference between the physical presence of God and the He's-always-with-us presence of God. That's why the Eucharist is such a big deal and Eucharistic adoration is so popular.

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I'm not saying God loves some of His children more than other. He loves us all the same, and He desires to be equally close to all of us. But sin hurts our relationship. It's not that God doesn't want to be close to us, it's that by chosing to sin we don't want to be close to God.

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--and this proves that the thief had a more intimate knowlede of God than us how?

Also, the Pharisees followed Jesus around and heard his voice on a daily basis, and it didn't exactly impove on His relationship with them.

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--and this proves that the thief had a more intimate knowlede of God than us how?

Also, the Pharisees followed Jesus around and heard his voice on a daily basis, and it didn't exactly impove on His relationship with them.

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I wasn't trying to prove that the theif had a more intimate knowledge of God... i was trying to show that there are in fact different levels of relationship with God. The Pharisees did in fact have a special relationship with Jesus, it wasn't a closer relationship cause they didn't believe He was the son of God.... but that doesn't mean it wasn't a special relationship. However, everyone in heaven has a special relationship with God, and that relationship is closer than ours on earth.

My point is there are different levels of relationship is God. Everyone in heaven has a closer relationship with God than even the holiest person on earth. Those that were on earth with Jesus had a chance to have a relationship with Jesus that we can't have until we're in heaven. That's what I believe, believe whatever you want.

This whole thread is so, like, yesterday!

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This whole thread is so, like, yesterday!

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Why are we spending our Friday night posting in a Mary thread that should have ended 2 pages ago?

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Why are we spending our Friday night posting in a Mary thread that should have ended 2 pages ago?

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Because I am a much lamer dude than I would like to admit!