The Church will one day be raptured out of this world to meet the Lord in the air, possibly
soon.

Shortly thereafter, the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy will begin (Dan. 9:24-27). This will be a period of God's judgment upon the earth in preparation for the return of the Messiah at its close.

During this tubulent period, a godless Gentile world system will experience an unparalleled outpouring of God's wrath, and Israel will suffer through the birth pains of reconciliation with Christ.

Nowhere in Scripture is it explicitly stated that there will be a Temple built during this time, but there are many passages suggesting that this will occur.

For example, Daniel spoke of sacrifices and oblations during this period (Dan. 9:27). For Daniel's prophecy to be fulfilled, a Jewish Temple must be built, and it must be in Jerusalem.

[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/23/2006 4:12p).]

This all assumes a Pre-Trib Premillinial point of view.

I'm an Amillinial Partial-Preterist, so I can't help you out.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

quote:

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I'm an Amillinial Partial-Preterist, so I can't help you out

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No Problem Aggie4Life02

In any event, throughout the prophetic portions of the Word of God, there are indications that a unique individual, referred to as the Anti-Christ (1 John 2:18,22), will rise to power on the earth following the Rapture of the Church.

He will promise Israel and the Jewish people something for which they have longed for centuries - peace. He will ensure that peace through a covenant confirmed with Israel for a seven-year period.

In all probability, it will be during this time that a new Temple will be built in Jerusalem. There is, however, a possibility that its construction may be started or even completed just prior to the Rapture of the Church. When this Temple is finished and dedicated, the Levitical system of sacrifices could be reinstituted and returned to its full importance.

quote:

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For example, Daniel spoke of sacrifices and oblations during this period (Dan. 9:27). For Daniel's prophecy to be fulfilled, a Jewish Temple must be built, and it must be in Jerusalem.

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Has this not already occurred? Are sacrifices and oblations being observed now?

I am not aware of that Bracy. I have read on several occasions that they have taken a cornerstone out to the Temple mount but the attempt to build anything on the Temple mount was foiled.

Do you have more information on this or where it may be?

The 70 weeks of Daniel are already over in my view.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

Yeah, I know Aggie4Life02. I differ but that is another long subject.

The following is a copy of an article several years ago appearing in the Jerusalem Post that I had in file:

"Led by a cohen in priestly robes, and equipped with special vessels for the Temple ritual, two rams' horns, a clarinet and an accordion, members of the Faithful of the Temple Mount yesterday marched from the Western Wall to the Pool of Siloam to consecrate what they have designated as the cornerstone of the Third Temple.

Police had prevented the group from laying the "cornerstone" in the Western Wall Plaza, as they originally intended.




[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/23/2006 5:51p).]

I think you misunderstood my point.

I believe that the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week is the 3 1/2 years of Yeshua's ministry. Yeshua confirmed a covenant, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed, the Messiah was cut off, and the daily sacrifices ceased, and have remained so for nearly 2000 years.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/23/2006 5:51p).]

"unparalleled outpouring of God's wrath"

I have always wondered why this god would play around with an unprecedented outpouring. couldn't it just make things to be however it wanted. For instance, it could just magically make all of the "bad" people disappear or make them good. Come to think of it, why doesn't it do it now? Why all the games? Why even have a "wrath" at all?

quote:

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I believe that the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week is the 3 1/2 years of Yeshua's ministry. Yeshua confirmed a covenant, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed, the Messiah was cut off, and the daily sacrifices ceased, and have remained so for nearly 2000 years.

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Oh, I did misunderstand Bracy. I see what you are talking about. Thanks

muster ag,

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Why even have a "wrath" at all?

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That is a very good question muster ag. The reason is because of God's character or attributes.

One of His attributes is Absolute Justice.

His Justice demands that disobedience against His Laws be punished. Just like a judge on the bench today. Can you imagine a judge today that would let a person guilty of a horrible crime go free?
No way! God operates the same way because He is completely Just. In His Justice He displays Love also in the following verse:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of God abideth on Him.

Justice has two poles. Mercy and Wrath

God's Justice is satisfied because of His provision. Jesus Christ paid the penalty (spiritual death). Col. 2:14

Therefore God is:

1. Just to forgive. Romans 8:1
2. Just to condemn. John 3:18

[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/23/2006 6:17p).]

The Scriptures seem to indicate that, following the confirmation of the covenant of peace between Israel and the Anti-Christ, there will be peace for a period of time, but drastic changes will occur after three and one half years.

The Anti-Christ will demand that the people worship him as God. The Jewish people will then break the covenant, for just as they would not accept Jesus as God, neither will they accept the Anti-Christ as God.

Further evidence for a rebuilt Temple in the Tribulation is found in 2 Thess. 2:3-4. "For that day shall not come , except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin (the Anti-Christ) be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is call God, or that is worshiped, so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

For this event to transpire, another Temple must be built in Jerusalem.

South Zone,


To you the scriptures seem to be a big puzzle book, and you read it like tea leaves, seeing this and that current event in it as if you are trying to “read the times” for the coming of the events that will bring Christ, but all of this is really contrary to what Christians are called to do, and be, and spend their time doing, and Christ even said that no one will know when He will come again, and that it will be like a thief in the night, yet you sit around and read the Bible looking for all this stuff. You seem to have a fascinating side track thing going on there, and it seems to have consumed you, defined your faith, and made you like an eschatological cultist of sorts. It seems that anything that does all of this to a Christian by it’s very nature must be wrong.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 2/24/2006 12:12a).]

Notafraid,

Why would it bother you to study the events surrounding the Lord's return?

There is a crown promised to those who look for and love his appearing.

2 Tim. 4:8

[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/24/2006 9:30a).]

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Why would it bother you to study the events surrounding the Lord's return?

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I have studied it, but there is a difference in studying something, and having it consume you. It has basically swallowed up your Christianity, and it’s nothing but a big side tracking from things. Does it help you love and serve your wife more (or your neighbor more), does it help you sin less? Does it get you closer to the Lord, and help you walk with him? If you were honest about it, I beleive you’d have to say no…


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 2/24/2006 9:34a).]

Again, if you insist on interpreting scripture outside of it Hebraic context, then misinterpretation is inevitable, and recognizing prophetic events becomes impossible.

For instance, do you realize that that the "mark of the beast" already exists, and that those who do not have the mark are unable to buy or sell? This is already a reality.

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For instance, do you realize that that the "mark of the beast" already exists, and that those who do not have the mark are unable to buy or sell? This is already a reality.

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No, I did not know that. Where does that exist now Bracy?

South Zone:

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No, I did not know that. Where does that exist now Bracy?

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The Hebrew word for "mark" or "sign" is "ot". It is the same word used in Genesis 4:15:

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Genesis 4:15: And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark ("ot") upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

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It is also the same word used in Exodus 31:13:

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Exodus 31:13: Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign ("ot") between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.

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Revelation chapter 7 tells us that those who serve YHWH bear the sign of YHWH, while Revelation chapter 13 tells us that those who serve the beast bear the sign of the beast.

Only those who bear the sign of the beast can buy or sell on Shabbat.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/24/2006 9:51a).]

Bracy, maybe I am missing something, that doesn't say that the mark 666 is a reality today does it?

South Zone:

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Bracy, maybe I am missing something, that doesn't say that the mark 666 is a reality today does it?

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I talked about the number 666 in a previous thread:

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=578796&page=2&forum_id=15

Again, we cannot interpret the archetypal symbols used in Revelation in a literal fashion. For instance, should we interpret that a literal sword comes out of Yeshua's mouth? Of course not, the "sword" is an archetypal symbol for the Torah. We can't pick and choose what symbols we will interpret literally, and what we will interpret symbolically as if we're going through a cafeteria line: "I'll have some of this, and some of that." It's either all literal, or all symbolic.

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Revelation 13:16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

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In the Greek, the word “or” can also mean “and” or “also.” In other words, it’s not an “either/or” as is commonly thought, but should be understood as "and." The “mark” is on the hand *AND* forehead. Now those familiar with the Torah should recognize these symbols as false tefillin:

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Deuteronomy 6:8: "You shall bind them as a sign ("ot") on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

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Whenever we read the “New Testament” scriptures, we have to use the “Old Testament” as our dictionary for defining words. The Tanakh was the only “bible” that existed in the time of the apostles, therefore their words and teachings must be understood and interpreted in light of the only “bible” that existed in their day. This requires us to also understand the meaning behind the original Hebrew words that were translated into Greek.

The Orthodox Jewish B’rit Chadashah does a very good job of translating Revelation back into its original Hebrew:

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Revelation 13:16a: And it causes all, the ketanim (small) and the Gedolim (great), both the ashirim (rich) and aniyim (poor), the bnei Chorin (freedmen) and avadim (slaves), that to them should be given a tav [mark]….

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According to the Orthodox Jewish B’rit Chadashah:

“Rechen (calculate) the Gematria to discover the identity of the anti-messiah: Hinei! Noon, then Resh, then Cholam Vav, then Final Noon spells ‘Nero;’ plus Koof, then Samech, then Resh spells ‘Caesar;’ Gematria of “Nero Caesar” totals Shesh Me’ot V’shishim Vashesh (six hundred and sixty-six, 666) the “marked for death” tattoo number and name of the final anti-moshiach who will give those doomed to be his property this stamp of his ownership on their persons in return for their giving them Moshiach’s loyalty, not to the Moshiach, but to him, thus sealing their fate.”

Revelation 13:16 is speaking about a “mark” or “false tefillin” for the unrighteous, while Revelation 7:3 speaks of a “mark” or ”true tefillin” for the righteous.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/24/2006 10:30a).]

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One of His attributes is Absolute Justice.

His Justice demands that disobedience against His Laws be punished.

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Thanks for the dialogue, South.

I could follow your logic if the justice was doled out in a consistent manner. If what you are saying is true, then bad stuff would not happen to good people and bad people would not go unpunished. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

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and bad people would not go unpunished.

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Why must bad people be punished immediately for there to be justice? On judgement day, the LORD will give to everyone according to their deeds.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

quote:

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“Rechen (calculate) the Gematria to discover the identity of the anti-messiah: Hinei! Noon, then Resh, then Cholam Vav, then Final Noon spells ‘Nero;’ plus Koof, then Samech, then Resh spells ‘Caesar;’ Gematria of “Nero Caesar” totals Shesh Me’ot V’shishim Vashesh (six hundred and sixty-six, 666) the “marked for death” tattoo number and name of the final anti-moshiach who will give those doomed to be his property this stamp of his ownership on their persons in return for their giving them Moshiach’s loyalty, not to the Moshiach, but to him, thus sealing their fate.”

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Are you talking about this: "Do you want me to crucify your king?" The answer of the chief priests, "We have no king but Caesar" (Jn 19:15)

What does that have to do with commerce today? The Sabbath? C'mon Bracy I'm an engineer. Spell it out for me.

Bracy likes to insert words, and change meanings of words.

So this: If anyone does not have the mark of the beast, he cannot buy or sell.

Becomes this: If anyone does not have the mark of the beast, he cannot buy or sell on the sabbath.



Apollos.ws
think.learn.know

"Why must bad people be punished immediately for there to be justice? On judgement day, the LORD will give to everyone according to their deeds."

Because, the threat of an unprovable afterlife justice may not work for some people. To some, each culture's religious prophecies are taken into context. It would be better if the Justice you speak of, was a little more apparent in real life situations.

I got that much. But I still don't know what the mark of Caesar is that everyone must have in order to do business on the Sabbath today.

Are you saying the Julian calendar is the mark of the beast? And that the Julian calendar (mark of the beast) is allowing modern day Christians to do work on the Sabbath?

I haven't "inserted" anything, but it isn’t surprising that you would think so.

The Sabbath is an ot. Circumision is an ot.

Revelation 13:18 tells us:

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Revelation 13:18: Here is wisdom. (Hebrew: choqmah) Let him that hath understanding (Hebrew: binah) count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

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Using the Tanakh as my dictionary to define terms, choqmah is defined by Psalms 111:10:

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Psalms 111:10: The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise endureth for ever.

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Binah is defined by Psalm 119:34:

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Psalms 119:34: Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

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If you’re not doing His commandments then you don’t have choqmah and binah which are the requirements to understand Revelation.

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Revelation 19:15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

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What is the sword that comes out of Yeshua’s mouth? It is the Torah, the same “sword” spoken of in Ezekiel 9:

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Ezekiel 9:1-5: He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man [with] his destroying weapon in his hand. And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

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Six men, one with an inkhorn who puts an ot on the faithful, the other five are going to go and do the killing. Five men, Five books of the Torah, the same five husbands of the woman at the well in John chapter 4. The sixth man would put a tav upon the righteous. Tav is the last letter of the Hebrew Alef-Bet (alphabet) and the first letter of the word Torah. Tav is symbolic of the Torah. Revelaton 19:15 and Ezekiel 9 are describing the very same event.

The “marks” of Revelations 7 and Revelation 13 are not literal marks, they are true and false tefillin. They are symbolic, just as they were in Deuteronomy 6:8. If you are wearing God’s tefillin, then you are keeping the Sabbath, and cannot buy or sell. If you are wearing the tefillin of the beast, then you are not keeping the Sabbath, and you can buy or sell. If you are wearing the tefillin of the beast, then you are not observing Shabbat, Pesach, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, or Sukkot, but have substituted these observances with pagan observances which have no meaning, and you will lack the wisdom and understanding to interpret Revelation and recognize the events it describes.

That's the whole point of Revelation 13 -- if you are observing the pagan holidays and not the biblical holidays... if you are not observing God's commandments, but are observing the commandment's of men... then you are wearing false tefillin -- the mark of the beast -- and Yeshua's coming will be "as a thief in the night" to you.

Who is the "harlot of Babylon" spoken of in Revelation 17 and 18? It's not difficult to figure out, she's the same "harlot" mentioned throughout the entire Tanakh, the same harlot who was unfaithful to her Marriage Covenant.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/24/2006 12:39p).]

Notafraid,

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To you the scriptures seem to be a big puzzle book

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No, it is nothing like a puzzle book to me. I laid out a series of prophetic events for you to examine.

That may all seem like a puzzle to you since you may not be familiar with what the Bible says concerning many of those events. But it all comes from the inspired Word of God.

[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/24/2006 6:38p).]

South Zone

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No, it is nothing like a puzzle book to me. I laid out a series of prophetic events for you to examine.

That may all seem like a puzzle to you since you may not be familiar with what the Bible says concerning many of those events. But it all comes from the inspired Word of God.

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No the Dispensationalist does view eschatological text in the scripture as a big puzzle book of events, but they are more of a picture book than a puzzle book, a picture of spiritual event’s in time, a vision, a hyperbole. You do not interpret all of it literally, just enough to search history like a puzzle book, but then you switch to saying that some things are interpreted as symbolic, all inconsistently. For example some places, chariots spears, and arrows are seen as bullets, and tanks, and guns. Your hermeneutic is flawed and inconsistent, because you apply 20th century American white guy to interpret ancient Jewish eschatological text. Some if which is clearly Hebrew colloquialisms!

Heck, even Hal Lindsey, perhaps the worlds best known advocate of a "pre-trib rapture," admits that his belief in such is not based on the plain literal meaning of the scriptures.

Lindsey admits that he cannot "point to any single verse that clearly says the rapture will occur before… the tribulation." (The Rapture by Hal Lindsey p. 32). Instead Lindsey claims "pretribulationism is based largely on arguments from inference and silence." (p. 31).

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/25/2006 1:12a).]