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Then how about you provide an "exegesis" of these passages that is consistent among all of them? Anyone can say "wrong again," but you provided no evidence to support your claim.

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Romans 1:1-17 - Greetings.
Romans 1:18-32 - God's Wrath Against Mankind.
Romans 2:1-16 - The Romans, both Jew and Gentile, are also under God's wrath because of sin.
Romans 2:17-29 - Jews and Gentiles and relation to the Law.
Romans 3:1-2 - Advantage of being a Jew.
Romans 3:3-8 - The faithfulness of God is not dependent on our faithfulness or lack there of.
Romans 3:9-18 - No one is righteous.
Romans 3:19-20 - The purpose of the Law is to convict all of sin and does not bring about righteousness.
Romans 3:21-21 - Righteousness is apart from the Law and is through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 - Abraham justified by faith apart from the Law.



Romans 2:13 - for it is not the hearers[202] of the Law[3551] who are just[1342] before[3844] God[2316], but the doers[4163] of the Law[3551] will be justified.[1344]

[202] - akroates; from the same as 201(akroaterion); a hearer.
[3551] - nomos; from nemo (to parcel out); that which is assigned, hence usage, law.
[1342] - dikaios; from 1349(dike); correct, righteous, by implication innocent. [3844] - para: a primitive preposition; from beside, by the side of, by, beside.
[2316] - theos; of uncertain origin; God, a god.
[4163] - poietes; from 4160(poieo); a maker, a doer.
[1344] - dikaioo; from 1342(dikaios); to show to be righteous, declare righteous.

Exegesis: It is not the people who hear that which is assigned by God (the Law) who are righteous before God, but the doers of that which is assigned by God (the Law) who are shown to be righteous.

Paraphrase: Hearing the Law of God is not enough, you must obey the law to be righteous before God.

Which begs the question: Who are these "doers of the Law"?

Romans 2:1-16 - The Romans, both Jew and Gentile, are also under God's wrath because of sin.

We see that those who hear the law as well as those who have not heard the law will both be judged by the law because those who hear the law know the law as do those who haven't heard the law. For the latter, God has written the law on their hearts, and their consciences will testify against them.

So this means that there are no "doers of the law". As we go on, we see that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and we also see that because of this no one is shown to be righteous by observing the law. This brings us to Romans 3:20:

Romans 3:19-20 Now[1161] we know[3609a] that whatever[3745] the Law[3551] says[3004], it speaks[2980] to those[3588] who are under[1722] the Law[3551], so[2443] that every[3956] mouth[4750] may be closed[5420] and all[3956] the world[2889] may become[1096] accountable[5267] to God[2316]; because[1360] by the works[2041] of the Law[3551] no[3756,3956] flesh[4561] will be justified[1344] in His sight[1799]; for through[1223] the Law[3551] comes the knowledge[1922] of sin.[266]

[1161] – de; a primitive word; but , and , now, (a connective or adversative particle).
[3609a] - oida; perfect of 1491a (eidon); to have seen or perceived, hence to know.
[3745] – hosos; from 3739 (hos); how much, how many.
[3551] – See Above.
[3004] – lego; a primitive verb; to say.
[2980] – laleo; from lalos(talkative); to talk.
[3588] – ho/he/to; the definite article; the.
[1722] – en; a primitive preposition denoting position and by implication instrumentality; in, on, at by, with.
[2443] – hina; a primitive conjunction denoting purpose, definition or result; in order that, that, so that.
[3956] – pas; a primitive word; all, every.
[4750] – stoma; a primitive word; the mouth.
[5420] – phrasso; from a root (phrag-); to fence in, to stop.
[2889] – kosmos; a primitive word; order, the world.
[1096] – ginomai; from a primitive root (gen-); to come into being, to happen, to be come.
[5267] – hupodikos; from 5259(hupo) and 1349(dike); brought to trial, answerable to.
[2316] – See Above.
[1360] – dioti; from 1223(dia) and 3754(hoti); on the very account that, because, inasmuch as.
[2041] – ergon; from a primitive verb (erdo – to do); work
[3756, 3956] – ou/ouk/ouch; a primitive word; not, no. – pas; a primitive word; all, every.
[4561] – sarx; a primitive word; flesh.
[1344] – See Above.
[1799] – enopios; from 1722(en) and ops(the eye, face); in sight of, before.
[1223] – dia; a primitive preposition; through, on account of, because of.
[1922] – epignosis; from 1921(epiginosko); recognition, knowledge.
[266] – hamartia; from 264(hamartano); a sin, failure.

Exegesis: Now, we are perceiving that how much that which is assigned by God (the Law) says, it says to those under that which is assigned by God (the Law) in order that all mouths are stopped and all the world becomes answerable to God; because by working that which is assigned by God (the Law) no flesh will be shown to be righteous in his eyes; through that which is assigned by God (the Law) comes recognition of sin.

Paraphrase: Now, we know that which God’s law says, it says to those who are under the authority of the law so that every mouth will be silenced and the whole world will become answerable to God. Because by doing the Law of God no man will be shown to be righteous in God’s eyes. Through the Law of God comes the recognition of sin.

Aggie4Life02:

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Exegesis: It is not the people who hear that which is assigned by God (the Law) who are righteous before God, but the doers of that which is assigned by God (the Law) who are shown to be righteous.

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This is correct. At Mount Sinai, we promised to hear and obey:

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Exodus 24:7: And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

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The Hebrews words for “do” and “be obedient” are ”asah” and ”sh’ma,” respectively. Strong’s defines these words as:

asah (Strong’s #06213): to do, work, make, produce.
sh’ma (Strong’s #08085): to hear, listen to, obey

At Mount Sinai, we made a solemn promise to not only hear, but obey. Yeshua reminded us of our vow when He said:

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Luke 11:28: But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear (“sh’ma”) the word of God, and keep (“asah”) it.

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Yeshua reaffirmed the words of the Torah and reminded us of our vows and of our obligation to abide by the Covenant.

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We see that those who hear the law as well as those who have not heard the law will both be judged by the law because those who hear the law know the law as do those who haven't heard the law. For the latter, God has written the law on their hearts, and their consciences will testify against them.

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Here, you have made a jump to a faulty conclusion. Those on whom God has written the Law on their hearts are not those who merely hear the words of the Law, but those who also do it. If they’re not doing it, it isn’t in their hearts.

What if I said that I’ll gladly come over to your house to mow and edge your lawn, trim your edges, rake your leaves, and scrub and clean your house from top to bottom? Then, what I said: “Now, I’m not going to actually do it, it’s just ‘in my heart’ to do it.” Would that be meaningful at all to you?

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Exegesis: Now, we are perceiving that how much that which is assigned by God (the Law) says, it says to those under that which is assigned by God (the Law) in order that all mouths are stopped and all the world becomes answerable to God; because by working that which is assigned by God (the Law) no flesh will be shown to be righteous in his eyes; through that which is assigned by God (the Law) comes recognition of sin.

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Here, you’ve failed to show how your interpretation of this passage does not contradict your previous interpretation of Romans 2:13. You just finished saying that it is those who not only hear but do the Law who are just before God, but now you turn around and contradict yourself by saying that "by working that which is assigned by God (the Law) no flesh will be shown to be righteous in his eyes."

I asked for an interpretation that was consistent with both verses, not individual interpretations of each verse which contradict each other.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 1/27/2006 8:48p).]

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Here, you’ve failed to show how your interpretation of this passage does not contradict your previous interpretation of Romans 2:13. You just finished saying that it is those who not only hear but do the Law who are just before God, but now you turn around and contradict yourself by saying that "by working that which is assigned by God (the Law) no flesh will be shown to be righteous in his eyes."

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It’s two different contexts. In Chapter two he is making a point that Jews who don’t obey the law are no better off than Gentiles whom they have judged. The point here is not to set up a continuing doctrine of Justification by the law, so there is no contradiction when he does say that later. The problem with the Jews that he was addressing was that they thought they were privileged before God by the possessing of the law. He speaks in the verses in chapter three of the fact that their sins are uncovered, and condemned by the Law, not hidden and condoned by it. No one has grounds to appeal on, Jew of Gentile, but every mouth is stopped, guilty before God. No one obeyed the Law perfectly, that is why the sacrificial system was instituted. It was not to compensate for any slack in obedience of the law, but it was to continually show the death that they deserved by failing to uphold it. It was in that way a tutor that leads to the ultimate empty handedness that we all come to Christ with, because we are all undone, either by the law on Gentiles hearts, or to the Jew that was under it as a revelation. That obedience to the Law never could justify anyone, because no one could pull it off. Telling someone that the doers of the law are righteous is like telling them that it’s really high jumping that gets you to the moon. Chapter Three tells us of the “righteousness of God” which is what we really need. Someone to jump to the moon for us.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 1/28/2006 12:37a).]

Notafraid:

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It’s two different contexts.

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No, it’s two different sets of law being referred to: the Written Torah of God and the “Oral Torah” of the Pharisees.

Here is how the verses should be understood:

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Romans 2:12-13: For all who have sinned without the Law (not keeping the Mosaic Law, because they wanted their own standard of righteousness) will also perish without the Law (lose their share in the world to come since they were intent on giving up Mosaic Law so that they could have their own standard); and all who have sinned under the law (Pharisaic law) will be judged by the Law (the Mosaic Law, because it will find them guilty of reforming it), for not the hearers of the Law (the Mosaic Law) are just before Elohim (those who say it but do not do it), but the doers of the Law (the Mosaic Law) will be justified (those who say it *AND* do it).

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Romans 3:19-20: Now we know that whatever the Law (The Mosaic Law) says, it speaks to those who are under the law (Pharisaic law), that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the law (Pharisaic law) no flesh shall be justified in His sight; for through the Law (The Mosaic Law) comes the knowledge of sin.

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Note that Paul says that through the Mosaic Law comes the knowledge of sin. This is consistent with 1 John 3:4:

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1 John 3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

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It is the Mosaic Law which defines "sin." In other words, "sin" is transgression of the Mosaic Law.

"Works" are what Yeshua refers to as "bearing fruit." "Works of the law" does not refer to obedience of the Written Torah, but refers to ma'aseh hatorah -- a Jewish term for obedience of Rabbinic halachot, takanot, minhagim, and ma'asim.

With this understanding, we can better understand what James meant when he said:

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James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works (i.e. "bearing fruit," "obedience of the written Torah," being a doer of the Law) a man is justified, and not by faith only (i.e. being a hearer only).

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This view is also consistent with Galatians 2:16:

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Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law (Pharisaic law), but by the faith of Jesus Christ (the Mosaic Law), even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ (the Mosaic Law), and not by the works of the law (Pharisaic law): for by the works of the law (Pharisaic law) shall no flesh be justified.

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"The Faith of Jesus Christ" means obedience of the written Torah commandments because those are His commandments. Pharisaic law is not.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 1/28/2006 2:54a).]

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I asked for an interpretation that was consistent with both verses, not individual interpretations of each verse which contradict each other.

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Exegesis is extracting meaning from the text based on the words used. That is what I did. You don't like the exegesis of the text because it does not fit with your world view. Therefore, you must "interpret" the text in light of your world view and what you think is consistent with your preconceived notions about what the text says.

That is exacly why I said you practice eisegesis. You import things like a distiction between Oral Torah and Written Torah that isn't anywhere in the text, and is just arbitrary on your part. You also try to make a false distinction between obedience to the Law and works of Law.

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Here, you have made a jump to a faulty conclusion. Those on whom God has written the Law on their hearts are not those who merely hear the words of the Law, but those who also do it. If they’re not doing it, it isn’t in their hearts.

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Wrong again, read what the text says:

Romans 2:14-15 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

If God only writes his law on the hearts of the Gentiles who do the law, how is it that their conscience will bear witness both against them, and for them? If only the doers of the law have the law on their hearts, their conscience would not bear witness against them, because they would be doing the law, as you suppose. No, this passage is making it clear that God has written his law on every man's heart, that is why deep down, everyone knows what is right and wrong. And therefore can be held accountable to God.

[This message has been edited by Aggie4Life02 (edited 1/28/2006 8:14a).]

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Exegesis is extracting meaning from the text based on the words used. That is what I did. You don't like the exegesis of the text because it does not fit with your world view. Therefore, you must "interpret" the text in light of your world view and what you think is consistent with your preconceived notions about what the text says.

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I provided an exegesis that is consistent among all four verses. I asked you to give me your own. So far, you've provided me with interpretations of two of the four verses. Don't forget to include the other two.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 1/28/2006 9:20a).]