Basic Catholic/Protestant Differences

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ibmagg
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Mrs. Lovelight-isn't it great! Anybody who hadn't figured that out had to be brain dead.

As yours discussions go on, the more obvious it is that the Catholic priest who spoke in Salt lake City nailed it down-"It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days." No in between!

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 1/11/2006 9:16p).]
Guadaloop474
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quote:
The miracles you allude to I know nothing about. And how can you attach a healing ministry to the departed Mary? Where would that come from


http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=491&id_rubrique=491

Lone - Check out the link above for cures from Lourdes, a place JPII visited right before his death. The cures come from the same person that they came from in Acts, when Peter raised Jairus' dead daughter - from God. God delegates!!

If I thought that people in heaven were "dead" and not living, like the Bible says (God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING), then I would be an atheist, not a Christian.

[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 1/11/2006 9:17p).]
Notafraid
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quote:

It is amazing how many protestants feel threatened by Mary's position of honor within the church.


I don’t feel “threatened”, I feel sorry for people who are duped by this medieval stuff… Marianism was once condemned by the catholic church, yet now it is expressed in the Lady of Guadalupe stuff.
Guadaloop474
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Mother of the King

At the Annunciation, Mary's words help define her relationship to her Son and Saviour. When the Archangel Gabriel announced that she was chosen to be the Mother of God, Mary replied humbly, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38). The very conspicuous word in this reply is 'handmaid' which means 'servant'. In the Old Testament, one thousand years previously, Queen Bathsheba petitioned King David to allow Solomon, their child, to become King over Solomon's half-brother, Adonijah. When Bathsheba reached the King's room, she "bowed in homage to the king, who said to her, 'What do you wish?' She answered him: 'My lord, you swore to me your handmaid by the Lord, your God, that my son Solomon should reign after you and sit upon your throne.'…The king swore, 'As the Lord lives, who has delivered me from all distress, this very day I will fulfill the oath I swore to you by the Lord, the God of Israel, that your son Solomon should reign after me and should sit upon my throne in my place.'" (1 Kings 1:16-17, 1 Kings 1:29-30).

The passage serves as direct prophesy to Christ who was in the line of David and who became King of kings. It also serves as a striking parallel to the Annunciation in the New Testament. Both Mary and Bathsheba are called 'handmaids', indicating their relationship to their Kings; that is, not equal to but servants of the King. In the royal realm, a King can only really ascend to his throne through a proper and true King and Queen. If the Eternal Father is a King, and the Son is truly a King, then it is only fitting and becoming that the Mother of the King should also be a Queen. For both Bathsheba and Mary, both were mothers of Kings: Bathsheba was the mother of King Solomon and Mary is the Mother of Christ the King. The beauty of God's revelation is indeed awesome and majestic when one considers the magnificent transposition of supplication by the two mothers. In the Old Testament, it is Bathsheba who asks her King for her Son to reign, while in the New Testament, it is the Eternal King who asks Mary.

Similarly, later when Solomon becomes King, the full parallel is realized. Bathsheba intercedes with her son King Solomon just as Mary does at the wedding feast at Cana with Jesus (Cf. John 2:3-6). Neither Christ nor Solomon refused their mothers' intercession: "Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you." (1 Kings 2: 20-21). If the sinful Bathsheba could make such a request and command such a response, Our Lord would not likely deny His own Mother.

Just before King Solomon uttered those prophetic words, the King stood up to meet his mother, paid her homage, sat down upon his thrown, and provided a throne for his mother, "who sat at his right hand" (1 Kings 2:19). Sitting at someone's right hand implies great power (Cf. Luke 22:69). Is God trying to suggest that Mary sits at the right hand of Jesus as Bathsheba sat at the right hand of Solomon? Indeed, recall the ambition of the Apostles James and John when they asked that Jesus grant them seats at His left and right hand. Jesus' response was indeed an appropriate one, ... "to sit at my right or my left is not mine to give but is for those for whom it has been prepared… Whoever wishes to be great among you will be your servant, whoever wishes to be the first among you will be the slave of all. (Mark 10:40-44). Jesus said the greatest must be servant of all, and the greatest servant of the Master, the 'handmaid of the Lord' at His right hand, was the servant of the Servant for thirty years of His life.

Queen of the King

In Holy Writ, there are a number of comparisons and prophesies made between events and people in the Old Testament and Christ in the New Testament. Unfortunately, these exegeses often by-pass the numerous instances in the Old Testament where valid comparisons between Old Testament women and Mary can also be made. Consider the case of Queen Esther.

In the twelfth year of the reign of King Ahasuerus, a decree of extermination was issued against the Jews. Queen Esther, who had kept her Jewish identity hidden from the king, was overcome with grief since her cousin, who raised her, was a known Jew. The Queen wanted to petition the King for her cousin Mordecai's release, but she could not do so since, to approach the king unsummoned, could be punishable by death. Esther's love for her cousin, however, compelled her to take the risk. When the King saw that Esther approached unsummoned, he was angry. Seeing his Queen's distress, however, he took pity on her and said, "Take heart. You will not die; our order only applies to ordinary people" (Esther 5:13-14). Centuries later, the holy family would set out for Bethlehem to be registered in the census of Caesar Augustus. Indeed, it was ironic that King Ahasuerus would not enforce the law on a tainted Queen because she was not 'ordinary', yet how unordinary Mary was, but how ordinary she made herself by submitting to the imperial edict. And not only did Mary submit to it, but she did so humbly and without ingratitude or insult. It was God's will and so Mary obeyed without question.

"Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace. And it happened when the king saw Esther the queen standing in the court, she obtained favour in his sight; and the king extended to Esther the golden sceptre which was in his hand. So Esther came near and touched the top of the sceptre. Then the king said to her, 'What is troubling you, Queen Esther? And what is your request? Even to half of the kingdom it will be given to you'" (Esther 5:1-3). There are a number of details to remark in comparing Queen Esther and Our Lady.

The first thing to appreciate is that both Queen Esther and Mary found 'favour with God'. In the Old Testament, "the king loved Esther more than all the women, and she found favour and kindness with him more than all the virgins, so that he set the royal crown on her head and made her queen…" (Esther 2:17) In the New Testament, the Archangel greeted Mary and said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favour with God" (Luke 1:30). If a virgin is found the favour of a mere human king and made queen because of this favour, are we to expect any less from God Himself was so part of Mary in her womb - 'bone of her bones and flesh of her flesh' (Cf. Genesis 2:23)?

"And what is your request?" (Esther 5:1-3). "They have no wine" (John 2:3). Esther asked if the King would come to the banquet she prepared for him. Mary's request was directed toward the bride and groom at the wedding banquet at Cana. Both involved intercession and both requests were answered. In the Book of Esther, the King is very generous with his queen, promising her half of his kingdom (Cf. Esther 7:2). In the Gospel of John, Jesus shows just indeed how much He loves and honours His mother. He demonstrates it quite conclusively in the power of her influence by granting her request EVEN THOUGH his hour "has not yet come" (John 2:3). The only time Jesus changes His 'timetable' occurred at the request of His Blessed Mother.

Is not God more generous than human kings? Is he not more gracious, loving, and giving than a mere mortal man? Yes He is. In fact, not only is this proper and appropriate view of God appeal to our natural reason, it is also biblically revealed. Christ reminds us that He is the ultimate source of goodness, and gently chastises his listeners for thinking that God is somehow less just or gracious than his fallen children: "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!" (Matthew 7:11). If a fallen and 'evil' king honours and venerates his own mother by offering her so much, are we to expect any less from a perfect, loving, and good God?

Notafraid
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Well concerning Mary, the pope has declared that you must have a feast!

“the soul of the Blessed Virgin, in its creation and infusion into the body, was endowed with the grace of the Holy Spirit and preserved from original sin; and also in favor of the feast and veneration of the conception of the Virgin Mother of God, which, as is manifest, was instituted in keeping with that pious belief. So we command this feast to be observed under the censures and penalties contained in the same Constitutions.

And at this feast you are to venerate and worship, or else, if you are against it, or dare question it:

"And therefore, against all and everyone of those who shall continue to construe the said Constitutions and Decrees in a manner apt to frustrate the favor which is thereby given to the said doctrine, and to the feast and relative veneration, or who shall dare to call into question the said sentence, feast and worship, or in any way whatever, directly or indirectly, shall declare themselves opposed to it under any pretext whatsoever…

Well, you get in trouble….

What is the object of worship?


“Now inasmuch as whatever pertains to sacred worship is intimately connected with its object…made it their aim not only to emphasize the object with the utmost zeal.

Why the church fathers new… In fact, they had this right at the center of their hearts, actually contending with one another to preach and teach about her wonderful ways… And lets not forget her most renowned victory over Satan!

“The Fathers and writers of the Church, well versed in the heavenly Scriptures, had nothing more at heart than to vie with one another in preaching and teaching in many wonderful ways the Virgin's supreme sanctity, dignity, and immunity from all stain of sin, and her renowned victory over the most foul enemy of the human race.”

They wrote about her when they wrote about:

“in that ark of Noah, in the ladder which Jacob saw reaching from the earth to heaven, by whose rungs the angels of God ascended and descended, and on whose top the Lord himself leaned', in that bush which Moses saw in the holy place burning on all sides, which was not consumed or injured in any way but grew green and blossomed beautifully, “

In all of these teachings they were teaching about Mary! After all, she is the one who overcame the evil one!

“Eve listened to the serpent with lamentable consequences; she fell from original innocence and became his slave. The most Blessed Virgin, on the contrary, ever increased her original gift, and not only never lent an ear to the serpent, but by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one… she crushed the poisonous head of the serpent.”

This is all true, according to the declaration of the infallible pope! Therefore you must obey and continually do this:

“venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard. “

For to praise her, well:

“To praise her all the tongues of heaven and earth do not suffice.”

Now, if any of you Roman Catholic’s dare to deny any of this doctrine, even in your heart! The infallible Pope, head of the church declares this!

“Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.”


http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm
Bracy
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texag_89:

quote:
I am not sure what Unity you are referring to, however when The Good Shepherd refers to Unity, his is referring to membership/belonging in One Flock - To be in Communion with Him and His Church He established on Earth.... Remember, He left us The Church, The Church then left us the Cannon of Scripture, the Universal Catholic Church - Christ's Church.:


I'm sorry, but I don't think you have the foggiest idea of what the "church" is.

Let me fill you in:

In identifying the term “church,” we need to make sure we identify it in the same way that it would have been understood to the 1st-century audience. Remember: this audience did not have a “New Testament” at this time, the only scriptures which existed were those of the Tanakh (“Old Testament”).

The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia which means “a gathering,” or “an assembly of people for a common purpose.” It is found twice in Matthew, but is completely absent in all of the other gospels, as well as both epistles of Peter. However, Paul uses the word in all but two of his epistles, and it is found 20 times in the Book of Revelation. James uses the word “synagogue” for the Messianic congregation yet instructs those who are sick to call the elders of the “ekklesia,” an apparent indication that, to James, the two terms were synonymous.

In the Septuagint, the word “ekklesia” was used to translate the Hebrew word “qahal” which itself was used to designate “the congregation of Israel.” The Hebrew Tanakh also uses the word “edah” to refer to the congregation, but it is used to refer to the congregation as an informal assembly, whereas “qahal” is used to refer to a more formal representation of the community. So, both “qahal” and “edah” are used to designate “the congregation of Israel,” the word “qahal” being used to designate a formal gathering, while “edah” refers to an informal gathering. It should be noted that the Aramaic translations use the word “adatah” (note the similarity to the Hebrew word “edah”) to designate the same congregation.

It is the word “qahal” that we find in Deuteronomy 33:

quote:
Deuteronomy 33:1-4: And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words. Moses commanded us a law, [even] the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.


Here, the word “qahal” is used to refer to the “congregation of Jacob.” It is this qahal to whom “Moses charged us with a Torah.” Now notice that these words are being spoken to all 12 tribes of Israel and not just to the tribe of Judah (and Benjamin) only (i.e. “Jews”). The Torah was given to the entire qahal (“congregation”) of Israel. The qahal (“church”) owns the Torah, it is their possession, their inheritance, and their responsibility. In short, the Torah is an integral part of the qahal (“church”).

Next, we go to Joshua:

quote:
Joshua 8:35: There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.


Here we have Joshua, after the death of Moses, reading the entire book of the Torah to the qahal (“church” ) of Israel. There was “not a word of all that Moses commanded” that Joshua did not read. Notice too, that “strangers” [i.e. "aliens" ) were members of his audience, therefore showing us that *anyone* who chooses to become a member of the qahal (“congregation,” “church” ) of Israel is to receive and obey the commandments of the Torah, and not just those who are direct descendants of Abraham.

Now let’s go 900 years into the future to the book of Nehemiah:

quote:
Nehemiah 8:1-3: And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that [was] before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that [was] before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people [were attentive] unto the book of the law.


Here, we find that all the people gathered as one man at the square which is in front of the water gate, and they asked Ezra the priest to bring “the book of the Torah of Moses which YHVH had commanded to Israel,” and Ezra brought the Torah before the qahal (“church”) of Israel and all of the people listened attentively to it. So again, the qahal (“church”) has in its possession, the Torah – it listens attentively, and it obeys.

Of course, in the Greek “New Testament,” we’re not going to find the Hebrew word “qahal” we instead find the Greek word “ekklesia” because that is what was always used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word “qahal.

Here is the way that Strong’s Concordance defines the word “ekklesia:”

quote:
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven



This definition fits what we’ve just seen: an assembly of the Israelites gathered together for some common purpose – such as receiving, or hearing the words of the Torah.

The “New Testament” scriptures have been preserved for us in both Greek and in Aramaic. The Eastern Church still uses the Aramaic translation today. As noted above, the word for “church” in Aramaic is “adatah,” which is similar to the Hebrew word “edah.” Like the Greek definition for “ekklesia” above, the “adatah” can be defined as:

An assembly or congregation gathered for a common purpose.

And in Numbers 20:22, we find:

quote:
Numbers 20:22: And the children of Israel, [even] the whole congregation, journeyed from Kadesh, and came unto mount Hor.


The Hebrew word that we have here, for the “congregation” that came to Mount Hor is “edah.”

Now, let’s look at Acts 7 and Stephen’s defense before the Sanhedrin:

quote:
Acts 7:36-38: He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


Notice here that the King James Version translates the word “ekklesia” that is used here as “*church*! Stephen is telling us that the church (the ekklesia, the adatah) was at Mount Sinai receiving the “lively oracles” (The Torah).

Now, here is an interesting question: If the “church” was born at Pentecost as Christianity claims, then what is it doing out in the wilderness, receiving the Torah on Mount Sinai? The church WASN’T born at Pentecost, it was born at Mount Sinai when it received the Marriage Covenant. It was renewed at Pentecost, because formerly, we had been divorced.

Let’s look at the Book of Psalms and see what King David had to say:

quote:
Psalms 74:2: Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, Which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; {And} this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt.[NASB]


Here, David uses the word “edah” to refer to the people whom God purchased long ago, the tribe of His inheritance – obviously a reference to Israel.

Let’s look at the words of Yeshua in which He confronted bold Torah-disobedience in the community:

quote:
Matthew 18:15-17: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


First, take note that Yeshua is teaching the Torah. The Torah states that truth is established by the testimony of two or more witnesses, and not by the witness of one man alone:

quote:
Deuteronomy 19:15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.


So, when Yeshua told them to take two or three witnesses in order to resolve the matter, He was teaching Torah Law. Next, He tells them that if the offender still won’t listen, that they are to take the matter before the entire “ekklesia.” Therefore, this passage tells us that anyone that is a member of the “ekklesia” (“church,” “adatah,” “edah”) is one who will have Torah knowledge and Torah discipline which means that, if you are a member of the “church,” you are not a “Gentile” anymore, you have given up that status. You are now an “Israelite” – a Torah-obedient member of the Covenant.

Lastly, let’s look at how Paul uses the term “church:”

quote:
1 Timothy 3:15: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


Here, Paul tells us that the “church” is the “pillar and support of the truth.” What is the truth? We find it defined for us in Psalm 119:

quote:
Psalm 119:142: Thy righteousness [is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth.


The Torah is the truth, which is exactly why Paul tells us in Romans 3:31 that we don’t “void the Torah,” but we “uphold the Torah:

quote:
Romans 3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 1/11/2006 11:19p).]
Redstone
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The whole point of Mary is Christ. He is the only reason she is important and she is remembered and she is honored.

She gave birth to God and God honored her while on earth - this is not any ordinary woman. To know Mary and to honor Mary is to know and honor Christ.

Any notion that this means worship is an indication of ignorance of Marian devotion. John Paul has written beautifully on Mary, I would recommend seeking some of these writings out, starting here:
http://www.silk.net/RelEd/maryjp.htm
 
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