You people let little **** like this bother you?


My God...

KT_Ag08:

We are commanded by God to be able to discern good and evil. If the Torah is not the standard for defining good and evil, then what is? And can we find a way to apply that standard in such a way that we can all agree?

Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion?

Part of the problem of man is to insist on looking at spiritual matters through fleshly eyes. Thus sin is defined a doing things on the "thou shall not" list, or somewhat more rarely, not doing things on the "thou shall" list. But those are both attempts to fit God into a convenient, predictable, legalistic format.

But my sense is that sin is less a matter of violation of a fixed list, and more a violation of the will and purpose of God. Sin, to me, is missing the mark, getting outside the will of God. In every situation, in every decision I face, God has a will, a desire. Sin is acting outside of God's will in my decision.

The Nazis are at the door demanding whether Jews are in my house. What is God's will for me to do here? Rat out the Jews? Lie to the Nazis? Refuse to answer? Pull out a Ruger and send a few to Valhalla? Assuming that I are not in a state of wickedness that invites God's will to serve as judgment upon me, whatever God wants me to do is not a sin, and everything else is, no matter what the lists say.

But I disagree that my intentions govern whether my actions constitute sin. It is God's intention, not mine, which governs the quality, the nature, the righteousness of my action. I can sin even with the best of intentions.

You may note that my answer does not present how you know what God's will is. That is another question and I have rambled on quite enough for one post.

First of all don't lecture me about being constructive with my time or posts on an internet message board. A lot of you guys on this board are too dense and take yourselves way too seriously for me to make a point that wouldn't get ridiculed by BS rhetoric anyways. Despite this, I will throw in my 2 cents.


I believe the question was something about doing a little evil in order to do much good?


First of all, I thank God for allowing me to make choices, good/bad/evil/just choices every day. However, because God does allow us to make choices he also leaves the door open for sin in each choice we make. Believe it or not, people sin and do evil, albeit different forms and magnitudes of evil, each and every day. This includes you, me, your coworkers, family, etc.


When an opportunity does arise where a greater good can be accomplished by making a choice to do evil, one can only think or hope that as one previous poster said, the end will justify the mean.


I know this will likely lead to a totally different topic of debate but it is somewhat late on Christmas Eve and it's what I am using to back my point regardless.

We enter into what many feel is/are unjust wars (let's use Mogadishu Somalia, Sudan, and even the war in Iraq) in order to save millions and millions of people from what is in these cases unjust, oppressive, murderous, totalitarian dictatorships or other forms of government. Upon entering these wars, there is an understanding that despite the best that the world and our country has to offer, innocent lives will in fact be taken. Now let's look at this for a second. Is this not evil? Are we not taking the lives of good innocent people?

On the other hand, look at the good that is being done. The lives of millions of sick, tortured, starved and innocent people are being saved. Rather than being apathetic or idle, people take a stand. Are the lives of 100 innocent people worth saving the lives of a million others? In my opinion, the small bit of evil done is greatly outweighed by the immense good that these people accomplish.

If God didn't want us to have to sin or commit evil acts, he would have not made us imperfect. Once again the fact that we are able to choose our destiny (which sometimes means helping to determine others' destination as well) is one of the greatest gifts that God gave us.

As far as making the discretion between what exactly is good and what exactly is evil, that is a totally different topic for another night.

Thanks.

Gig Them.

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It is God's intention, not mine, which governs the quality, the nature, the righteousness of my action. I can sin even with the best of intentions.

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Ding! Ding! Ding!

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Now let's look at this for a second. Is this not evil? Are we not taking the lives of good innocent people?

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No, it's not evil. If war were inherently evil, then God is an evil God for having commanded the Israelites to wage war. Resistance to evil is not evil, but passivism in the face of evil is support of evil. Our response to evil must be resistance.

You guys are straying from a personal choice to government or society choice. That is a different level and they should not be confused.

I thought this was about personal conduct.

KT, you made a good earlier point regarding the seriousness with which people take themselves on this "impersonal board" and making statements worrying about how others "view" you and so on. It gets out of balance sometimes, but this forum is highly charged and personal sometimes.

Bracy,

"Resistance to evil is not evil, but passivism in the face of evil is support of evil. Our response to evil must be resistance."

My wife just read an article to me saying 60 years ago every state had laws making homosexual activity illegal, now it is a "right"

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A lot of you guys on this board are too dense and take yourselves way too seriously for me to make a point that wouldn't get ridiculed by BS rhetoric anyways.

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KT - Thanks for the wonderful, intelligent, Christian, and faith - building words. You are truly a wonderful addition to this board.

Now please go away...

Some of this thread reminds me of a Sunday School class where the teacher asked the question: "If Jesus were going to take a B.M, how would he say that to the disciples?"

We got into an argument over his termonology. I tried to keep a straight face through the whole thing, but ended up laughing.

I simply said. Hey, we don't know. We know He was sinless, so whatever way He said it was OK.

What would Jesus do? He would do whatever the Father told Him to do, at least that was His answer when He was here on Earth.

The whole argument made me feel like I needed to leave Sunday School and take a dump.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 12/26/2005 12:22p).]

I think that he would give a very decisive stare/look at the Nazis, or say something profound, and then they would forget to ask any other questions about any remaining Jews. It worked in the Garden of Gesthamene with the rest of the Apostles.

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KT - Thanks for the wonderful, intelligent, Christian, and faith - building words. You are truly a wonderful addition to this board.

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Thanks for proving my point. I guess you missed everything below that. But once again, thanks for proving my point. I am glad you make such great contributions yourself. Thanks though. Really, thanks.

Oh and this is a Religion and Philosophy board. Not a Christian and faith building board. I gave you my view and obviously you were too busy coming up with the little gem above to get to it. Once again, thank you so much for your insight into the conversation.

KT - If you can't be civil, then your philosophy must be pretty bad. That's not too much to ask, is it?

I was plenty civil in my post. But when you make an assumption before you read my opinion on the matter, you defeat the purpose in me making any contribution at all.

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So, does this mean that a "Christian" should never work for someone like the CIA or NSA? Is it possible for someone to be a spy without "doing a little evil?"]

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No. Of course, the better question is: is it posible to be a human without "doing a little evil?"

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I think that he would give a very decisive stare/look at the Nazis, or say something profound, and then they would forget to ask any other questions about any remaining Jews.

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Jesus = Obi Wan Kenobi

Seriously, for those who contend that honest endeavor in the service of one's country must always be good, what about those Nazis at the door? What about the guys that drove trucks full of Zyklon B? What about a KGB interrogator? More moderately, what about the guy who flips the switch on death row? Or back to where we started, an American Christian working in operations for the CIA?

I think that if you can't imagine abandoning your job, your country, even your family in the service of your faith, then maybe "faith" isn't the right word.