Let it be said that I once agreed with Notafraid.

NotA, how easy this discussion is to turn and make accusations about a person's posts on a message board. Let me attempt to answer some of your comments...

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I agree that suffering can cause people to turn away from things that they are doing, and to stop living life so thoughtlessly,

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I know you do and have spoken of it, we agree... next

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but you wield this fact like a hammer, and that is foolish. It’s like someone trying to go out and feed pigeons by taking bread, loading it in a canon, and firing it at the pigeons, then wondering why they fly away.

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...you term it as "foolish", your judgment about my means of pressing a discussion toward the spiritual aspect of suffering from AIDS... Am I foolish because you think I didn't expect the "pigeons" fly away. They didn't fly the ones who wanted to press the conversation... or vent at my comments...

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You fail to love others here.

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Now this is a judgment and a lie against a person, me, who by my posts intending to proke an impersonal discussion on the virtues or follies of an AIDS vaccine. You show me one judgment I made in the way you just judged me then I will repent and apologize.

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You are convinced that you have the truth, and you can wield it in any way you see fit.

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I claim and have claimed no such thing (I have the truth)on this opinionated issue.

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Even if you are right, you have been so impatient, unkind, and simply unloving that you have only alienated everyone who you preached your truth to.

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More judgmental grandstanding in my opinion. "here here Notafraid"
Show me impatients I have shown...
unkindness... that is purely subjective, I did ridicule the people who went over the top and say they had to puke..
unloving... show me

alienated everyone, no not everyone

people can be alienated by any debate if they look at this through their predetermined glasses

Ramblin,

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To add something else, do you think there was a spiritual value to the healings performed by Jesus and the Apostles?

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The spiritual value was by what power all physical things are subject to.

Luke 17:11- Ten Lepers Cleansed
11While He was on the way to Jerusalem, He was passing between Samaria and Galilee.
12As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him;
13and they raised their voices, saying, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
14When He saw them, He said to them, "(O)Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.
15Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice,
16and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan.
17Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine--where are they?
18"Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
19And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."

What made him really well?

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If the best way to spread the truth was to knock people down, why didn't Jesus inflict the righteous judgment of God on all sinners? Surely they deserved it as much as anyone.

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I didn't say it is the best way, nor would I take this approach for hardly any topic. Perhaps I've provoked you what you do with it is yours

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He didn't though. He forgave them and healed them.

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Some were just healed and NOT forgiven! There is no matter of opinion on this fact.

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The Apostles did likewise, and and that has been the practice of Christianity for thousands of years.

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No one is being healed in the way Jesus and the Apostles were healing!

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For every person who turns to God because of a horrible illness or situation, I can show you another that curses Him for it like Job.

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Nope Job didn't take his wife's advice! You are wrong again about the scripture.

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However, nobody curses God after being cured of a horrible disease, and many people find Him due to such a cure.

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Amen to that, that is why my argument suffers and you are th first I recall that said that. If one lives longer, more time to find God... It is why I am generally apathetic to the death penalty.

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Sometimes the loss of hope brings people to God, but more often it is the return of a hope lost forever.

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My point is the unmistakeable lie that "this life will keep going on" is shattered by AIDS, so hope cannot lie within a CURE FOR AIDS. That would be a false hope, even if Jesus himself healed you physically he commanded them to STOP SINNING.

First of all, I never said Jesus forgave the sins of all people He healed, but He did forgive the sins of some. Anyway, curing people without forgiving their sins is more relevant to this discussion anyway. An AIDS cure would work without forgiving the sins of those it cured.

Yes, Jesus called on all He healed to repent of their sins. However, many turned back to their sins. Jesus chastised many cities for receiving the miracles of God and then turning back to their sin. Any medical profession would call on their patients to stop their risky behavior, but they would give the cure anyway.

No one has been healing like the Apostles in thousands of years. However, churches across the globe continue to lay hands with the hope that such a healing could take place. The intention of 2000 years of Christianity has been to heal the sick, among other things.

You are correct that Job never renouced God like his wife wanted him to do. However, Job did curse the day he was born. He cursed God for making a righteous man like him suffer, and giving the wealth of the world to the ungodly. Job later repented his words after hearing the voice of God.

To end this ridiculously long post I will say one thing. The judgement of God is righteous and just, but no one should look forward to it being applied to anyone. Nor should anyone hope the judgement will not relent, no matter how deserved it is.

Ramblin, I appreciate your post... clarify what you mean by this

"The judgement of God is righteous and just, but no one should look forward to it being applied to anyone. Nor should anyone hope the judgement will not relent, no matter how deserved it is."

Do you mean the physical consequences of sin on Earth or the judgment of condemnation eternally?

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Do you mean the physical consequences of sin on Earth or the judgment of condemnation eternally?

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Either or both. Every Christian should realize that except for the Grace of God, both the physical consequences of sin and eternal condemnation would be applied to them. There should be nothing but pity and sorrow for people who, for whatever reason, are not spared from their sins.