OK, some of you may be surprised that I'd ask this, but it was brought up to me by someone to me a few days ago.

Some say that homosexuals were born that way, but if they remain celibate, they can live a pure Christian life and go to heaven when they die.

What about hermaphrodites? Why did God make them? Were they created NOT to have intimate relations with other people? If they were meant to do so, with whom should they have relations? Who makes the choice? Would God want them to remain celibate?

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OK, some of you may be surprised that I'd ask this, but it was brought up to me by someone to me a few days ago.

Some say that homosexuals were born that way, but if they remain celibate, they can live a pure Christian life and go to heaven when they die.

What about hermaphrodites? Why did God make them? Were they created NOT to have intimate relations with other people? If they were meant to do so, with whom should they have relations? Who makes the choice? Would God want them to remain celibate?

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I would say that I don’t know, but that if they are His that the sovereign Lord would lead that person to do what He would want them to do, and so I do not have to concern myself with knowing the answers to such riddles.

You raise an interesting point. There are some instances that scripture doesn't directly address. In those cases, one must rely on principles of scripture, the leadership of the Holy Spirit, and the wisdom of others, even then, I wouldn't be 100% sure.

But, I don't focus on the rare exceptions, but on the millions of things that are clear.

I know that modern medicine can really help these people out now. My understanding is that most hermaphrodites have a "dominant sex". That is they are hormonally one sex or the other. It should be possible to surgically repair or remove the abrrant genetalia. Also, hormone therapy could help. My opinion would be that they should choose one sex or the other, and live their life accordingly.

This seems to be a trick question.

1. As a Christian, I do not believe someone is born as a homosexual. If there were people born that way, the Bible would not speak out against it like it does.

2. Being celebate has nothing to do with entering the kingdom of heaven. You could be a homosexual accept Christ but still struggle with the lifestyle and still go to heaven.

3. This ties into 2, but there is only one way to heaven and that is through faith alone in Christ alone.

4. As for the last question. I would think that as they grew up there would be a natural tendency for one sex or the other. If they truly accept Christ, then I think God would reveal the answer to them. But Christian counseling with the parents of the young child would definately be a good thing.

aggiez

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1. As a Christian, I do not believe someone is born as a homosexual. If there were people born that way, the Bible would not speak out against it like it does.

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Think about what you are saying here....We are all born sinners. Are you saying that if we are born sinners, the Bible would not speak out against it?

Matthew 19:12 --
"For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

"Eunuch" = one who is physically incapable of coitus; a castrated man.

Edit: I would take Jesus' third example "made themselves eunuchs..." metaphorically.

[This message has been edited by Aggieology (edited 10/12/2005 8:57a).]

First of all, there are very few cases of hermaphrodites that have both a ***** and vagina, and if that is the case they can have cosmetic surgery. Most cases of hermaphrodites, they have both male and female sexual organs. But just as the other poster said, you would have a dominating sex. Being a hermaphrodite is not like being homosexual or heterosexual. Being a hermaphrodite happens at the time of conception. Most cases it is when the cells would split to become twins of opposite sexes and the cells do not split but infuse together. In a lot of case of hermaphrodites you will find two different strands of DNA. It is actually funny that you brought this topic up. There was a special on TLC about this the other night!

You think about what I am saying.

If God made a person a homosexual and then told them that homosexuality is a sin and that marriage is between a man and woman, He would be contradicting himself.

God made man in his image, Adam chose to disobey God, therefore we are born into sin. What this is refering to is a "sin nature". You can choose not to sin, Jesus chose not to sin and led the perfect life. Is it possible to live a life without sin, well of course, because Christ did it, is it likely, well no, because no one else has.

[.We are all born sinners. Are you saying that if we are born sinners, the Bible would not speak out against it?]

You can't just substitute words in the blanks.

No what I am saying if it were possible for someone to be born homosexual, then God would not speak out against. Homosexuality is spoken about in the Bible very clearly and is never acceptable.

The Bible says something to the effect of "they trade natural relations for unnatural ones"

aggiez

Let's think about this some more. What does it mean to be homosexual? A person who is sexually attracted to the same sex. Is it possible that a person would be born with a sexual attraction to the same sex? Well, maybe, maybe not. But, most don't think of new borns with having sexual attraction to anyone. But why is it that the vast majority of people are attracted to the opposite sex? It seems that it is kind of built in. This goes back to the whole nature/nurture debate. My point is that it really doesn't matter either way.

If indeed people can be born homosexual, God still says it is wrong. But the fact that God says it is wrong, doesn't mean it is not in a person's nature to be homosexual. In the same way, a person might have a pedophile nature, or a murderous nature. This isn't an excuse for sinful behavior.

The question we must ask is this? Do people sin because they are sinners, or are people sinners because they sin? I believe the bible teaches the former: We are sinners by nature. Jesus is not a pattern for us in that sense because he was born without a sin nature. Is it possible for a person to be sinless? No, it is not, because it is in his nature to sin. However, that does not get him off the hook with God.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you that even if they are born that way, they would not be off the hook.

I just wanted to point out that there is almost a zero percent chance that people are created that way. The Bible is too clear on the subject of man-woman relationships being the only natural ones and anything else being un-natural.

Society today is too quick to accept certain sins because people are "born that way". Whether it is pedophilia or a crazy person murdering someone or even a homosexual. If they can't help it because they are born that way, then they cannot be held accountable for their actions. This is totally against what the Bible teaches. That was my point. I am sure that is not what the orig poster was trying to say, but I could not let that pass with a comment on it.

aggiez

Pretty sure my wife wouldn't understand it if she caught me committing adultery, and I told her, "Listen Honey, I was born this way. I just can't help myself"...

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understand what you are saying and agree with you that even if they are born that way, they would not be off the hook.

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Why would they not be "off the hook"?? Its like creating a being to be hungry and casting them to eternal damnation if they choose to eat.



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

Bad analogy. People have to eat, they don't have to have sex to live.

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Bad analogy. People have to eat, they don't have to have sex to live.

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Perhaps, but how many 80 year old virgins do you know, gay or straight?



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

In the Catholic Church, priests take a vow of celibacy and I am sure there have been many who were chaste their whole lives.

The priest at my church is in his 70s, so I'm afraid I personally don't know any, and I certainly am not going to ask if he was celibate before he became a priest.

So once again, it isn't unrealistic, it's just rare. And it's not the same as requiring someone to live life without food or water or breathing.

Back to the topic, kinda...

Just in case we actually care about the folks we are talking about - they prefer the term intersex to hermaphrodite. At least, the one I met, all the ones she knew, and the legitimate online sources prefer it.

Hermaphrodite brings up an image of a person with both sets of complete male and female gentitalia. This is physically impossible as much of the tissue that go into either girl or boy bits comes from the same place in the fetus. Example, the scrotum is homologous to the outer labia, the fetal tissue that makes them can do one or the other or something in between, but not a full set of both.

Intersexuals with physcially non-normative bodies have 'somewhere in between' bodies. Some forms of intersexuals have external bodies of one sex but the opposite hormonal/endocrine/internal sex. Since fetal genetic tests aren't standard, many times this hormonal difference doesn't assert itself until puberty.

Intersexuals with physically ambiguous genitalia at birth are often 'assigned' a gender, which may involve gential surgery and hormonal treatments. It rarely (if ever) involves a conscious decision on the part of the intersexual being assigned.

The story of an intersexual I knew through the Houston transexual society -
Grew up male, high school football star, lots of girlfriends, the whole works. But has the 'seed', something isn't right.
Gets married, fathers children. Still troubled.
Between 30 and 40 realizes that she is gender dysphoric. Gets sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) and a legal gender change. Now she is known as Jessica. Upon hindsight, recognizes a pattern of overcompensation in her life. She had to be the biggest, toughest, manliest dude so that no one would ever suspect that she wasn't. Very typical transexual story.
After a while she notices some scars that can not be explained by the SRS. She questions her parents and learns that she was born intersexual and 'corrected' at birth with surgery and during childhood with hormone therapies.

Its a 50/50 chance, right? :/
This is the most common way that modern medicine is 'helping' these people. Most intersex advocates do believe that most children would show a tendency towards a certain gender, but some wouldn't. Some intersex don't want either/or but are happy in the middle. There are plenty of non-intersex folk who are more comfortable 'in between'.

One a side note - in a way, Jessica's intersex experience made her a transexual. Another group that is often overlooked, or vilified when noticed, by Christians.

I would definitely like to hear some Christian perspectives on transexuals and intersexuals.

Transexual meaning a cross-dresser?

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A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this. (NIV, Deuteronomy 22:5)

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Everyone are born with the right to make choices. No one can say that they were born homosexual, is there any proof that homosexuality is linked to genetics? Not that I'm aware of. People choose to be attracted to the same sex just as some people choose to be attracted to children (pediphials). I do understand that the attraction is chemical just as it is the way to be attracted to the opposite sex. But you also have the choice between right and wrong. And when you have been taught right all your life and the right that comes from the bible, yet still choose to do wrong and go against the bible, there is no doubt that you are going to hell. You also have the right to have that attraction to the same sex and choose to do what is right.

Can you tell me when you made a conscious decision to be heterosexual/homosexual? Do people wake up one morning and say "hmm...I think I'll give homosexuality a try"?

Why is it that gay youth are 2 to 3 times as likely to commit suicide? Do you believe they choose to live a life that is looked down on by society and submit themselves to humiliation, hatred, discrimination, etc etc on their own free will?



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

I said that we have a choice with everything we do. I understand that yes, someone has an attraction they can not help to the same sex. But they have a choice to act upon that attraction. As for waking up one day and decide they are homosexual, that is possible. I have a realtive who lost her husband after 30 years of marriage because he decided he was homosexual. As for the teens that commit suicide, that's a cop out. If you want to commit suicide for a choice you made then I have no pity.

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As for the teens that commit suicide, that's a cop out. If you want to commit suicide for a choice you made then I have no pity.

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I think it has to do more with the feelings of rejection, humiliation, hatred etc etc rather than being attracted to people of the same sex. Which was kind of my point that its not a conscious choice for someone to submit themselves to this type of environment, one which would drive them to killing themselves.



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

I can understand how rejection and humiliation and all that can lead one to suicide or close to it. You don't have to be homosexual to do that. I think we all went through ridicual at some point in our lives that brought us all close to suicide.

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Do people wake up one morning and say "hmm...I think I'll give homosexuality a try"?

Why is it that gay youth are 2 to 3 times as likely to commit suicide? Do you believe they choose to live a life that is looked down on by society and submit themselves to humiliation, hatred, discrimination, etc etc on their own free will

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Any chance that people who commit sin habitually, whether it be homosexuality or drugs or fornication or pornography, may be the victim of demonic obsession (differentiated from possession)?

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Any chance that people who commit sin habitually, whether it be homosexuality or drugs or fornication or pornography, may be the victim of demonic obsession

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Since everyone sins and sins continually does this mean everyone is a "victim of demonic obession"?



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

Sorry it took so long to reply, I expect this will just sink back down to the bottom, but...

Transexual does not equal transvestite. They are two completely different concepts and types of people.

Transvestites like to dress in the clothes of the opposite gender. Since women are ok wearing guys clothes now, usually the term transvestite only refers to men in women's clothing. Transvestites are men. They want to be seen as men and related to as men. They just want to 'look better' while doing it. Most transvestites are straight and fancy women, just ask Eddie Izzard.

Transexuals are people whose mental and spiritual gender does not match their physical sex. "Born into the wrong body" is a common sentiment. They seek to reconcile this different through hormonal treatments and/or surgeries. A male to female transexual before transitioning appears to be male but knows that she is intrinsically female and wants to be seen as a woman and related to as a woman.

As far as the transvestite scripture...
How do you apply that scripture in modern life? Does God detest women in pants?

b.blauser, why would you try to divide your brothers?

In addition to someone being intersex a person can also be born as a neuter sex. SOME people like this definitely migrate towards one gender, but there are those that are either fully neither (mentally and hormonally) or fully both.

It really throws a whole kink into the works of saying marriage is only between a man and a woman. There are people that can't quite BE so simply classified. Can they marry anyone? No one? The only answer I've ever heard from the right is that they have to "pick" a gender and go with that, but that's a horrible solution for some people.

Divide? No.

I had this question from a combat soldier here, and I didn't really have a good answer for him on the subject. Like NotAfraid said at the top of the thread, I don't usually try to tackle these types of questions since they're mostly a diversion tactic (chasing rabbits) in effort to avoid talking about what the person will really do with Christ.

I've found this board to be a good resource of opinion from across the spectrum of many viewpoints, so I wanted to see if anyone had some good insight on the matter.

Sorry you're offended.

I think that there is no gay gene. I also think that people can be predisposed to certain sexual practices. If there is demonic oppression on top of that, that makes it even worse. Everyone has to overcome sexual sin, whether they are hetero or homo. I had to overcome sexual sin in my life, and I just can't see giving homosexuals a pass on their sin because someone says "They just can't help it". With God, it can be overcome.

I just wanted to point out that there is almost a zero percent chance that people are created that way.

No one can say that they were born homosexual, is there any proof that homosexuality is linked to genetics? Not that I'm aware of.

I think that there is no gay gene.

Read some of these studies on factors related to homosexuality. There is pretty strong evidence that people are born gay.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus6.htm

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Read some of these studies on factors related to homosexuality. There is pretty strong evidence that people are born gay.

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Like I said before, either way, it doesn't matter. Being born gay does not excuse homosexual behavior. This is why I think it is bad argumentation to try to hinge homosexuality on nature vs. nurture arguments. That takes away the real focus of the issue.

alley,

Thanks for your comments and illuminations about "intersex" people. I have a similar story, one that made headlines in San Antonio about 15 years ago...

I sang in the HS acapella choir and noticed a fellow tenor was always moody. He had a beautiful singing voice but just seemed to be very sad and out of sorts all the time. Fast forward 10 years later and "John" comes back as "Jhonna" at the HS reunion! Made local headlines. Jhonna as it turned out was a successful Las Vegas singing act and seemed genuinely much happier than I had known her as "John" in HS. I would say that "she" eventually found out who she really was, and once that happened was a much happier person all the way around.

And please allow me to quote you (misquote, actually) for a comment to others on this thread:

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Just in case we actually care about the folks we are talking about...

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Some of the comments here about homosexuality seem very judgmental and absolute. In fact -- dare I say it -- they sound very un-Christian like. These are issues and conditions (homosexuality and such) that have been around since the time of Jesus, yet he loved them just as he loves us. He may not have approved of the lifestyle, but he loved them nonetheless.

It's all too easy to get legalistic with the Bible. There are simply too many passages that leave room for interpretations, and Lord truly knows that we and our ancestors have been doing just that for 2,000 years! Yet, there are some key messages and instructions that seem to rise above the rest. Remember "Love thy neighbor as thyself?" My favorite is from Micah (6:6-8): What does the Lord require of you but to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with your God.

It just saddens me that the tone of some the comments above seem to stray from this simple prescription for God's world. We don't have to agree with a gay lifestyle, but being condescending is not right either.

Blessings.

the bible speaks out against homosexual acts, not being homosexual

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the bible speaks out against homosexual acts, not being homosexual

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The Bible also speaks out against some heterosexual acts...who is leading the crusade against common law marriages? Where is the concern for the lost souls of such people? Funny how individuals pick and choose which sins are worthy of scrutiny just to further their own agenda.



"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."