i thought there was a story about someone who killed the unborn child of a pregnant mother, but i don't remember where it is.

Exodus 21:22

" 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows."

Exodus 20:13

"13 "You shall not murder."

i thought there was a verse specifically about someone killing an unborn child.

Exodus 21:22-24
" 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "

[e]-footnote- also/or miscarriages

what does it matter. the bible also says a child should be stoned for disobeying his parents or put to death for working on sunday.

i believe the bible to be a very questionable source of ultimate morality.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Thanks for your $0.02.

Where would you suggest we find a better source for "ultimate morality?" Perhaps you should write a Macarthur Bible and we can follow it instead. Maybe in your version, the killing of unborn babies would be morally acceptable?

Macaurthur you are referring to the OT. If you had ever read the bible, you would know that what you said is no longer the fact. Just like in our day in time and as the years pass, laws get more relaxed. The same thing was set in the OT and the NT.

Wow..

Macarthur saying he doesn't care what the Bible says...

Didn't see that one coming.

The question was asked and answered, no reason to give your opinion on how the Bible is inaccurate in your opinion.

Doesn't the media guide have a picture of Fran on page 4?

Why does it matter, he looses every away game to start the season he coaches.

Why someone with ALL the answers comes to a religion forum every day and smack the same rhetoric, I will never know.

Maybe because there is a God shaped hole in his life that cannot be filled with stuff or science or darwin or cynicism....

Ok, there is my opinion...

Now I will move on.

aggiez

"23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

so how do christians interpret these verses? should both mother and doctor be put to death?

quote:

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so how do christians interpret these verses? should both mother and doctor be put to death?

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If convicted by a jury of their peers for murder, then yes, the death penalty would be appropriate.

Keep in mind this was OT. Things weren't the same in the NT just as they aren't the same today. In the OT crime was taken very seriously. If these two men were fighting and the pregnant woman go into it and the fight caused her to have a miscarriage, the man that caused the miscarriage was to be killed. Same would go if someone killed your cow, you went and did the same thing. The OT was extremely harsh (in my words) with punishment. I have to say that i am very thankful that we do not live in OT times or this world would be A LOT less popullated!

quote:

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Keep in mind this was OT. Things weren't the same in the NT just as they aren't the same today. In the OT crime was taken very seriously. If these two men were fighting and the pregnant woman go into it and the fight caused her to have a miscarriage, the man that caused the miscarriage was to be killed. Same would go if someone killed your cow, you went and did the same thing. The OT was extremely harsh (in my words) with punishment. I have to say that i am very thankful that we do not live in OT times or this world would be A LOT less popullated!

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how do determine what parts of the OT are still applicable? it would seem that the ten commandments would be just as subject to a reinterpretation as other rules.

It would have been specified in the bible if the TC were less. The TC were the laws that God gave to the world. Some of the laws in the OT that have thus lessoned are laws of that "community" if you will. Ie, laws of the leveticans or corinthians. But the TC were the laws that God gave to EVERYONE.

You ask a question that you have proven again and again, if answered a scoffer like yourself would either never understand, never accept, or simply be unfazed by, so why should someone waste their time on such labors? There are people who have genuine objections, but then there are people like you. Here is what the NT teaches on the OT LAW. The scriptures are below it.



Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]



====================
[1] GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. ROM 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. GAL 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. JOB 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
[2] JAM 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. ROM 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. DEU 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me. EXO 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
[3] MAT 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
[4] (HEB 9) HEB 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. GAL 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. COL 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[5] 1CO 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. 2CO 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, JUD 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[6] COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. DAN 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. EPH 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.
[7] (EXO 21-22) GEN 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 1PE 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 1CO 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[8] ROM 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. EPH 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] JAM 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[10] MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. JAM 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. ROM 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
[11] ROM 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ACT 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ROM 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[12] ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. PSA 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments. 1CO 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. GAL 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[13] ROM 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ROM 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[14] JAM 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. ROM 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[15] GAL 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ROM 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: ROM 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[16] JAM 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. PSA 119:101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
[17] EZR 9:13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? PSA 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
[18] (LEV 26) 2CO 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. EPH 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. PSA 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. PSA 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
[19] GAL 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. LUK 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
[20] ROM 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 1PE 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that ill love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. PSA 34:12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? 13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. 14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. 15 The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. 16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
[21] GAL 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[22] EZE 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. HEB 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. JER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 9/7/2005 11:59a).]

summary please?

Christ is the fulfillment of the law.

Please read these excerpts from Charles Spurgeon below..
Or read the whole sermon at this link. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1325.htm

It fully answers your question and then some.

I realize it may take a little time, but Spurgeon was known as "the prince of preachers". A real icon in his time.


I. First, then, CHRIST IN CONNECTION WITH THE LAW. The law is that which, as sinners, we have above all things cause to dread; for the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. Towards us the law darts forth devouring flames, for it condemns us, and in solemn terms appoints us a place among the accursed, as it is written, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them."

First, then, our Lord Jesus Christ is the purpose and object of the law. It was given to lead us to him. The law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, or rather our attendant to conduct us to the school of Jesus. The law is the great net in which the fish are enclosed that they may be drawn out of the element of sin. The law is the stormy wind which drives souls into the harbour or refuge. The law is the sheriff's officer to shut men up in prison for their sin, concluding them all under condemnation in order that they may look to the free grace of God alone for deliverance.

The law also shows us our great need—our need of cleansing, cleansing with the water and with the blood. It discovers to us our filthiness, and this naturally leads us to feel that we must be washed from it if we are ever to draw near to God. So the law drives us to accept of Christ as the one only person who can cleanse us, and make us fit to stand within the veil in the presence of the Most High.

And now, secondly, he is the law's fulfillment. It is impossible for any of us to be saved without righteousness. The God of heaven and earth by immutable necessity demands righteousness of all his creatures. Now, Christ has come to give to us the righteousness which the law demands, but which it never bestows

And now, thirdly, he is the end of the law in the sense that he is the termination of it. He has terminated it in two senses. First of all, his people are not under it as a covenant of life. "We are not under the law, but under grace." The old covenant as it stood with father Adam was "This do and thou shalt live": its command he did not keep, and consequently he did not live, nor do we live in him, since in Adam all died. The old covenant was broken, and we became condemned thereby, but now, having suffered death in Christ, we are no more under it, but are dead to it.

aggiez

[This message has been edited by aggiez03 (edited 9/7/2005 11:53a).]

quote:

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summary please?

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This is part of your problem. You have too much surface level, microwave understanding. If you were truly interested in the truth, you would crave deep understanding. Instead, you wish to remain informed of just enough to prop up your puffed up view of yourself, and continue on in your scoffing.

notafraid,
are you capable of having a philosophical conversation without calling names (now i'm a scoffer)? i simply don't think it's reasonable to expepct me to wade through pages of cut-n-paste bible verses. your fondness for vomiting forth scripture is no substitute for cogent argumentation.

The things that the Bible doesn't specifically address as wrong borders on legion.

Your won't find a specific verse about...

1. Herion addiction

2. child pornography

3. computer, identity theft

4. smoking pot

5. faking a handicapp parking sticker

6. cheating on the S.A.T.

7. posting stupid threads

My point is that the Bible doesn't specifically address many things. That doesn't mean they are not wrong or are right. Many times we have to build an inferencial case from scripture. For example, if I choose, I could probably build a strong case against heriod addiction, but I could not quote
I Drugians 12:3 "And thou shalt avoid the big "H."

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 9/7/2005 6:49p).]

Luke 1:43: And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44: For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

Here Elizabeth refers to Mary as a mother, even though she had not given birth to Jesus yet, and the fetus known as John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth's womb...Not sure how that can happen, unless John the Baptist was alive, and human, before he was ever born.

The "Christian" position on abortion is absurd and laughable at best.

Since most "christians" believe that infants and all children for that matter are innocent and blameless of their sins until they reach the age of accountability then killing them just gives them a 100% free ride to heaven removing all possibility that they may choose wrong and go to hell.

Since 1973 there have been about 40 million abortions. according to christians those 40 million souls just fluttered strait off to heaven and were stripped of there free will.
What christian missionary group or activity has saved 40 million souls in the US alone in the last 40 years. On top of that the only people that have abortions are heathens and atheists so therefore had these people actually lived and been raised by there heathen atheist parents then they would have had about a 10% chance of going to heaven. So the end result for christians is the heathen and athiests kis are saved and don't grow up to be heathens and athiests themselves.

I have an idea for you christians. its really a great idea, a full proof way for you to save souls. Just set up abortion camps, get your women pregant and abort. The average women ovulates once a month from the time she is 11 to about 45. So in theory she could get pregnant and abort about 500 babies in her life. Thats five hundred souls strait to heaven. Wait no I have a better Idea, you could take an egg and a bunch of sperm and a pair of tweezers inject a sperm into the egg and walla a soul. then pull the sperm out and that soul flutters off to heaven grab another sperm and repeat. Think about it yall could set up 24/7 soul winning camps. Just think of all the souls you would save.

I for one am glad you christians don't really believe deep down the crapola that you preach.

Heretic,

What a bitter, hateful person you seem to be... Does your mother know you say things like your post says?

Notafraid,


What a crazy, ignorant, and very fearful and afraid person you must be......does your mother know you obsess over a message board 24/7?

I would love to meet you. It's my guess that you are pretty young, correct?

I have already revealed my age on here before but in case you have really forgotten. I will give you what your fishing for.

I am 23, a single, strait, male with a degree in Electrical Engineering (graduated with High Honors). I have been an ex-christian for about a year and yes I am still a bit bitter(most peolple are when they discover the lies they have been fed their whole life).

I have to keep my beliefs bottled up in the real world so sometimes I vent anonimously on the internet. I still attend church for my families sake because I don't want them to believe I am going to hell. I will probably end up marrying a christian girl and pretending to be a christian for the rest of my life, or perhaps I may fall victim to brainwashing once again I dunno.

That should give you plenty of ammo to attack me with baseless predictions and asserstions.

Heretic

Christians are sinners - that shouldn't reflect on Jesus Christ (or the idea of a redeemer), though it very unfortunately does.

I would heartily recommend that all Christians on this board pray for Heretic. The young man has lost his way.

Heretic - You are now in my daily prayers..

Heratic, this time, and at least for now, I am not trying to argue with you. But really man, bitterness is a self destructive emotion/attitude; it will eat you up from the inside out. That's not simply a Christian position, any psychologist will tell you the same thing.

Get help. Deal with the bitterness. I am OK with the fact that you disagree with me; I am a big boy and can deal with that, but I really would like to see you deal with the pain and bitterness and be able to argue with us from a position of less "teeth."

Heratic,

You said that you would probably marry a Christian girl and go on the rest of your life pretending you are a Christian. I will assume from what your post earlier said that you once were a true believer. you would know that if you go on the rest of your life pretending then you would be responsible for failing to your Lord. You would be responsible for leading your family to a pretenous belief. And when you die, you will have to answer for the things you have done. You will have to answer for pretending. Why are you pretending anyway? There is obviously some belief and some hope there if you choose to pretend. If you were a true non-believer, you wouldn't pretend. What caused you to turn? What caused the bitterness?

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I have been an ex-christian for about a year and yes I am still a bit bitter(most peolple are when they discover the lies they have been fed their whole life).

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I see, well can you name 2 or 3 things that you have found that prove Christianity is a lie, or do you believe it is false simply by faith?

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I have to keep my beliefs bottled up in the real world so sometimes I vent anonimously on the internet.

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Why do you have to keep your beliefs bottled up in the real world? As you said you are 23 years old, and this is America, where there is freedom of religion.

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I still attend church for my families sake because I don't want them to believe I am going to hell.

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What they think of you seems important, so important that you commit to deceive them, that does not seem healthy.

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I will probably end up marrying a christian girl and pretending to be a christian for the rest of my life, or perhaps I may fall victim to brainwashing once again I dunno.

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So do you intend to deceive her also? Certainly no Christian woman would want to marry someone so hostile to her beliefs.

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That should give you plenty of ammo to attack me with baseless predictions and asserstions.

Heretic

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Well, it’s hard for me to stand against someone who is having a moment of real honesty, and expressing their heartfelt frustrations. I want the best for you. One thing I have noticed, that you might not have, is that what you claim has ticked you off at Christianity, is something that you actually do yourself. This is often the case, in that what really makes us mad at others, or at something, is often something we see in ourselves. You are mad at what you call “deception”, yet you yourself are committed to continual “deception”.

I think you will find that it is, as Jesus said “Out of the heart” that who a man truly is will be shown. Christianity is a change of heart, not a glossed over practice of deceiving others that you are really a nice guy with a good heart full of love for he Lord and others. While we are free to desire, we are not free to choose what we desire, and so it is that what a man desires will control him. In other words, we are all slaves to certain desires, as seek to fulfill those desires, then everything we think, say, or do will be geared towards achieving the goal of fulfilling those desires.

For example, some people desire pleasure, and so we se their lives filled with commitments, and decisions to fulfill those desires, whether it be lot’s of sex, lot’s of vacations, lot’s of eating, or whatever fulfills the desire for pleasure. They can and do grow into self destructive things very quickly.

Often when achieving those desires are blocked, we will have anxiety, frustration, etc, and that will therefore bear certain actions, outbursts anger, fits of depression, hateful speech, etc…

There is a way out of that trap however… The Lord can and will change the desires of your heart, and cause you to desire His will, and His way, and for that to be the Joy of your heart, and to bear good and healthy fruit as a consequence.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 9/8/2005 8:32a).]

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I will probably end up marrying a christian girl and pretending to be a christian for the rest of my life

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This is an evil thing you have just said. You are going to PRETEND to be a Christian so you can marry one? You do realize that a Christian is forbidden from marrying a non-Christian, correct? It would be one thing if you laid your cards out on the table, and in disobedience, the Christian girl married you anyway. But your plan here is quite evil. I hope you will change your mind.

Macarthur:

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what does it matter. the bible also says a child should be stoned for disobeying his parents or put to death for working on sunday.

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Wrong on both counts. The Torah commanded a child to be put to death for bringing dishonor on his or her parents, not for disobeying. There is a BIG difference.

Secondly, nowhere in scripture is it forbidden to work on Sunday.

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You do realize that a Christian is forbidden from marrying a non-Christian, correct?

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Aggie4Life02- Where in the Bible does it say that? I agree that it would be best that a Christian would marry one of his/her own faith but I'm not aware of any prohibition against it.

Heretic- Please be a grown-up about your loss of faith and at least to your future spouse (whoever she may be) be honest about what your beliefs about Christianity truely are. A marriage based on lies is not likely to last very long.

II Corinthians 6:14

Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowshop had light with darkness? R.S.V.

Pretty simply stated.