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I did not address whether a certain religion was right or wrong, just the fact that every civilization of man has inately known that there is something greater than themselves.

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In my opinion, man created god in his own image to explain the unexplainables and control the general population through threats of eternal damnation. The trick is first to get people to believe that there is such things as a soul, heaven and hell. The rest is easy.

In my opinion, humans like to have an authoritative (higher power) in their lives. Most project this on to their parents, teachers, etc. when they were young and it was essential to do so. When a person grows up, this higher power projection is easily manipulated into dogma.

Superstitions also play a role in religion as is evident in tribal or other primitive religions that have not evolved like the dominant religions we see today.

I think peer pressure and the desire to part of group is also a big draw for religions. In West Texas where I grew up it was/is the dominant social event for rural people.

[This message has been edited by muster ag (edited 6/30/2005 4:45p).]

I disagree, the theory behind evolution indicates that we evolved to be where we are, a more intelligent creature than the rest of the animals.

Name one other animal, that has sex for pleasure rather than procreation, worships something greater than himself, will give its life for someone else (I am not talking about defending its young, random passerby jumps into the water to save a drowning boy), have goals, plan ahead years in advance, and develops complex languages that others of the same species cannot understand.

Do you honestly think that we happened to develop all of these and many more attributes by pure CHANCE? There are like 5 Billion people on the earth, we all share these inate desires. Yet no animal shares even two of them.

Of course, I probably could list about 50 things that people do that no animal does.

Don't you find that a little hard to reconcile?

I have always believed it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian.

aggiez

hey muster ag i totally agree, but do u have any insight on why then people will becom christians in a society that will kill you for it?

chimpanzee?

tool,

I think you make a good point that someone who thinks like you is less likely to kill you. Most people are christians because their parents were christians and that was what they were told to be.

A few convert or are recruited, but each of those has there own excuses.

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In my opinion, humans like to have an authoritative (higher power) in their lives.

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Exactly, that is why evolution is a farce. We have the desire because we were made that way.

Name one animal that has this desire?

Or

Name one civilization that did not have this desire? The perfect village, the atheist Indians of the Mazutlan Region :<?

We had to evolve from somewhere which animal gave us this longing for something greater than ourselves?

aggiez

chimpanzee with goals:

Ok lets see:

1. Eat bananas
2. save up for retirement
3. find a nice gir chimp with a boatload of bananas

Great!

mattmc

exactly, we evolved to be where we are at. evolution and new thinking after examining the fossile record show that human evolution isn't a single lineage but has many diff branches and that there were more than one animal capable to being where we are at, but competition and the environment lead to the extinction of the other species; this takes place in nature all the time.

chimpanzees have sex for pleasure, bonobo chimps engage in homosexual activity, elephants will mourn for their young for up to a week(they stay with the body and their bahvior is diff). about having goals, can't say other animals don't have goals b/c the ulitmate goal is to procreate. ever heard of dolphin language? they aren't just sqeeking around but communicating, but we have no idea what they are saying. heck my cats have meows and things they do under their breath(not purring) to each other and i have no clue what it means.
there are 5 billion now, but GENETIC EVIDENCE shows that the human population got down to around 2000 people in which case alot of things could have been shared.
and i'm sorry, to believe a book w/out ANY SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE takes more faith.

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We have the desire because we were made that way.

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yea, we all have parents...

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Do you honestly think that we happened to develop all of these and many more attributes by pure CHANCE?

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It is not just "we". We are only one species. Other species of plants and animals have evolve some pretty cool stuff. It all depends on environmental conditions though.

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There are like 5 Billion people on the earth, we all share these inate desires.

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Maybe, Maybe not. We are the same species so our brain's ability to process thought should intuitively be similar.

Another slight variation due to environmental conditions is the fact that some amazon tribes have evolved the ability to not sweat. The constant high humidity of the rainforest makes sweating a useless method of dissipating heat so they have lost this ability.

aggiez03 you keep on trying to use the argument that if other animals don't have it, and we do, then god. but we think of these thngs b/c our brains are capable of doing this. there is no argument that we are the most highly evolved intellectual animals.

why is it that w/ all the old fossils of homo and austalipithicines we do not find any modern human bones and don't find them until about 200,000 years ago, which genetics also supports as the time modern humans came around. this is also the time neanderthals and erectus became extinct. coincidence? sure maybe they just haven't been found yet, but i highly doubt they will.

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In my opinion, humans like to have an authoritative (higher power) in their lives.
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Exactly, that is why evolution is a farce. We have the desire because we were made that way.

Name one animal that has this desire?

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Every animal that has parents which it learns survival skills falls into this category. The higher power projection stems from the inherit need for an ultimate authority to teach them how to survive. Whenever these survival skills are learned the "higher power" may no longer be needed, but the process to yearn for one, may still linger.

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Or

Name one civilization that did not have this desire? The perfect village, the atheist Indians of the Mazutlan Region :<?

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Every civilization has had to deal with explaining the unexplainables. Most, if not all, chose religion to fill this need. Higher power projection make this a lot easier.

Explain to me where that pin-head of super-dense matter that initially kicked off the very first Big Bang came from, and then I'll start listening to atheists.

[This message has been edited by SuperDave03 (edited 6/30/2005 6:15p).]

explain to me a being that has always been and will always be but no evidence of

and for your information i'm agnostic

I'm not so concerned with a being as with the origin of matter. Until proved otherwise, who's to stay that a higher power didn't manifest all the matter found in our universe.

And also, as a Agnostic, you recognize that the truth of these theological claims are either unknown or inherently unknowable. But still, the existence of a deity is a viable option when you can't explain where the stuff that makes up everything around you came from. That's where faith takes over.

as an agnostic, i know that you cannot scientifically prove or disprove a god. so i cannot say for sure there is no good. now i don't think there is one, but my beleifs prevent me from saying there isn't one for certain.

Good. I think that's a perfectly legitimate stance to take. However, when you say...

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now i don't think there is one

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...why are you attracted to Agnosticism when you definitely have atheist feelings? No flame... I'm merely curious as to how you formed your philosophy.

b/c since i try to formulate my opinions through the scientific method, i cannot say for certain that there is no god. but in my gut, i don't think there is one. just the same feelng christians get where they jus tknow there is a god

But Christians actively believe in a God. I would think by believing that the existence of a deity is inherently unknowable that you would simply excuse yourself from the discussion and have no opinion on whether a deity exists or not.

read my post, i cannot say a god does not exist scientifically, but in my gut i feel he is made up.

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toolag04: b/c since i try to formulate my opinions through the scientific method, i cannot say for certain that there is no god. but in my gut, i don't think there is one. just the same feelng christians get where they jus tknow there is a god

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No, the feeling that Christians get is from the Holy Spirit. The feeling you get is....well....I have no idea. Maybe the feeling you get is nothing at all. Like cold does not exist, cold is simply a lack of heat. Same comparison for light and darkness. Maybe what you feel is an emptyness inside you, the lack of the Holy Spirit. Just something to consider......

yup you got it. that it's definately, i have a deficiancy. i am lacking the holy spirit. even though i use to be a christian and pray every night and believed what u believe....wait...i feel...feel...god? is that you? you were just w/ me when i found god. wait what u say god, the budhist are right...ok got ya. hey everybody,god just told me be budhist or go to hell.

For toolag04:

Psalm 119:176 - I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.

for hazzard

ze niodes 13:455 give me a break

Regarding the original post:

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2. Never judge anyone

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I seriously doubt Jesus would command someone to do the Devil's work.


"There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't."

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Like cold does not exist, cold is simply a lack of heat.

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I hate that stupid analogy that this comes from and I hate that people think this. "Cold" and "heat" are merely words we use to describe the relative speed that molecules move at. I'm guessing by someone saying they don't "exist" they mean they aren't some tangible thing, but if that's the case NEITHER one "exists."

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read my post, i cannot say a god does not exist scientifically, but in my gut i feel he is made up.

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I read your post and, like I wrote, I thought that since Agnostics can't scientifically prove/disprove the existence of a deity that they instead abstain from the conversation. I thought true agnosticism is not even having a gut feeling on an issue... because in science there are no strictly "gut feelings".

[This message has been edited by SuperDave03 (edited 7/1/2005 3:26a).]

my gut feeling comes from observation of the world. therefore i have come up w/ my hypothesis that there is no god. now since i can't test it i can't say for sure, but that is my hypothesis. and scientists use their gut feeling all the time when formulating a hypothesis, which they acquire through observation. might be right or might be wrong. but you cannot test your whatever feeling you have that their is a god.

As a quick side note to this thread, I love your signature o3. Where did you get that from?

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my gut feeling comes from observation of the world.

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Okay, that's what I was trying to get at. You don't necessarily have to make any prior observations to have a "gut feeling", but that's just semantics.

So, I guess my next question is what observations have you personally made that would allow you to hypothesize as to the absence of a higher power?

Also, where do you think basic mathematical relationships originated? It's certainly not a construct of the human mind... we just uncovered the hidden truths within nature. What set the basic laws and parameters that govern our universe?

[This message has been edited by SuperDave03 (edited 7/1/2005 5:43p).]