He sounds Universalist Unitarian in a way. For him it’s about a relationship with Jesus, for someone else it might be Buddha or Mohamed. All valid human attempts to connect to a higher power.

you people need to get off my man Joels jock. just cause he doesnt condemn others to hell like you bible thumpers would like, doesnt mean he doesnt know what he's talking about.

aside from his regular biblical references, the man has VERY GOOD EVERYDAY life lessons. if nothing else, listen to what he has to say regarding these important things like Pride, family, Ego, etc...

quote:

---

you people need to get off my man Joels jock. just cause he doesnt condemn others to hell like you bible thumpers would like, doesnt mean he doesnt know what he's talking about.

---

Again the spin doctors are working over time here. None of us can condemn any man/person to hell. Even if we wanted to, we just cannot do it. All we can do is either choose to teach what Christ taught or choose to water down his teachings so as not to offend anybody. If you believe that Christ told the truth when he spoke then you will believe that to be saved you must have faith in him. If you believe Christ was a liar, as many of you apparently do, you can just pick and choose his teachings as they best fit your personal feelings at the time.

It still amazes me how many of you get all upset about this. Why do you care what some of us believe about mankind's salvation? Prior to my awakening I could not have cared any less about this subject. As far as I was concerned you could preach that I was going to hell if unless I ate custard while wearing a tutu. I did not believe it so I did not care. Yet you guys come on here attacking people for telling you exactly what Jesus Christ taught. Are you that afraid that he may be correct and you are not right with him?

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure where you got that. You would have to be pretty insecure to come up with that after all that has been said on this thread. So again I ask you, do you believe what Jesus said about salvation or not? If you don't then you should not be concerned about this at all. If you do then you are purposely misleading people about salvation in a need you would have to not offend them.

Once again I will point out that nobody here has done what you are saying. We are not condemning anybody to hell or heaven. We are only repeating what Jesus taught. If you believe in him you are saved by his blood, if you don't then you are not. Why does that bother you so much, especially if you don't believe it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Holy crap what Church do you go to? They should be arrested for brain washing.

---

Baronvonaggie,

Please be more specific I do not understand what part of what I said you considered brainwashing? I was trying to make it as simple as possible to understand. The problem people are having is when you say that to be saved you must have faith in Christ. Without the blood of the lamb we are not saved. If there is some other way please indulge me so that I might be enlightened and have a better understanding of where you are coming from. Please understand I am assuming you are a Christian. If you are not then you may very well have faith or a belief system in another way. But if you are a Christian, I would certainly be interested to know what other way to come to the father you know of.

ok well you can keep living your life centered around thinking only Christians are saved, while some of us other will just live life the best we can by being honest, modest, faithful, and good to others.

quote:

---

ok well you can keep living your life centered around thinking only Christians are saved, while some of us other will just live life the best we can by being honest, modest, faithful, and good to others.

---

Orlando,

Did I say you were not any of those things? The point of my whole argument is that if one calls himself a Christian then one is implying that they believe the basic tennets of that belief system. If you take one of the main points of that system and say it may not really mean what it says it means then you really don't believe it. I have no problem with you thinking Christians are wrong. What baffles me is why you are upset that we believe faith in Christ is a requirement for salvation. I make no claims about what kind of person you are, I have no idea. All I am saying is if you say you are a Christian then you are saying you believe that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. If you don't believe that then you, by definition, are not a Christian. Just like the fact that, I do not believe Mohammad was a prophet of God or that the Koran is from God, pretty much eliminates me from being a Muslim. And thus any Muslim would say I am a heathen and will not go to heaven.

Orlando, I have many friends that are not Christian. I do not throw it in their face that I believe something differently than they do. Nor do they get angry at me for believing something they do not. However, when they ask me what I believe and why I tell them. I have no problem explaining it and telling them why. But that does not mean we don't love each other. Or that they are evil vile icky things hellbent on the destruction of mankind. Well maybe some techies I know, but not the rest of them.


[This message has been edited by Aggie_Fanatic (edited 6/27/2005 12:36a).]

You know I want to be clear that I am not saying Joel Olsteen is a bad horrible man whose purpose in life is to draw people away from God. What I am saying is that if he believes that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ/faith in Christ ect... then he should testify of that. If he does not believe that then he should stop saying he does. You cannot have it both ways. You either believe it or you don't. He was asked a direct question which he floundered with by trying to avoid saying what he believes for himself so as not to offend. All he had to say was that God knows all men's hearts, not Joel Olsteen. But Jesus did say that the only way to the father was through him so if you don't go through Christ you won't be going to the father. Don't argue with me on that Larry, argue with Christ, he said it. I am just the messenger.

We are not called by God to preach our feelings. We are called to preach the truth. I would say that by not preaching the truth you are then not loving your fellow man. If you really loved your fellow man you would be willing to accept criticism from the media for saying what you really believe. And the truth is that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him might have eternal life. That is what I believe.

quote:

---

What I am saying is that if he believes that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ/faith in Christ ect... then he should testify of that. If he does not believe that then he should stop saying he does.

---

huh???

quote:

---

aside from his regular biblical references, the man has VERY GOOD EVERYDAY life lessons. if nothing else, listen to what he has to say regarding these important things like Pride, family, Ego, etc...

---

Being of the Muslim faith, this I can agree with completely. I find myself watching the guy all the time just because he speaks in sensical terms regarding how one should be living their lives in the first place. He does it in ways you dont really think about, but when he talks about it, you understand. I am a fan.

Once again, this thread just reinforces why I am not a Christian.

quote:

---

What God? Not the God I worship.

---

How do you know this if you haven't studied there faith?

You only look at the surface and see the differences that have been created over time. The message and goal is the same.

quote:

---

Once again, this thread just reinforces why I am not a Christian.

---

Red herring

Imagine this conversation in Heaven:

Jesus: Hey, looks like Noginkee Mfumatomo just died in the dark jungles of Africa. Boy, he sure was a great guy. Dedicated his life to helping others. I say we get him up here.

God: I wish we could son, but since no one ever mentioned you to him, he is not a Christian. It really sucks that we are bound by that Bible book written by man.

Jesus: I forgot about that! I guess the Grace of God has limits.

No one gets into Heaven but through Jesus Christ. He can bring whoever he wants to Paradise and no one on this Board or Earth as any business condemning anyone.

LOL

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I am saying is that if he believes that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Christ/faith in Christ ect... then he should testify of that. If he does not believe that then he should stop saying he does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




huh???

---

Tonka,

Let me clarify this better. Joel gave the impression that he believes that Christ may not be the only way to heaven/salvation. If this is the case then there was no reason for Christ to die. Christianity teaches that Christ is the only way to the father, yet if he does not believe this, ie his refusal to say he does, then I really don't know what he believes. Now he may very well believe that Christ is the only way. However, his light stepping around the issue gives me reason to be leary of anything he says.

I agree bmx. Like I said, nobody could condemn anybody to hell even if they wanted to anyway. We just don't have the ability to do so.

quote:

---

Imagine this conversation in Heaven:

Jesus: Hey, looks like Noginkee Mfumatomo just died in the dark jungles of Africa. Boy, he sure was a great guy. Dedicated his life to helping others. I say we get him up here.

God: I wish we could son, but since no one ever mentioned you to him, he is not a Christian. It really sucks that we are bound by that Bible book written by man.

Jesus: I forgot about that! I guess the Grace of God has limits.

---

bmx,

You are not seeing what I am saying. All I am saying is that Christ is the way, the only way. Joel gives the impression that Christ may be the way for him, but that there may be another way for others. I am not going to argue things we just cannot know or understand like your little scenario. Who knows how God works. However, one way or another, you have to go through the blood of the lamb. That is all I am saying. Either you believe this or you don't. Joel never had to say that a jew would be going to hell to say that. All he had to do was quote the bible.

"God: I wish we could son, but since no one ever mentioned you to him, he is not a Christian. It really sucks that we are bound by that Bible book written by man."

Sorry BMX -- that conversation would never take place, no one can claim that they did not know HIM.


Romans 1:19-22 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. F7 God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

The Bible tells us to judge in light of scripture.

The Apostle John wrote, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world " ( 1 John 4:1 ) . Again he wrote, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 7,10-11). This Scripture commands us to judge between those who do, and those who do not bring the true doctrine of Christ.

aggiez

Orlando --

"ok well you can keep living your life centered around thinking only Christians are saved, while some of us other will just live life the best we can by being honest, modest, faithful, and good to others."

So what do you do with the guilt? What happens when you realize that you cannot measure up to God's standard? What happens when you lie, cheat, steal, or look lustfully at a woman? How do you reconcile that?

aggiez

"aside from his regular biblical references, the man has VERY GOOD EVERYDAY life lessons. if nothing else, listen to what he has to say regarding these important things like Pride, family, Ego, etc..."

So does 'The Wiggles' and 'JoJo's Circus'.

That does not qualify them as Christian doctrine. Like someone said earlier, if he wants to say he is a motivational speaker that is fine, but to get on national TV and say Jesus may not be the only way to get to Heaven, well, that is just plain wrong for a Christian minister to say.

If you asked a Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, or Morman, they would all tell you that they are the true faith and the only way to get to Heaven. I can't see why people get all bent out of shape when a Christian minister says it.

aggiez

quote:

---

So what do you do with the guilt? What happens when you realize that you cannot measure up to God's standard? What happens when you lie, cheat, steal, or look lustfully at a woman? How do you reconcile that?

---

Stop doing it and never do it again.

First of all, you will do it again.

Secondly, you have not reconciled. If you do not do it again, that is repentance.

Reconcile(definition):

1. To reestablish a close relationship, as in marriage:

How do you reconcile with God when you have sinned against Him?

aggiez

aggiez:

oh i see, because the Book of Romans says so, Noginkee Mfumatomo was supposed to somehow come to the conclusion "hey, somebody named Jesus was in a country I didn't even know existed 2000 years ago and died for our sins"?

and did he say Jesus might not be the only way to get to heaven?

Essentially yes. The interpretation of that Romans passage is that everyone should have come to the conclusion that the Christian version of God is the creator simply because the sunset is so beautiful.

Doesn't that make you wonder why missionaries kept venturing into the heart of Africa to convert the savages? The savages had their chance!

Oh okay so you want proof that the Bible is divine in nature.

There is plenty of evidence to show that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

There is:

Manuscript evidence
Archeological Evidence
Predictive Prophecy
Statistics

http://www.equip.org/free/DB011.htm

"Manuscript evidence"

I would suggest you look into the evidence for the inerrancy of scripture. It is all backed up by historical data from historians of the day.

In fact, the Bible is proven more correct with time (ie. finding Ninevah, Dead Sea Scrolls), where frauds are always revealed with time.

The biography of Alexander the Great was written hundred of years later after his death, yet historians say the biography is accurate. If you are going to wipe out the New Testament, you have to wipe out all ancient history for which there is less evidence. The New Testament has more manuscripts, more than 5000, and less time development. Also, Sir William Ramsay said that Luke was a historian of the first rank, and one of the greatest (The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953], p. 222). I would also recommend Simon Greenleaf's "Testimony of the Evangelists" and F.F. Bruce's "Is the New Testament Reliable?"

"Predictive Prophecy"

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros

http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

Some of these include where he was born, that he would travel to Egypt as a child, where he would live as a child, How much he would be betrayed for, etc. I could keep going.

It is well documented that the Old Testament predates Christ.

aggiez

How is manuscript evidence proof that it is the word of God?

While I believe the Bible is inspired by God, this statement is just untrue:

quote:

---

There is plenty of evidence to show that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

---

The Manuscript evidence is in support of the other 3. The manuscript evidence shows that the Inspired Word of God has been passed down practically unaltered over 2000 years. It has not been altered with myth or changed to fit new ideas or things changed in it to make Christ's early followers larger than life as in other religions.

All four of those are important, but if it is not accurately passed down, the truth would have been lost.

Bmx--

Please elaborate on:

While I believe the Bible is inspired by God, this statement is just untrue:

quote:There is plenty of evidence to show that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

Are you objecting to the word 'plenty' or the word 'Word'?

aggiez

nm, I thought you were saying the Bible IS the WORD OF GOD.

[This message has been edited by Raj95 (edited 6/27/2005 4:13p).]

I am saying there is no PROOF any of it came from God. That is why its called faith

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Not my words or any of those on this board. Jesus said this. So either believe he did or don't believe he did.

Joel Osteen preaches well, but I don't think he preaches completely. Preaching good living and "Jesus loves you" is great, but if you are not going to condemn the sins of homosexual marriage and abortion, then you are in the company of people who didn't stand up and condemn the Holocaust in WWII & civil rights abuses in the 1960's. Is that really the company you wish to be in?

Thanks for the verse.

To me, it means if you are baptized and don't believe, you are condemned. Still does not address those that have never known Jesus.

Take our friend Noginkee Mfumatomo. What if he, by looking at the sunset, comes to realization Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary, is the Son of God and died for our sins. He does all he can to worship Jesus. But, since no one else he knows is a Christian, he is never baptized. Is he condemned? According to that verse, he is.

Thoughts?