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I cannot accept the doctrine that God purposefully causes any of his creation to not have the capacity to believe. That doctrine swims upstream against the current of the grand plan we see through all of the scriptures.

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Bear Ag, you are not alone! Neither Notafraid or myself accept that doctrine. Scripture tells us that it is all about God's perfect mercy, nothing more, nothing less.

ROMANS 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

A & O, evidently NA isn't with you.

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But they're not "elect". Any amount of instruction, prayer, planting, or watering on your part is extremely futile.
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True… Psalm 127:1Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city,
The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Are we to deduce from this verse that Israel should not have built cities, or set watchmen over them, but rather sat on their hands and pondered the vanity of it all if the Lord didn’t build the house, or guard it?

Or should they instead ignore the verse, and think that their building and watching were the things that were to be emphasized, and trusted in as the ultmate determining factor?

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According to NA, his own children would not be able to choose Christ, unless they had been elected by God. I don't know how you can read that other than God chooses that some should perish.

Bear Ag, Scripture teaches that God will save ALL of His children. Obviously, all does not mean that EVERYONE will be with Him in heaven! Why? It's not because God predestined some to hell, it's because those folks chose what they wanted and that choice did not involve God. Scripture is clear, without His mercy, no one would choose God.

ROMANS 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are saying that God was aware of our choice to believe or not to believe from the beginning and that it was that choice that determined whether or not we were among the elect, I can agree with you.

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For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

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But if you are saying that we have no choice in the matter, that God will give us all we need to get on board with him...and conversely will not give to others what they need to get on board...then I cannot agree.

A&O -- If God chose indivduals from the beginning for heaven -- then the opposite of this statement is true -- whether you like it or not that is the implication of your belief.

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If God chose indivduals from the beginning for heaven -- then the opposite of this statement is true -- whether you like it or not that is the implication of your belief.

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77, your statement above shows that you know nothing about the mercy of God Almighty and the inclinations of mankind. Oh you talk about mercy and you talk about grace, but in the end it's always about you and your obedience. Whether you like it or not that is the implication of your belief!

Oh we do indeed have a choice Bear Ag, no one would ever argue against that! But without God's mercy, we would never choose Him. That's exactly why Scripture tells us that He will glorify EVERYONE that He predestined! That is His sovereign Will and His Will will be done.

[This message has been edited by Alpha and Omega (edited 6/16/2005 3:38p).]

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Oh we do indeed have a choice Bear Ag, no one would ever argue against that!

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Everyone has a choice?? After all this preaching about how God only grants some people the ears and eyes, how does everyone have a choice? How do you know if Bear Ag is "elect"?

You guys deserve a PhD in spin doctoring.

techguy, your argument is not with us, friend, your argument is with God Almighty. Paul made that very clear:

ROMANS 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

So you agree, then, that we don't have a choice in the matter?

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So you agree, then, that we don't have a choice in the matter?

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techguy, God is the only Being that can provide us His mercy! God provides us mercy according to His own good and perfect pleasure. No "human" being is deserving of that mercy, but according to Scripture, God provides it none-the-less. Like I said, your problem is with God Almighty not us.

I agree with that statement A&O. He will give an inheritance to whom he will give an inheritance. He will save whom he will save. He will bless whom he will bless. He will redeem whom he will redeem. Faithful Christians are the ones he will bestow this upon.

That's not the verse you want A&O. You won't find the verse you want because nothing supports such a claim as you are making.

Like I said if God chooses a certain number for heaven -- YOU TELL ME what did he choose the other number for? Where are the other chosen ones headed?

Who can deny this statement:
2 Cor 5:14-15 -- For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all{not just a few chosen ones} , therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all{not just a few chosen ones} , so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

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techguy, God is the only Being that can provide us His mercy! God provides us mercy according to His own good and perfect pleasure. No "human" being is deserving of that mercy, but according to Scripture, God provides it none-the-less.

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I completely agree with this and have never argued otherwise. However, it does nothing to address my earlier question which was "So you agree, then, that we have no choice in the matter?"

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That's not the verse you want A&O. You won't find the verse you want because nothing supports such a claim as you are making.

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Sorry, 77, it's your interpretation that's severely lacking, there is no problem with the verse!

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Like I said if God chooses a certain number for heaven -- YOU TELL ME what did he choose the other number for? Where are the other chosen ones headed?

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Again, 77, you just don't understand the concept of undeserved mercy! Undeserved mercy is just that UNDESERVED. God does not provide that mercy to everyone, Scripture makes that clear. But that is a very far cry from saying that God chose some for damnation. Those that do not choose God are those that chose EXACTLY as they desired, God had no hand in that decision of rejection. His elect chose Him because of His merciful intervention without which we would have never chosen Him. God's mercy knows no bounds and gives hope for those that simply do not have the mental faculties to understand be they to young, to old or to ill. Only God can provide that mercy and only God can redeem and glorify His elect!

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However, it does nothing to address my earlier question which was "So you agree, then, that we have no choice in the matter?"

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Sure it does techguy. As I stated above, we are all free to choose what we desire and according to Scripture, we will never desire our Savior unless God Almighty provide us undeserved mercy to regenerate our heart. That is not my idea or opinion, that fact is written in the Word of God!

OK is God a respecter of persons? If he is then I can agree with you. If not then I have to disagree with you.

Severely lacking -- I understand the verse. He will mercy on whom he has mercy. He will have compassion on whom he has compassion. Yes -- he's told us WHO those are -- CHRISTIANS! That's not hard to understand.

77, God Almighty provides mercy to His elect. You say that is all Christians, fine. Regardless, it's God's mercy that saves, not some "human" ability to say yes! While we are on the subject, you do not believe that God knows the identity of all those Christians?

Oh I know he knows who are Christians. I also know he would accept any and all who would believe. Those who would hear and believe. If one of those you suppose are unelected serves God and obeys him -- he too will be a Christian even if he was a supposed unelect as you claim.

You are right it's God's mercy. However, if we don't believe we won't be saved. God's mercy is not given to the disobedient.

Oh yeah you never nswered this:

OK is God a respecter of persons? If he is then I can agree with you. If not then I have to disagree with you.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 6/16/2005 8:49p).]

NA - you guys can't answer the scriptures that 77 posted above and that I have posted on other threads. Throw the verses you said he omitted in there and it STILL paints the same picture. Take them on their own like you do and the entire picture becomes contradictory of itself.

Are you going to answer my qeustion from earlier or contiue to ignore it?

AO - It is God's mercy that makes salvation available to everyone. It is our love for His truth that makes us want to be obedient and access that salvation.

CenTexHornsFan,

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NA - you guys can't answer the scriptures that 77 posted above and that I have posted on other threads. Throw the verses you said he omitted in there and it STILL paints the same picture. Take them on their own like you do and the entire picture becomes contradictory of itself.

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Perhaps you should let sleeping Notafraids lie... It is not I who am at a loss for answers. I beleive that you will see that it is you, as I will show by posting my own verses, and asking my own question, to which I hope you will not avoid answering directly.

Here are the verses in question, you claimed I could not answer…

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. -- 2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Now, He died for all here does not mean he died for every single person in the world. The verse even says that “those who live”, meaning those elect that He made alive in Christ (Eph 2:4-5)

It is confirmed elsewhere in the scriptures that Christ did not die for all the people in the entire world:

He bore the sin of many…

Isa 53:12Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

For all that the Father has given Him…

John 6:39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

For the church…

Eph 5:25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

For many...

Matthew 20:28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Matthew 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

For His sheep…

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now, I answered 77’s verses for you, now you answer mine, and please answer this bit of logic that John Owen wrote if you can:



The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"




[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/16/2005 9:50p).]

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It is our love for His truth that makes us want to be obedient and access that salvation.

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Without His mercy, you would never know the truth! God will save His ELECT, Scripture makes that very clear. Your salvation is dependent completely on the mercy of God Almighty, it has absolutely nothing to do with your "love for the truth!"

And the verses 77 quoted from 2nd Corinthians do not include the words "not just a few chosen ones." The ones He died for are the same as the "all" who "died" with Him as a result of His death. That is not all of mankind but His elect!

2nd CORINTHIANS 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Union with Christ summarizes our experience of redemption. Believers are elected (Ephesians 1:4,11), justified (Romans 8:1), sanctified (1st Corinthians 1:2) and glorified (2nd Corinthians 3:18) "in Christ."

Wow! You said all that and avoided the question all at the same time! Congrats?!?!?

Oh I didn't mean for that to be the only verse refuting the "L" in "TULIP". Maybe you should just let sleeping 77's lie...

Luke 19:10 -- For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. [Isn't that everyone]

1 John 2:1-2 -- My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. [Isn't that everyone]

Heb 2:9 -- But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.[I surely hope you would say that is everyone]

John 1:29 -- The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.[Part of the world?]

Mark 16:15-16 -- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Oh yeah you never nswered this:

OK is God a respecter of persons? If he is then I can agree with you. If not then I have to disagree with you.....for the third time....

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 6/16/2005 10:11p).]

CenTexHornsFan

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Wow! You said all that and avoided the question all at the same time! Congrats?!?!?

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You said I couldn’t answer his scriptures, but I did. It was referring to his elect, and I showed how it was by showing how it was talking about those that had been made “alive in Christ”, and also giving all of the other verses that opposed the atonement for all… You are good at taunting, but when it comes to your turn to answer question, and scriptures, you simply can’t do it… You redirect, avoid, etc…

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Oh I didn't mean for that to be the only verse refuting the "L" in "TULIP". Maybe you should just let sleeping 77's lie...

Luke 19:10 -- For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. [Isn't that everyone]

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No, his lost sheep…

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1 John 2:1-2 -- My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. [Isn't that everyone]

Heb 2:9 -- But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.[I surely hope you would say that is everyone]

John 1:29 -- The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.[Part of the world?]

Mark 16:15-16 -- Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

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Yes, these verses speak of the world, meaning people from every nation, every tribe, every tongue..

Rev 5:9And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.


Now, like my answer or not, agree with it or not, I would appreciate an answer for my question, and my verses…



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/16/2005 10:22p).]

1 John 2:2 (NKJV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

This is not teaching that Jesus propitiates for everyone's sins but that He is the ONLY propitiation that there is. It is not speaking of universal propitiation, but of exclusiveness. In other words, there is no other propitiation other than Jesus Christ. If they don't look to Christ, there is no one else to propitiate for their sins. Jesus is the only propitiation for all the world. Peter tells us this in:

Acts 4:10-12 (NKJV) "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

If 1 John 2:2 meant that Jesus propitiated for the sins of the whole world, then nobody would go to hell. If God's justice was satisfied for them in the death of Jesus Christ, why would he punish them in hell? Jesus' death was not just for the Nation Israel but for the world, Jews and Gentiles.

How can one study Scripture and ask this question? "I believe the gospel, but what if I'm not one of the elect? If you believe the gospel, you are elect because only the elect can believe.

John 10:25-28 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

It is only Jesus' sheep that hear His voice and respond.

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No, his lost sheep…

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Well I guess Jesus isn't perfect after all. I can't believe he lost some of his sheep. Come on Notafraid -- I know you know better than this. Give something better than that. Was he seeking for Gentile sheep or Jewish sheep? Come on...

Yes the whole world -- people everywhere -- all -- yes you are right on the money with that one. The whole world...

The answer to your question is:

He died for all.
If all the world were faithful then all the world would be saved.
Yes he died for sinners -- if not I would have no hope.

So 77, do you just ignore John 10:25-30?

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This is not teaching that Jesus propitiates for everyone's sins but that He is the ONLY propitiation that there is. It is not speaking of universal propitiation, but of exclusiveness. In other words, there is no other propitiation other than Jesus Christ.

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Are we just going to ignore those last 11 words? Lets just do that...

Yes Christ died for all the world -- every single individual in the world -- if he didn't then I have no hope for salvation.

No -- it speaks nothing of lost sheep.

Who's taunting? It is true. You haven't answered ANY of the verses any of us have put out regarding hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized for the remission of sins and continuing to walk in obedience. I have shown time and time again that using those verses and the verses you put out, and stick to ALONE (ignoring all the others that refer to salvation), that the complete picture of God's grace and mercy is shown and that that grace and mercy is available to all who are obedient.

You take many of the verses you list out of context and I've shown that too. That is when you start with the "well, you guys think you're smarter than everyone else" garbage. You won't answer all the other verses directly. You continue with a couple of verses taken out of context (and I've shown HOW you took them out of context). To refute that you give eronious statements about "oh, it was only directed to .0001% of all man-kind in the history..." and use no scripture. Or, better yet, you say something about me takig something out of context then can't say how it is out of context using any other scripture in the New Testament.

Shall I repost ALL the scripture I've posted on this thread and others? That way, you can answer each and every point. Is that what you'd like? If so I will oblige.

BTW - Are you ever going to answer my question from earlier? Or, will you continue to dodge that question by accusing me of dodging questions?

77,

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Well I guess Jesus isn't perfect after all. I can't believe he lost some of his sheep. Come on Notafraid -- I know you know better than this. Give something better than that. Was he seeking for Gentile sheep or Jewish sheep? Come on...

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The answer is found in John 10

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The answer to your question is:

He died for all.
If all the world were faithful then all the world would be saved.
Yes he died for sinners -- if not I would have no hope.

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But if He died all the sins of all people, why do they have to be faithful? Did He not die for all of their sins?

You must not have read the questions very well. Perhaps you should go back and re-read it...

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Who's taunting? It is true. You haven't answered ANY of the verses any of us have put out regarding hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, being baptized for the remission of sins and continuing to walk in obedience. I have shown time and time again that using those verses and the verses you put out, and stick to ALONE (ignoring all the others that refer to salvation), that the complete picture of God's grace and mercy is shown and that that grace and mercy is available to all who are obedient.

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But I just answered those verses 77 posted, so what you are saying is simply not true… I don’t recall not answering verses…

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You take many of the verses you list out of context and I've shown that too. That is when you start with the "well, you guys think you're smarter than everyone else" garbage. You won't answer all the other verses directly. You continue with a couple of verses taken out of context (and I've shown HOW you took them out of context). To refute that you give eronious statements about "oh, it was only directed to .0001% of all man-kind in the history..." and use no scripture. Or, better yet, you say something about me takig something out of context then can't say how it is out of context using any other scripture in the New Testament.

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I don’t recall this either…

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Shall I repost ALL the scripture I've posted on this thread and others? That way, you can answer each and every point. Is that what you'd like? If so I will oblige.

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Why don’t you take your top 3 verses, and post them, and then when I answer those, you can give me 3 more, and we will see how that goes…

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BTW - Are you ever going to answer my question from earlier? Or, will you continue to dodge that question by accusing me of dodging questions?

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Hmm.. I don’t recall your question from earlier… There is a lot of stuff going on, and perhaps I missed it… Why don’t you re-post it to me…

The answer is found in John 10 -- no it's not. Read the whole chapter again. Nothing there speaks of "lost sheep".

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But if He died all the sins of all people, why do they have to be faithful? Did He not die for all of their sins?

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Because that is a condition GOD MADE. And yes he died for their sins, but when do they recieve the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 will tell you.)?

Oh yeah you never answered this (for the 4th time, but who is counting...):

OK is God a respecter of persons? If he is then I can agree with you. If not then I have to disagree with you.