On that day…

All the dead will be judged according to their deeds.

Romans 2:6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

The books will be opened, the book of life, and God’s perfect standard of righteousness, the Law.


Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Those who were under the law, as well as all men who have it working in their hearts and conscience…

Romans 2:11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

But for some they, are no longer under the curse of the Law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--


On that day, they will be declared “not guilty”, as He became a curse for them.

Judgment is by a mans deeds, but salvation is by grace. A gift from God.


Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

We are Justified (declared righteous before the Father) as a free gift!

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

The gifts of God, and the effectual calling of God are irrevocable!

Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

His righteousness becomes ours! This is why we call him The Lord, our righteousness!

Jeremiah 23:6"In His days Judah will be saved,And Israel will dwell securely;And this is His name by which He will be called,'The LORD our righteousness.'

He perfectly fulfilled the law in our place..

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Praise the Lord our righteousness! Our savior forever! We are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit!

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

He does not simply make salvation possible, he makes it actual! Praise His name!


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/8/2005 11:37a).]

Hallelujah! We are justified by the free grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ.

It is wonderfully facinating! However, we need to move our focus at some point from God's magnificent plan of salvation to the fruits of the spirit and the high impact mature Christian witness of living the gospel as Jesus taught it, rather than preaching the gospel. Thanks to men like Bakker, Swaggert, Falwell, etc. ad infinitum, preaching has little to no impact on the non-believers. Preaching has become in our nation, a tool of the clergy and zealous laypeople to exhort the faithful, but little more.

In other words, lead by example?

I like: attract by example.

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Hallelujah! We are justified by the free grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ.

It is wonderfully facinating! However, we need to move our focus at some point from God's magnificent plan of salvation to the fruits of the spirit and the high impact mature Christian witness of living the gospel as Jesus taught it, rather than preaching the gospel. Thanks to men like Bakker, Swaggert, Falwell, etc. ad infinitum, preaching has little to no impact on the non-believers. Preaching has become in our nation, a tool of the clergy and zealous laypeople to exhort the faithful, but little more.

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Sounds like you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. The gospel is the fuel for the obedience and the works that follow… Secondly it is the Armenian human will centered distortions that are at the center of the problems in the Church, not the preaching of the gospel. So, the distortion of the gospel to where it’s all about me making a good decision that is at the root of the problem. That’s not amazing grace. It’s my own amazing decision making capabilities. So, the problem is not that the gospel is preached too much, and needs to be refocused on more works, because of antinomianism. The problem is with the humanistic distortion of the gospel.




[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/8/2005 4:15p).]

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Armenian human will centered distortions

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What does Armenia have to do with this?

Sorry, "Arminian", my spell checker must have turned it into the name of a country. It's a Latin name describing the Semi-Pelagian teachings of a Protestant.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/8/2005 4:24p).]

Why does it remove God's grace to say that one must of their own free will choose to keep his commandments and come unto Christ? Why did Christ set the terms for forgiveness if he never really intended us to meet them? A repentant sinner does not go around with pride in his heart about his wonderful choice to repent--he is grateful for the grace of the Savior who forgave his sins.

The other question that just begs to be asked is this: If it is ALL about grace, and NOTHING about the choices of the sinner, why does God limit his grace to only a few individuals? I thought you believed His grace was infinite! If His grace operates as you define it, Notafraid, he is being selective about which of His children he really loves and deserve grace from which of His children He does not and do not deserve grace. Not very convincing to me!

I have a question.

Why does this matter? Is it just fun for debate?

When you look at this discussion closely, you will notice that if either side is "right" the end result really remains the same for "us". Either we are chosen of God (elect) or we are not, but if what we profess is the truth (that we are Christians), why does any of this matter? If NA is right, then I am lead to believe I am a member of the Elect. If "we" are right, then we have chosen to follow God. Either way, aren't we all following God?

NavajoJim,

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Why does it remove God's grace to say that one must of their own free will choose to keep his commandments and come unto Christ?

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Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
If you are going to use the tired old line that this was God through Paul just addressing the .0001% people in human history who thought they were justified by the works of the OT law, and how your required works does not qualify under that, then please don’t bother, I think I might be sick if I hear that sophism again…

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Why did Christ set the terms for forgiveness if he never really intended us to meet them?

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Why make laws if we know some people will break them?

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A repentant sinner does not go around with pride in his heart about his wonderful choice to repent--he is grateful for the grace of the Savior who forgave his sins.

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I disagree. IF it was up to you, and you did it, you are simply better than your neighbor… You would have something to boast about… The Word speaks clearly to this (1cor1:27-ff)

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The other question that just begs to be asked is this: If it is ALL about grace, and NOTHING about the choices of the sinner, why does God limit his grace to only a few individuals?

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It’s ultimately up to God’s grace, but that does not mean that part of our salvation is through our repentance and faith, in which we do cooperate. The bible teaches that God is ultimately sovereign over salvation, not that we never freely will anything…

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;He turns it wherever He wishes.

Is the King a robot? Is God not Sovereign?

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I thought you believed His grace was infinite! If His grace operates as you define it, Notafraid, he is being selective about which of His children he really loves and deserve grace from which of His children He does not and do not deserve grace. Not very convincing to me!

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His grace is sufficient to save those He chooses to save. His atonement is limited to His elect. It is not that He saves those who He thinks deserves salvation, but The scriptures teach that He picks foolish, lowly, ignoble, goofy people (again 1Cor 1:27-ff) . The scriptures teach that He does so to His glory.

Tonka

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I have a question.

Why does this matter? Is it just fun for debate?

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The truth matters. Again, didn’t you see how I blamed the humanistic corrupted view for many of the current ills in the Prot Church?

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When you look at this discussion closely, you will notice that if either side is "right" the end result really remains the same for "us". Either we are chosen of God (elect) or we are not, but if what we profess is the truth (that we are Christians), why does any of this matter? If NA is right, then I am lead to believe I am a member of the Elect. If "we" are right, then we have chosen to follow God. Either way, aren't we all following God?

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I must go now, it’s my anniversary, but there are lots of problems that stem from the Arminian view. A tendency towards pride, A man centered focus, Worship services altered to focus on decisions, Church becomes a show, congregation becomes audience, Man becomes the sovereign, tendency towards shallow easy believism, Tendency toward theological ignorance, and shallowness, etc… The list goes on…


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/8/2005 4:54p).]

How is there a Protestant church? I know the meaning you have, Protestant tradition and general common thought and theology, but even then, its far from uniform. Most churches pride themselves on autonomy.

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How is there a Protestant church? I know the meaning you have

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Then why ask the question…

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Protestant tradition and general common thought and theology, but even then, its far from uniform. Most churches pride themselves on autonomy.

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Since you brought it up, the gun barrel points right back to the current RCC with Semi-Pelagianism! Some of you good RCs need to kick some butt and the Vatican needs to be brought back in line with the Ecumenical council of Orange! A good start would be to start listing Orange as an Ecumenical council, and put a stopper in the mouth of the bozos who like to try and minimize it to say how local and minor it was. It is totally binding, and all of the inconsistent drivel needs to be eradicated from the RCC, as well as the Spin doctor Numanite Theologians! Semi_Pelaginaism verses Orange needs to be the spot to draw the battle lines. If I were an RC, I’d be all over it. Still I hope some day a theological RC type would perhaps listen to me...

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I must go now, it’s my anniversary, but there are lots of problems that stem from the Arminian view. A tendency towards pride, A man centered focus, Worship services altered to focus on decisions, Church becomes a show, congregation becomes audience, Man becomes the sovereign, tendency towards shallow easy believism, Tendency toward theological ignorance, and shallowness, etc… The list goes on…

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The truth matters only if it interferes with my walk with Christ. So whether Arminian or Calvinist, as long as I am following Christ, we should have no problem.

Your list of the problems with Arminianism are about what I expect from someone with less knowledge than yourself. They're simply not true. Those statements can just as easily be made for the Calvinist.

I agree that the truth matters. Unfortunately, I think you have dug your feet in the ground so deep that you are unable to fathom that you may not know the entire truth. I know I don't.

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The truth matters only if it interferes with my walk with Christ. So whether Arminian or Calvinist, as long as I am following Christ, we should have no problem.

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The scriptures declare that we are to hold fast to sound doctrine, and that sound doctrine preserves us, etc… We are exhorted to press on to a mature understanding, to the deeper things of God. I believe a shallow understanding of grace, leaves one weak, and susceptible sin, more error, and many more failings than is necessary. Really what’s so Amazing about Grace in the Arminian view? It’s all about me just making a good decision…

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Your list of the problems with Arminianism are about what I expect from someone with less knowledge than yourself. They're simply not true. Those statements can just as easily be made for the Calvinist.

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Ok, well, if you want to believe that then fine. I think you are right about a tendency towards argumentativeness, and pride in Calvinistic circles. It seems that being armed with much knowledge tends to make them want to try it out. The tendency is to hack people to pieces with it… The rest of the things I would argue are wholly Arminian church traits.

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I agree that the truth matters. Unfortunately, I think you have dug your feet in the ground so deep that you are unable to fathom that you may not know the entire truth. I know I don't.

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I think I know way more than I need to know. My problem is not knowledge, it’s with the sin in me!

It is a great mercy to know where my victory and true strength is, in Him! I am sorry if I offended you, I was just rattling off a list, and none of that was personally directed towards you.

Free Will = Random Determinism.

david

Read Heb. 5:9 -- that doesn't sound random.

NotA, you have a mature understanding?

NotA, can you offer some "sound teaching" on understanding Grace? Give me the verses that make us understand grace without your commentary.

Has anybody else noticed that even when people post in agreement with Notafraid, he shoots them down as well? It's like he believe only he has any understanding of god or that only his is the perfect understanding.

His posts are so contradictory that he can't even have the backing on this board of those who want to agree with him.

AgGermany,

Verses? what are they?

Loving everyone by telling them about the Grace of God seems to be something you are so passionate to speak about that, I think I will step back and let you go for it!

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/9/2005 11:40a).]

Notafraid and AginGermany seem to be caught up in the fine details of Christian theological discourse. Nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. However, when that discourse becomes a spiritual edict by which all Protestants or others are castigated, it may have gone beyond the bounds of truly Christian discourse. It seems to me that this is a process that Jesus saw in the Pharisees and railed against, by the way, of being compulsively focused on the intricacies of spiritual "law", while violating, at the same time, the spirit of the "law". I think all of us agree that salvation is through confession of belief in Jesus Christ and is a gift of God's grace.
I know that it is quite natural for new converts to exult in their salvation and perhaps, even to dwell for some time on the truly wonderful spiritual dynamics revealed by that life-changing experience. Ultimately, we need to move foward, and search for the gifts of the Holy Spirit and more importantly, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. These (Fruits) are what Jesus preached as most important companions(proof)to his Gospel of the truth that will set you free. The Fruits of the Holy Spirit are the most powerful evangelistic tool in the world today. Elect? Grace for all? Who really cares? When asked, Jesus told us only one way to recognize his followers: "how they love each other" Whether he elected them or whether they elected him...it doesn't really matter. The proof is in the pudding(fruit).

Bear ag,

I disagree with most of your post. I am not going to address all of it because I am short on time, but it seems to me that your focus on “who cares” has led you to not even be able to clearly articulate the gospel. Salvation is not “through confession of belief in Jesus Christ” as you say.
Your anti-intellectual approach to Christianity has even led you to carelessly handle the gospel of salvation.

This is a primary example of what is wrong with so much of the Church today. People who know little, yet are filled with so much confidence that they know much that they want to instruct others as to how they are not doing it right like they are. We are all in danger of this when Churches tend to specialize in things like entertainment, spiritual subjectivism, getting folks to make a decision for Jesus, or works based Sanctification.


I am not trying to insult you, but I am not so stupid that I don’t realize that you will probably be offended. I am sorry that I could not have said everything in a better way, but I am so very limited myself. Just know that there is no animosity in my words.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/9/2005 12:06p).]

NotA, as I have told you before the grace of God simply is. A wonderful gift.

I do not know of a verse that tells us "how" we can understand it with the exception of the verses that deal with those who have been forgiven much love much. The grace and mercy means more to them.

"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." Luke 7:47

The point is, grace is not a point of explaination, it simply IS.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 6/9/2005 12:43p).]

NotA, I could say you are careless for this statement from the above post.

"Salvation is not “through confession of belief in Jesus Christ” as you say."

Yes it is, because without the confession of Christ, (for those who have sinned) will not be saved without it.

Salvation is through grace.
Salvation is through Christ.
Salvation is through repentance.
Salvation is through faith.
Salvation is through hearing the word of God.
Salvation is through confession.
Salvation is through endurance.

"Blessed are the theologically intelectua...wait
no, it was "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

It was not me who set myself up as the teacher to the unfortunate Roman Catholics or the source of wisdom on grace to the elect, although I must confess that like you, pride is one of my frequent sins of commission.

I suppose my thoughts didn't match the intellectual level you require, but that's allright. I have an education that I'm proud of and am able, most days, to put together a complete sentence.

It is my hope that on a board like this, we can forego the false theology of exclusion and embrace the "whosoever" found in John 3:16...that we can avoid the trap of needing to triumph and exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.

Finally, I refer you to Paul's letter to the Galatians, chapter 5, verses 13b-14.

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...through love, be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

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and verses 22-24...

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But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.

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Bear, doing the will of the Father requires details. Is it not acceptable to you to discuss and debate the will of the Father?

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

We must be careful about details must we not?

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction

If we, as believers and followers, focused our undivided attention on cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in all of our life: worship, family, work, neighbors(near and far)...the details will take care of themselves.

Why make it more difficult than that?

"My yoke is easy and my burden light"

Bear Ag,

But it was you who showed up here as a fault finder to tell me how I didn’t meet the good Christian standards you suggested. I simply pointed out how your own standards led you to fail in expressing even the message of salvation. My main point was, to show you that there was a log in your own eye.

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If we, as believers and followers, focused our undivided attention on cultivating the fruits of the Spirit in all of our life: worship, family, work, neighbors(near and far)...the details will take care of themselves.

Why make it more difficult than that?

"My yoke is easy and my burden light"

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Well, this thread may be your opportunity for Christian humility.

I am interested to hear your view of how one cultivates the fruits of the Spirit.




[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/9/2005 2:22p).]

If I have wounded you, Notafraid, I ask for your forgiveness. As I confessed earlier, I am a sinner. As for my thoughts on salvation, I have already said:

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I think all of us agree that salvation is through confession of belief in Jesus Christ and is a gift of God's grace.
I know that it is quite natural for new converts to exult in their salvation and perhaps, even to dwell for some time on the truly wonderful spiritual dynamics revealed by that life-changing experience. Ultimately, we need to move foward, and search for the gifts of the Holy Spirit and more importantly, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. These (Fruits) are what Jesus preached as most important companions(proof)to his Gospel of the truth that will set you free. The Fruits of the Holy Spirit are the most powerful evangelistic tool in the world today.

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I said there was nothing wrong whatsoever in a discourse concerning the minutest details of salvation and/or grace, but that at some point we need to spend our time in perfecting, as near as we can, our image as Christ-like beings.
May I be so bold as to suggest that we use the last fruit, self-control, to nuture the other fruits and prune away the dead wood and weeds.
We do not become spiritual robots when we "put on Christ". We still have free will and may or may not choose to follow more closely the example of Christ. But, if we choose to follow in a imitating way, let us do so without attempts to divide the flock of the Good Shepherd. That is what Paul was warning the Galatians about and perhaps is where you felt criticised.

As for the log in my eye, I've been a follower for about fifty years now. I live in a log house, friend, and can add on a room quite often with the steady supply I remove from my eye. Guilty as charged.

"Why make it more difficult than that?"

It's not if you truly follow.

What church do you belong to?

United Methodist

na/gh/yyz/se off(?)

I was done a while back going around with you. It looks like others are starting up, which is fine, I hope it's beneficial.

But the "I'm a teacher, if only people would listen to me" ect ect - both directly and in tone - It undercuts your posts, believe it or not.