So what were the teachings of Luther and Calvin?

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PhiAggie
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So apparently we have agreed that the didarche is not in new testament scripture as is Lutheran and Calvinist doctrine.

So what does Luther and Calvin support that isnt in the NT?
Redstone
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Among others:

Many Protestants would say the Catholic sacraments are not in the Bible, and explicitly as a list they are not, although the concepts and direction of the Lord on which they are based very much are.

Luther wanted to keep two, baptism and the Lord's Supper - his position on the Eucharist was closer to Catholicism than anything in mainline Protestantism. Luther's failure to reach doctrinal accord Zwingli on the nature of the Eucharist in 1529 split the Reform movement.

On this most important sacrament, Calvin believed that Christ is present both symbolically and by spiritual power, imparted from heaven to the souls of believers as they partake. This position, the "dynamic presence," occupies a middle ground between Luther and Zwingli.

Both he and Calvin more or less agreed on predestination, although their followers never could, even to this day. The three big branches of Protestantism, the third rooted with Wesley (who wanted to reform and remain within Anglicanism) I think have much discord rooted here, as the concept of predestination is deeply entwined with grace, faith (alone?), and thus the nature of our salvation.
Redstone
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The RC perspective of Luther and Calvin.

L: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

C: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03195b.htm

Hashed out a bit here, if you ignore the Trent stuff.
http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=437511&page=1&forum_id=15

Edit url fix.

[This message has been edited by Redstone (edited 5/8/2005 5:08p).]
PhiAggie
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Thanks Red...Ill take a look.

quote:
the Catholic sacraments are not in the Bible, and explicitly as a list they are not, although the concepts and direction of the Lord on which they are based very much are.




Please explain....
Redstone
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The sacraments, as a formal practice, can be traced to the earliest Christians. The Last Supper, where the Lord spoke of His blood and body, is our example of the Eucharist. Baptism follows the example of the Lord. Marriage follows the teachings of the Lord and the example of Christ and his bridegroom, the people of God (most especially the total devotion of the religious life). Confirmation involves the dwelling of the Holy Spirit, as it was with the first Christians. Confession/Penance, the same. Holy Orders follow the example of the Apostles, and the authority, as Christ told Peter in Matthew 16. The Anointing of the Sick likewise is rooted in the power given to the Apostles by Christ. There is, however, no list that says "these are the sacraments." It is instead following the example of Christ and His first followers.

These are means, received and given in faith, that Christ has established to grant His grace and draw us closer to him - it is by grace we are saved through faith. Not the only means, because God is always faithful to his people regardless of circumstance, but it is very significant these were the actions of Christ, the teachings of Christ.

Here, from John Paul: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SEVEN.HTM
Notafraid
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This site seems interesting…

http://www.eldrbarry.net/heidel/heidel.htm

On it you can find some information without lies, misrepresentations, and misunderstandings by Roman Catholic writers.




[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/8/2005 10:57p).]
Redstone
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Oh, of course, lots of liars.

Yawn.
Notafraid
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Believe what you will.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/8/2005 11:22p).]
berserked
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A Catholic source on Luther?
That wouldn't be the most objective source.
Try this:

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/outside.stm

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html

http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1165

[This message has been edited by berserked (edited 5/8/2005 11:37p).]
Guadaloop474
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quote:
So apparently we have agreed that the didarche is not in new testament scripture as is Lutheran and Calvinist doctrine.


Great Question PhiAggie!! How can people throw out the teaching of the 12 Apostles who were there with Jesus in the Didache , and then turn right around and adhere to the teachings of men who weren't even born for another 15+ centuries?



Texasag73
Aggie4Life02
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quote:
How can people throw out the teaching of the 12 Apostles who were there with Jesus in the Didache


Where do you get the idea that the 12 Apostles wrote the didache?
jkag89
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The very work itself is subtitled The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Gentiles or some varation of that depending on the translation.



Guadaloop474
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INTRODUCTORY NOTICE TO THE TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES
The interest so generally excited in the learned world by the ("Bryennios" discovery of a very primitive document, rendered it indispensable that this republication should be enriched by it, in connection with the Apostolic Constitutions (so called), which had been reserved for the concluding volume of the series. The critics were greatly divided as to the genuineness of the Bryennios Ms.; and, in order to gain time, I had relegated the Constitutions, with this document as its sequel or its preface, to a place with the Apocrypha. Dissatisfied with my own impressions and conjectures, I soon decided that the task of editing the Teaching, as the Bryennios document is entitled, must be entrusted to an "expert," and that, if possible, it should be taken in hand with the Constitutions. In order to give sufficient time, I entrusted the task, a year ago, to the well-qualified head and hands of Professor Riddle of Hartford, who most kindly accepted my proposals, and who now enables me to present his completed work to the public with the volume to which it properly belongs. It will be hailed by literary men generally as a timely reviewal of the whole subject, nor should I be surprised to find Dr. Riddle's estimate of the Teaching accepted as the most important contribution yet made to the literature of inquiry touching its worth and character. Appearing, as it does in this place, in close relations with the Constitutions, and with the editorial comparisons so felicitously introduced by the learned annotator, the student will find himself in a position to weigh and to decide for himself all the questions that have been raised in previous examinations of the case. Without risking any judgment of my own upon the decisions which have been reached by Dr. Riddle in the exercise of his great critical skill, I cannot withhold an expression of gratitude for the impartiality and scientific conscientiousness with which he has handled the matter. Uninfluenced by prepossessions, he presents the case with judicial calmness and with due consideration of what others have suggested. I am gratified to find that impressions of my own are strengthened by his conclusions. In an early notice of the Bryennios discovery, contributed to a leading publication, I stated my surmise that the Teaching, and its parallels in the Constitutions and other primitive writings, would prove to be based upon some original document, common to all. Even Lactantius, in his Institutes, shapes his instructions to Constantine by the Duae Viae, which seem to have been formulated in the earliest ages for the training of catechumens. The elementary nature and the "childishness" of the work are thus accounted for, and I am sure that the "mystagogic" teaching of Cyril receives light from this view of the matter. This work was "food for lambs:" it was not meant to meet the wants of those "of full age." It may prove, as Dr. Riddle hints, that the Teaching as we have it, in the Bryennios document, is tainted by the views of some nascent sect or heresy, or by the incompetency of some obscure local church as yet unvisited by learned teachers and evangelists. It seems to me not improbably influenced by views of the charismata, which ripened into Montanism, and which are illustrated by the warnings and admonitions of Hermas.1

Introductory Notice by Professor M. B. Riddle, D.D.

--------

Section 1.-The Discovery of the Codex, and Its Contents.

In 1873 Philotheos Bryennios, then Head Master of the higher Greek school at Constantinople, but now Metropolitan of Nicomedia, discovered a remarkable collection of manuscripts in the library of the Jerusalem Monastery of the Most Holy Sepulchre at Constantinople. This collection is bound in one volume, and written by the same hand. It is signed "Leon, notary and sinner," and bears the Greek date of 6564 = A.D. 1056. There is no reason to doubt the age of the manuscripts. The documents have been examined by Professor Albert L. Long of Robert College, Constantinople;2 and some of the pages, reproduced by photography, were published by the Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, April, 1885. The jealousy of its guardians does not imply any lack of confidence in the age and value of the Codex. The contents of the 120 folios (240 pp.) are as follows:-

I. Synopsis of the Old and New Testaments, by St. Chrysostom (fol. 1-32).

II. The Epistle of Barnabas (fol. 33-51b).

III. The two Epistles of Clement to the Corinthians (fol. 51b-76a).

IV. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (fol. 76a-80).

V. The Epistle of Mary of Cassoboli to Ignatius (fol. 81-82a).

VI. Twelve Epistles of Ignatius (fol. 82a-120a).

The last part of fol. 120a contains the signature and date; then follows an account of the genealogy of Joseph, continued on the other page of the leaf.

Schaff (p. 6) gives a facsimile of fol. 120a.

Of these, I. supplies some unpublished portions, and furnishes matter for textual criticism. II. gives the second Greek copy of Barnabas, also furnishing new readings. III. is very valuable; the text of both Epistles is now complete. Two-fifths of that of the second was previously unknown.3 The value for purposes of textual criticism is also great. IV. is the Teaching, the value of which is discussed below. V. and VI. both belong to the Ignatian literature, and furnish new readings, which have already appeared in the editions of Funk (Opera Patr. Apost., ii., Tübingen, 1881) and Lightfoot (Epistles of St. Ignatius, London and Cambridge, 1885).

Section 2.-Publication of the Discovered Works: the Effect.

In 1875 Bryennios, who had been chosen Metropolitan of Serrae during his absence at the Old Catholic conference in Bonn, published at Constantinople the two Epistles of Clement, with prolegomena and notes; giving the text found in the Jerusalem Codex, as he termed it. All patristic scholars welcomed his work, which bore every mark of care and learning; showing the results of his contact, as a student, with German methods. Bishop Lightfoot and many others at once made use of this new material. The remaining contents of the Codex were named in the volume of Bryennios, and some interest awakened by the mention of the Teaching. The learned Metropolitan furnished new readings from other parts of the Codex to German scholars. At the close of 1883 he published in Constantinople the text of the Teaching, with prolegomena and notes. A copy of the volume was received in Germany in January, 1884; was translated into German, and published Feb. 3, 1884; translated from German into English, and published in America, Feb. 28, 1884; Archdeacon Farrar published (Contemporary Review) a version from the Greek in May, 1884. Before the close of the year the literature on the subject, exclusive of newspaper articles, covered fifty titles (given by Schaff) in Western Europe and America.4

Section 3.-Contents of Teaching, and Relation to Other Works.

In the Babel of conflicting opinions, it is best to notice first the obvious internal phenomena. The first part of the Teaching (now distinguished as chaps. i.-vi.) sets forth the duty of the Christian; in chaps. vii.-x., xiv., we find a directory for worship; chaps. xi.-xiii., xv., give advice respecting church officers, extraordinary and local, and the reception of Christians; the closing chapter (xvi.) enjoins watchfulness in view of the coming of Christ, which is then described.

The amount of matter is not so great as that of the Sermon on the Mount.

The peculiarities of language are marked, but can only be indicated here in footnotes. They point to a period of transition from New-Testament usage to that of ecclesiastical Greek. The citations from the Scriptures resemble those of the Apostolic Fathers. The Gospel of Matthew is most frequently used, especially chaps. v.-vii. and xxiv.; but some of the passages fairly imply a knowledge of the Gospel of Luke. There are some remarkable correspondences with expressions and thoughts found in the Gospel of John, while there is good reason for inferring the writer's acquaintance with all the groups of Pauline Epistles. His allusions to the other New-Testament books are less marked. There is nothing to prove that he did not know all of our canonical books. If an early date is accepted, the tone of the whole opposes the tendency-theory of the Tübingen school.

The most striking internal phenomena are, however, the correspondences of this document with early Christian writings, from A.D. 125 to the fourth century. With the so-called Epistle to Barnabas, chaps. xviii.-xx., the resemblances are so marked as to demand a critical theory which can account for them. A few passages in the Shepherd of Hermas show some resemblance; but only two sentences, in Commandment Second, are verbally the same. There is a still greater agreement with the so-called Apostolical Church Order, of Egyptian origin, probably as old as the third century. It is now known in the Coptic (Memphitic), and also in Arabic and Greek.5 The first thirteen canons correspond quite closely, both in order and words, with chaps. i.-iv. of the Teaching.

Most noteworthy, however, is the parallel with the Apostolic Constitutions, vii. 1-32, which contain more than half the Teaching, in precisely the same order, with very close verbal resemblances. The parts omitted are in most cases such as had lost their pertinence in the fourth century, while they seem appropriate to a much earlier period. The details will be found in the footnotes to the Teaching in this volume. These phenomena have called forth voluminous discussions, and are the most important facts in determining the authenticity and age of the Teaching.

Section 4.-Authenticity.

By this is meant, in this case, the substantial identity of the recently discovered document with the work known and referred to by early Christian writers under the same (or a similar) title. Of apostolic origin no one should presume to speak, since the text of the document makes no such claim, and internal evidence is obviously against such a suggestion. On the other hand, there is no reason for doubting the age of the Codex, or the accuracy of the edition published by Bryennios.

Eusebius (d. 340) of Caesarea, in the famous passage of his history (iii. 25) which treats of the canonical books of the New Testament, names among the "spurious" works (noxqoi) "the so-called Teachings of the Apostles" (tw=n a0posto/lwn ai9 lego/menai didaxai/), The plural form does not forbid a reference to the work under discussion, since Athanasius (d. 373) has a notice clearly pointing to the same writing, in which he uses the singular (Festal Epistle, 39). Rufinus (d. 410) speaks of a brief work called The Two Ways, or The Judgment of Peter; and this fact, in view of the contents of the Teaching, furnishes one of the most important data for the critical discussion. The last notice of the Teaching was made by Nicephorus (d. 828) more than two hundred years before Leon made this copy. Clement of Alexandria (d. circa 216) and Irenaeus (mart. 202) use expressions that may indicate an acquaintance with this writing. The more extended correspondences with Barnabas and later disciplinary works are noticed above (sec. 3). The existence of an old Latin translation of the Teaching, of the tenth century, a fragment of which has been preserved, furnishes general evidence to the authenticity of the Greek copy, but by its variations suggests the presence of many textual corruptions. Its closer correspondence with Barnabas has led to the theory that the translator used both documents. Others suppose that its form points to a document which was the common source of the Greek form of the Teaching and of Barnabas.

The various theories based on the above facts cannot even be stated. The following positions seem, on the whole, most tenable:-

1. The Greek Codex presents substantially the writing referred to by Eusebius and Athanasius.

2. Owing to an absence of other copies, we cannot determine the purity of the text; but there is every probability of many minor corruptions.

3. This probability calls for care that we do not infer too much from verbal resemblances.

4. The resemblances to book vii., Apostolic Constitutions, are, however, of such a character as establish, not only a literary connection between the two works, but also the priority of the Teaching.

5. In the case of Barnabas, the resemblances can be accounted for (a) by accepting the priority of the Teaching, or (b) by assuming a common (earlier and unknown) source, or (c) by accepting the priority of Barnabas, and assuming such corruptions in the Greek copy of the Teaching as will account for the supposed marks of its priority. Despite the general adoption of (a), there remains a strong probability that (b) is the correct solution of the problem.

6. The Duae Viae, spoken of by Rufinus, may be the common source. We have no positive evidence, but the "two ways" form so prominent a topic in most of these documents which indicate literary relationship, as to encourage this theory. If there was a common source, it probably contained only matter similar to chaps. i.-v., which was variously used by the subsequent compilers. Here a number of theories have been suggested.6 None of them, however, necessarily call for a very late date of the Teaching, or compel us to deny that Eusebius and Athanasius referred to substantially the same work as that now existing in the Codex at Constantinople. Many resemblances have been noticed in other works. Probably in the course of a few years all the data will have been collected, and a well-defined result based upon them. But, even in this period of discussion, there is remarkable agreement among critics in regard to the main question of authenticity.

Section 5.-Time and Place of Composition.

Granting the general authenticity of the Greek work, the time of composition must be at least as early as the first half of the second century. If the Teaching is older than Barnabas, then it cannot be later than A.D. 120. If both are from a common source, the interval of time was probably not very great.7 The document itself bears many marks of an early date:-

(1) Its simplicity, almost amounting to childishness, not only discountenances all idea of forgery, but points to the sub-apostolic age, during which Christianity manifested this characteristic. The fact is an important one in the discussion of the canon of the New Testament.

(2) The undeveloped Christian thought, as well as the indications of undeveloped heresy,8 confirms this position. Christianity was at first a life, for which the Apostles furnished a basis of revealed thought. But the Christians of the sub-apostolic age had not consciously assimilated the thought to any large extent, while their ethical striving was stimulated by the gross sins surrounding them.9

(3) The Church polity indicated in the Teaching is less developed than that of the genuine Ignatian Epistles, and shows the existence of extraordinary travelling teachers ( "Apostles" and "Prophets," chap. xi.). This points to a date not later than the first half of the second century, probably as early as the first quarter.10

Most of these phenomena would, however, consist with a date as late as that of the Ignatian Epistles on the theory that the Teaching was written for a community of Christians in some obscure locality. But this theory must admit that there existed for a long time great variety of Church polity and worship.11 Of this there is, indeed, considerable evidence. The undeveloped form of the doctrinal elements of the work constitutes the most serious objection to the theory of a late origin. On the other hand, it seems on many accounts improbable that the work, in its present form, was written earlier than the beginning of the second century: (1) Such a document would not be penned during the lifetime of any of the Apostles. (2) There is no allusion in chap. xvi. to the destruction of Jerusalem. If the author was a Jewish Christian, as seems most probable, such silence implies an interval of at least one generation. (3) The position of the document in the Codex is after the Clementine Epistles, and before the Ignatian. This probably marks the chronological position. (4) The extreme simplicity scarcely consists with the view that the author was nearly contemporary with the Apostles.

Bryennios and Harnack assign, as the date, between 120 and 160; Hilgenfeld, 160 and 190; English and American scholars vary between A.D. 80 and 120. Until the priority to Barnabas is more positively established, the two may be regarded as of the same age, about 120, although a date slightly later is not impossible. All attempts to discover the author are, with our present lack of data, necessarily futile. Even the region in and for which it was composed cannot be determined. Jewish-Christian tendencies are not sufficiently indicated to warrant the assumption of a polemical aim.12 The document has been assigned to Alexandria, to Antioch, to Jerusalem; indeed, many other places have been named. In favour of the Syrian origin is the literary connection with the Apostolic Constitutions, while the correspondences with the Epistle to Barnabas suggest Egypt as the locality. If the Teaching and Barnabas have a common basis, e.g., the Duae Viae, the last may be assigned to Egypt, and the Teaching, in its present form, to Syria. The Palestinian origin is urged by those who lay stress upon the absence of Pauline doctrine in the Teaching. [If meant for catechumens only, this fact is sufficiently accounted for.]

The question is still an open one.

As regards the doctrine, polity, usages, and ethics expressed and implied in the Teaching, the reader can judge for himself. The writer is of the opinion that the work represents, on many of these points, only a very small fraction of the Christians during the second century, and that, while it casts some light upon usages of that period, it cannot be regarded as an authoritative witness concerning the universal faith and practice of believers at the date usually assigned to it. The few notices of it, and its early disappearance, confirm this position. The theory of a composite origin also accords with this estimate of the document as a whole.

The version of the Teaching here given is that of Professor Isaac H. Hall and Mr. John T. Napier, which first appeared in the Sunday-School Times (Philadelphia), April 12, 1884. It is now republished by permission of the editor of that periodical and of the joint authors. A few slight changes have been made, some of them in accordance with suggestions from Professor Hall, others to indicate correspondences with book vii of Apostolic Constitutions.

The division of verses agrees with that of Harnack as given by Schaff. The headings to the chapters have been inserted by the editor. The Scripture references have been selected and verified. The notes have been kept within narrow limits. They serve to indicate the relation of the matter to that in other early writings, mainly the Apostolic Constitutions, and to give various readings and renderings. Occasionally explanations and comments have been inserted. In dealing with this, as with most other books, the best method of study is historico-exegetical. To read the book intelligently is better than to read about it. The editor has sought to furnish some help in this method.

Aggie4Life02 - That's why...

Texasag73
Ft Worth Ag
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quote:
How can people throw out the teaching of the 12 Apostles who were there with Jesus in the Didache , and then turn right around and adhere to the teachings of men who weren't even born for another 15+ centuries?


Or the "flowering" of doctrine, also known as Tradition, that is described by the Roman Catholic Church? If you knock us with this argument, watch out for that pendulem to hit you also.


[This message has been edited by Ft Worth Ag (edited 5/11/2005 9:13a).]
Ft Worth Ag
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Wesley never left the Anglican Church. Methodism as a denomination was an effect of an upcoming war - which could be argued as the most important influence of the time to break with the Church of England (Who does your loyalty lie with?). There were other issues also between the two groups. I may be wrong, but I had also thought Wesley consecreted the bishops of the Methodist Church only for the American soil and not for British soil.


[This message has been edited by Ft Worth Ag (edited 5/11/2005 10:17a).]

[This message has been edited by Ft Worth Ag (edited 5/11/2005 10:22a).]
Redstone
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Right - that's a key point about the early Protestants - hard and fast divisions. We see the same today.

The issues hundreds of years ago was not homosexuality and the nature of God (to take the Anglicans and the formally Christian Unitarians) or the book of Revelation (7th day Ad) or specific teaching based on the same Bible (various nonden) but the larger tendency to just leave and reform, which has played out many times.
Guadaloop474
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quote:
Or the "flowering" of doctrine, also known as Tradition


What's wrong with Tradition? Paul says in 1 Corinthians, chapter 11:2: I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

As the only Christian Church there at the time, it is the Catholic Church's duty, per Paul, to maintain those traditions, in spite of what Luther and Calvin say...

Texasag73
titan
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I see the argument as a bit simpler regarding the "throw out books" point. Since the united Catholic Church of West and East more or less accepted the Canon as it was up to 1500, I find the retroactive deletion extremely dubious.

Perhaps a "demotion" in standing could be argued, but the deletion entirely? Very dubious on its face.

Regarding Tradition. It and "flowering of doctrine" are not the same. Tradition is the actual handed down teachings and practices of the Catholic view. Flowering of doctrine is more descriptive of some of the `interpolated' or `reasoned out of' or `elaborated out of precedent' doctrinal statements and rulings that have been made from time to time.

Tradition is what maintained the Apostolic teachings till the NT was "published' in the first place. Many churches did not have all the books --- but their teachings remained roughly consistent, for it was the training/instruction handed down that kept it stable. That's why the `publishing' of the Bible at the end of the 4th Century was even able to prayerfully discern what books did and did not belong. The already extant teachings/practices that laid it out.

How much "doctrine" can develop is a contested point, and blending it too much with the concept of the transmitted teachings is confusing.
Notafraid
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quote:

I see the argument as a bit simpler regarding the "throw out books" point. Since the united Catholic Church of West and East more or less accepted the Canon as it was up to 1500, I find the retroactive deletion extremely dubious.


How do you reconcile the positions of so many of the Greek authors, and say it was more-or-less accepted by them? It seems like less to me...

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon4.html
titan
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Notafraid,

I meant the outright deletion. No councils were called to change the canon after the 600s.

As I said, I find the deletions dubious. But its just informed opinion.
Guadaloop474
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Please explain why the protestants accepted the canon of the NT decided by the Catholic Church, but didn't accept the canon of the OT...

Texasag73
Notafraid
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quote:

No councils were called to change the canon after the 600s.


You say that like there was more than one… Even that one was never considered an ecumenical council. Rome likes to hang a lot on that extremely regional “Third Council of Carthage” that agrees with her at Trent.

What I find dubious is hanging so much on that one council, to the exclusion of so many of the Greek author’s positions, or documents such as “The list of Sixty Books”, or the many disputes up until Trent. Basically I find your language too strong, and your position to strong, which is unusual for you.
Notafraid
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Texasag73

quote:

Please explain why the protestants accepted the canon of the NT decided by the Catholic Church, but didn't accept the canon of the OT...


The fact that RC’s like to think that Luther pulled the thought out of his butt, and everyone else just bought into it is not conducive to you knowing the truth about what happened. Rome’s systematic oppression of people, ideas, books (including the Bible), and even history is not conducive to your knowing that it was simply something that was one of the debates of the age “internally”. When I say “internally”, I mean inside of the Church before the split, as every major doctrine of the Reformers was. The reformation was an inside job to that extent, only because of the oppression of it, and persecution, it became a split, or schism. It all happened relatively quickly, because the Bible became so central, and it’s critical analysis gave those under the power of it, a first century like faith, full of power even to martyrdom. The shock of this true enlightenment was too great to contain, and the splits between old and new were dramatic. Rome was stuck in Arestolian authority, Philosophical arguments, and corruption, where as this new emphasis on the authority of scripture that the Reformers had was simply too powerful, and too weighty to stop.
To answer your question more briefly, it was not as concrete as Titan’s somewhat misleading language would make you believe.

ramblin_ag02
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The claim that the Carthagian Council created a definitive canon for all of Christendom should not go uncontested.

I am no expert, but neither the Protestant nor Orthodox creeds consider the Apocrypha/deuterocanonical books part of the canon or basis of doctrine. Only the RCC considers those books to be on relatively equal footing to the Mosaic books, the Kings, Prophets, Gospels, and Epistles.
Guadaloop474
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Notafraid -Do you agree with Luther, then, that anyone and everyone can interpret scripture on his/her own?

Texasag73
Notafraid
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quote:

Notafraid -Do you agree with Luther, then, that anyone and everyone can interpret scripture on his/her own?


Well, yes, I do, and many church fathers agree as well. But that is a different question than the authority of private spirits. The scripture with the Holy Spirit both inform, and judge us.

Notafraid
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ramblin_ag02

quote:

The claim that the Carthagian Council created a definitive canon for all of Christendom should not go uncontested.


Apocrypha means hidden things, Deuterocanonical means “second canon”. Not part of the first… Why would they not be simply considered in the first canon if there were not something different about them? This was Jerome’s point when He put together the translation that served the church for 1600 years. He never considered them on the same level, and he is the one scholar who did more ancient research than anyone else, and had access to writings that have been lost. His opinion should stand much greater than it does, but he has been relegated to just another voice… One against, but even that is drowned out by Trent.
Redstone
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na,

I would be very interested in some quotes from early Christians about the need/ability to interpert scripture as an individual.

I can find quite a few that wouldn't agree, including St. Augustine, whom you have quoted in several threads in the last year or so.
ramblin_ag02
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NA,

I am agreeing with you in my post, but I guess I need some writing classes. I seem to have problems with clarity of statement. The only reason I said apocrypha/deuterocanonical is that Catholics refer to other books as apocrypha, and I wanted to be clear with my reference to the Apocryphal books in the Catholic Bible.

Jerome's writing is one of the reasons I feel confident that Carthage was not a once-and-for-always definitive statement on the canon.
Redstone
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The bogyman of Trent again!

First, it was a clarification of: original sin, Justification (faith alone?), the sacraments of penance and unction, Christian marriage, Purgatory, indulgences.

Second, the internalization of reform, led by St. Loyola - a giant of history, and one of the most impressive men to ever live, IMO.

We can argue any or all of these. My point is that on the "biggest" one - justification - Protestants don't agree. Not even close. Disagree or not with the RC position, which is what it is, this is key to understand - the same Bible, very smart and good-intentioned people, the same Holy Spirit - different results, then church splitting.

Trent
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm
Justification
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
titan
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Notafraid,

quote:
You say that like there was more than one… Even that one was never considered an ecumenical council. Rome likes to hang a lot on that extremely regional “Third Council of Carthage” that agrees with her at Trent.


There is no "Rome likes" at that time. It was generally united church. Its that entity that was `hanging alot' on it. There were actually a group of councils in the close of the 4th century and the early part of the 5th discussing it. The Third Council, if you mean the one in 419, just represented a culmination. Also, it is a disastrous mistake to speak of it as "extremely regional" -- Emperors Honorious and Arcadius were in close communication, in in fact, the East was fully apprised of the deliberations about the canon. In fact, very involved in it. Regional (and Orange is another example) did NOT mean "doesn't apply" outside. It depended on how its teachings were received by the Church as a whole.

(Insert edit: I see a terminology mix-up -- By "Third" you mean the one in 397, but the one in May 419 is the third at Carthage on the subject. But no need to change what I said, for it applies to both 397 and 419).

Prior to the 600's there was not much lack of information exchange -- the Empire and Church both were more or less one in commerce, if not in belief. Even the onset of the Dark Ages in more remote Gaul and in Britain did not much obstruct ecclesiastical dialogue.

quote:
What I find dubious is hanging so much on that one council,


Its not "on that one council". It was a culmination of dialogue throughout those years.

quote:
to the exclusion of so many of the Greek author’s positions, or documents such as “The list of Sixty Books”, or the many disputes up until Trent. Basically I find your language too strong, and your position to strong, which is unusual for you.


Perhaps, but its the rough uniformity that was attained that speaks to it. The Byzantine canon is attestably the same as late as the 9th Century. Ironically, you have more ongoing "late debate" on the Western side. For example, Acquinas's doubts of their level. The key I repeat is deletion being questionable. This was not genuinely favored; what continued to sputter on in debate was whether they were at the same rank as canon, or just very edifying.

quote:
This was Jerome’s point when He put together the translation that served the church for 1600 years. He never considered them on the same level, and he is the one scholar who did more ancient research than anyone else, and had access to writings that have been lost. His opinion should stand much greater than it does, but he has been relegated to just another voice… One against, but even that is drowned out by Trent.


Step past the Trent fixation. Read of Jerome's period -- Jeromes attitude had alot to do with his location in Palestine and strong ties to the Jews as well. He particularly was partial to the Hebrew text, (perhaps justifiably) and inclined to lower their rank. But his views on the deuteros were disupted while he was alive , by several fathers, among them Augustine, and not just Rome's see, but Carthage, and Alexandria.

Trent is fixing canon in response to Luther's changes, following what had come down to it by then. Its much like how the Orthodox reflexively reject the change in the filioque -- as just changing what had been settled more or less. It only had to do so because the question was being re-opened.

In sum, the acceptance was wider based then any rejection, and especially of any outright removals. Yes, Jerome's criticism carried alot of weight, but it was thrashed out back and forth even then, and didn't represent a final word, as Jerome had not used the Septuagint for his translation, but went straight from the Hebrew.

IMO, what it does all say is that I certainly wouldn't base a major doctrine on a passage found only in a deutero book. Though Daniel and Maccabees occupy important ground in the eschatological crowd.

Certainly a stronger case for accepting the deliberations down to that time as being inspired can be made than saying Luther's take was? Personally, I prefer the statement in the immediate prior paragraph as most consistent with the record of how should view.

[This message has been edited by titan (edited 5/12/2005 11:32p).]
Notafraid
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Redstone,

I posted the Church father stuff on another thread for you...
Notafraid
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ramblin_ag02,

I am agreeing with you. I was just trying to post some backup stuff for you, but did a poor job of communicating… And you thought it was you! It was me!
Redstone
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Alright, although I would have preferred to have that discussion here...
ramblin_ag02
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NA,

Thanks!
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