Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This, I think, is among the most Sacrament heavy verses in the Bible - a simple explanation for a profoundly deep experience.

God gave us the Sacraments so that we may receive His grace. This is done in faith.

The whole faith-works discussion is what splits Protestant churches, including one pastored by my uncle. Add something like the concept of predestination, which certainly has some logical roots in the Bible, and you can see how Christians would fight amongst themselves over the meanings of the same set of Bible verses.

Saved by faith alone....The sentiment is not wrong, but the wording is misleading at best. God saves us by His grace, and He requires our cooperation. (Perhaps the reason you don't find an Apostle having written those words?)

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This, I think, is among the most Sacrament heavy verses in the Bible - a simple explanation for a profoundly deep experience.

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Where do you see any sacraments in this verse?

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God gave us the Sacraments so that we may receive His grace. This is done in faith.

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for the sake of argument that may or may not be true, but you don't get that from this verse...

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The whole faith-works discussion is what splits Protestant churches, including one pastored by my uncle. Add something like the concept of predestination, which certainly has some logical roots in the Bible, and you can see how Christians would fight amongst themselves over the meanings of the same set of Bible verses.

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Red Herring

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Saved by faith alone....The sentiment is not wrong, but the wording is misleading at best. God saves us by His grace, and He requires our cooperation. (Perhaps the reason you don't find an Apostle having written those words?)

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Where do you see the concept of cooperation in this verse? It seems to say just the opposite.

-Denny Crane-

The Sacraments - marriage, the Eucharist, and so on - are not just signs, not just a representation. They are real, spiritual events that draw us closer to Christ. The verse speaks of God's grace, which are in the Sacraments, if received in faith and a humble, contrite heart. God embraced the physical world, including its squalor, and its fitting he uses physical means to transfer His love and grace to us.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

The debates of Protestants over these issues of faith, grace, and works are not a red herring if good, honest, smart people part ways while using the same Bible verses. They do, but if you want to focus elsewhere in this discussion thats fine.

Isn't it self-evident that God requires our cooperation to give us His grace? What would happen if you closed your heart to Him, if you turned away for lust or selfishness? I don't know, you don't either, but it would certainly not be the same as praying, loving others by the love of Christ, having Christian fellowship, or reading and learning by the Bible.

Redstone, one cannot look at verse 8 without verse 9. It is a continuation of that thought from Paul.

EPHESIANS 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


The GRACE of God Almighty results in a saving faith in our heart. It is not about sacraments, it is about God's promise to save His Elect. That is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! As you pointed out in Ephesians 2:8, this grace is a "gift" from God. Without His intervention, we would never believe, we would never have faith. We are saved by God's grace, through faith (alone) and even that is not of ourselves. To say otherwise is contrary to the Scripture you posted and thus contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official teaching of the Catholic Church that developed over 2000 years. It is what I believe. Pope Benedict XVI put it together while he was a cardinal.

Aggie4Life02 and Notafraid - Please send me a link to what your church teaches. There are so many protestant churches with so many different interpretations of the same bible that I don't know exactly what you 2 believe in. Just being against the Catholic Church is not enough I'm afraid.

texasag73,

My denomination has the Westminster Confessing of Faith, as our doctrinal standard: You can find that here http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_contents.htm , on the PCA website.

You can also find the Westminster Larger, and Shorter Catechism here at http://reformed.org by looking in the “Historic Church documents” section. I don’t think the site is up right now, but if you go there when it is, I believe that I would agree with just about all of the Historic Documents found in that section.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

The LBCF(1689) is very similar to the Westminster Confession that Notafraid holds to. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure it was a model for the LBCF. The only major difference that I am aware of is WCF holds to paedobaptism, LBCF holds to credobaptism.

[This message has been edited by Aggie4Life02 (edited 5/6/2005 5:59p).]

Thanks - Now we all have our cards on the table....Get ready for some questions, once I've figured out my new Nikon D70 camera, I should get back to the board sometime on Sunday...

Is it possible for an individual who possesses the ability to choose, to avoid participating in his/her faith? If so, then it seems that he/she is an automoton who possesses not free will, but the will pressed upon him a la Calvin's concept of double predestination. So, when the sinner becomes "saved" once and for all by reciting the "sinner's" prayer, he is either a puppet or participating. There is no middle ground.

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So, when the sinner becomes "saved" once and for all by reciting the "sinner's" prayer, he is either a puppet or participating. There is no middle ground.

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XUSCR, nothing, I repeat, NOTHING could be further from the truth! You're right, there is no middle ground but your comment above is utter and complete nonsense! I simply don't have time to add more, perhaps there are other posters that do have the time to respond. Simply amazing!