OPIE03 - Here is a rebuttal to your anti-Catholic taking points. If you take a look, you will see that Catholics really do follow what's in the Bible.
The doctrine of Purgatory, and the associated practices of praying for the dead
It’s in 2 Maccabbees, which Luther threw out. It’s also hinted at in Matthew 5:26 - truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (released from where)? Jesus also went to speak to the spirits in prison after his death (1 Peter 3:19)
The practice of praying to dead people other than Jesus
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Luke 20:38). Revelations 5:8 says that these supposed dead people present our prayers to the Lord – “ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;”
The belief that Jesus is either incapable of or unwilling to listen to our prayers unless they are brought to His attention by some dead person, such as a "saint" or Mary
No Catholic believes this. We pray straight to Jesus too. It’s just that in James 5:16, it says that The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects…And we know that while we are busy with other things, our intercessor saints in heaven continue to pray for us, thus multiplying our prayers.
The belief that entry into Heaven is conditional on having confessed sins to an earthly priest
We only believe what the Bible teaches in John 21-23 - Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
The belief that an earthly priest can forgive your sins in exchange for some works on your part (or, more on topic, in exchange for money -- the selling of such "indulgences" was what started the "protest" that made us "protestants" )
The selling of indulgences was wrong. No argument there.
The belief that the RCC is the only entity that can interpret Scripture (sounds to me like denial of the Holy Spirit, which is the only unpardonable sin)
Wrong – The Church is the pillar of truth, as outlined in the Bible – 1 Timothy 3:15 says "if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
The belief that RCC tradition is equal to Scripture in determining truth
You have to use tradition to interpret scripture – Otherwise you wind up with thousands of different interpretations of Sacred Scripture, when there is only 1 truth. That’s why you have thousands of “bible churches” all claiming to represent the truth, but they all believe differently. They can't all be right.
The "adoration" of Mary, which, no matter what they say, is tantamount to worship (why can't they see anyone but her in a cheese sandwich? )
No Catholic adores Mary. Giving her honor is no different than giving your mother on earth honor. Besides, Luke 1:46 says that her “soul magnifies the Lord”. Her soul is still around today, and it is still magnifying the Lord. Get close to Mary, and you will get close to Jesus. Just look what John Paul II accomplished with his life by getting close to Mary.
The use of idols, relics, etc., which are believed to have miraculous powers when touched, prayed to, etc. (including the "host" itself, which is "adored" and worshipped )
The Communion Host is the true Body of Christ. At the Last Supper, Jesus held up some bread and said “This IS My Body”. John 6:51-58 says - 51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52: The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54: he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58: This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Concerning relics having miraculous powers, that's also scriptural-- Acts 19:11: And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12: so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them
The practice of closed communion, denying the Lord's table to sinners
– Paul says in 1rst Corinthians 11:27-30 --Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28: Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29: For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30: That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
The belief that the Pope can be infallible, and is Christ's substitute on earth (see the definition of "Vicar" )
The pope is the successor to Peter. Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The imagery of Jesus still on the cross, dying perpetually, versus the protestant empty cross, signifying His resurrection
1rst Corinthians 11:26 says 26: For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
The use of canned, repetitive prayer (specifically condemned by Jesus)
In Revelations 4:8, it reads - And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 4/4/2005 6:06p).]
[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 4/4/2005 6:08p).]
The doctrine of Purgatory, and the associated practices of praying for the dead
It’s in 2 Maccabbees, which Luther threw out. It’s also hinted at in Matthew 5:26 - truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (released from where)? Jesus also went to speak to the spirits in prison after his death (1 Peter 3:19)
The practice of praying to dead people other than Jesus
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Luke 20:38). Revelations 5:8 says that these supposed dead people present our prayers to the Lord – “ And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;”
The belief that Jesus is either incapable of or unwilling to listen to our prayers unless they are brought to His attention by some dead person, such as a "saint" or Mary
No Catholic believes this. We pray straight to Jesus too. It’s just that in James 5:16, it says that The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects…And we know that while we are busy with other things, our intercessor saints in heaven continue to pray for us, thus multiplying our prayers.
The belief that entry into Heaven is conditional on having confessed sins to an earthly priest
We only believe what the Bible teaches in John 21-23 - Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22: And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
The belief that an earthly priest can forgive your sins in exchange for some works on your part (or, more on topic, in exchange for money -- the selling of such "indulgences" was what started the "protest" that made us "protestants" )
The selling of indulgences was wrong. No argument there.
The belief that the RCC is the only entity that can interpret Scripture (sounds to me like denial of the Holy Spirit, which is the only unpardonable sin)
Wrong – The Church is the pillar of truth, as outlined in the Bible – 1 Timothy 3:15 says "if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
The belief that RCC tradition is equal to Scripture in determining truth
You have to use tradition to interpret scripture – Otherwise you wind up with thousands of different interpretations of Sacred Scripture, when there is only 1 truth. That’s why you have thousands of “bible churches” all claiming to represent the truth, but they all believe differently. They can't all be right.
The "adoration" of Mary, which, no matter what they say, is tantamount to worship (why can't they see anyone but her in a cheese sandwich? )
No Catholic adores Mary. Giving her honor is no different than giving your mother on earth honor. Besides, Luke 1:46 says that her “soul magnifies the Lord”. Her soul is still around today, and it is still magnifying the Lord. Get close to Mary, and you will get close to Jesus. Just look what John Paul II accomplished with his life by getting close to Mary.
The use of idols, relics, etc., which are believed to have miraculous powers when touched, prayed to, etc. (including the "host" itself, which is "adored" and worshipped )
The Communion Host is the true Body of Christ. At the Last Supper, Jesus held up some bread and said “This IS My Body”. John 6:51-58 says - 51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52: The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54: he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58: This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
Concerning relics having miraculous powers, that's also scriptural-- Acts 19:11: And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12: so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them
The practice of closed communion, denying the Lord's table to sinners
– Paul says in 1rst Corinthians 11:27-30 --Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28: Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29: For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30: That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
The belief that the Pope can be infallible, and is Christ's substitute on earth (see the definition of "Vicar" )
The pope is the successor to Peter. Jesus told Peter in Matthew 16:18-19-"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The imagery of Jesus still on the cross, dying perpetually, versus the protestant empty cross, signifying His resurrection
1rst Corinthians 11:26 says 26: For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
The use of canned, repetitive prayer (specifically condemned by Jesus)
In Revelations 4:8, it reads - And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 4/4/2005 6:06p).]
[This message has been edited by texasag73 (edited 4/4/2005 6:08p).]
