for one of my professors. He was truly a great man, and the parts people spoke about his life were great. However, they also had some guy up there for about 15 min. with lots of Mormon indoctrination attempts.

I am a Christian, and I know some about the Mormon religion- modern day saints in America, Joseph (sp?) Smith as a modern day prophet, and what I learned from the Mormon South Park episode . I don't think they treat Christ as deity, but they kept referring to him as "savior" and our "atonement." They kept quoting famous Biblical scripture like John 3:16, and I've heard that they often try to sound just like Christianity and tend to omit the parts that are distinctly Mormon when others are around.

All in all, the whole thing was very annoying, because I felt he was trying to lure Christians into thinking Mormonism and Christianity are pretty much the same.

So, what do they REALLY believe regarding Christ, and do they all try to cloak their faith in Christianity? What do the believe about the Bible?

Two questions:

1) Whose funeral did you attend (I'm a recent grad, and a Mormon, and I probably know the person).

2) Where did you get the idea that we Mormons don't "treat Christ as Deity"? That's a pretty common misconception, of course, so I don't fault you for thinking that, but nothing could be further from the truth.

A little explanation about your questions: Whoever spoke probably wasn't trying to "lure" anybody away, but yes, from our perspective Christianity and Mormonism is pretty much one and the same (but that doesn't take anything away from our shared beliefs with other Christians).

But I must say, your post is filled with plenty of doubts and insinuations. I have been a Mormon my entire life, and I assure you we don't waste time "cloaking" our religion or disguising it as one thing or another. It is what it is. People just decide on their own whether or to accept or reject it.

So that's my 2 cents!

His name was Daniel Hanson, and he was a chemical engineering professor/advisor since like 1967. I loved him as a prof!

See, I've heard Mormons say they don't believe Christ is Deity. There seem to be lots of different views on the subject. Anyways, I really wasn't trying to offend- the purpose of the post was to gain information. I feel like I know a lot about other religions, but just bits and pieces about Mormonism.

Anybody else care to back up/lend credence to what he said? Not that I doubt you- I've just heard several conflicting accounts of Mormonism.

And you will continue to hear conflicting things about Mormonsim, but you'd do well to ask those who actually know what they're talking about, as opposed to something some preacher with an agenda has foisted upon them. What he said about the beliefs was exactly true. Anything else you hear that conflicts it will not be true. I hope that helps.

No worries, I don't think there was anything to be offended at. Who knows, maybe some other Mormons will come and corroborate what I said above. I really don't have an explanation for Mormons you've met saying they don't believe "Christ is Deity". Perhaps they were trying to explain our understanding of the Godhead, in which God the Father, Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost are three completely different beings, but all "one in purpose" (i.e. working to the same end, namely the salvation of mankind) and worthy of the title "Diety" or "God".

Just a guess, since I wasn't there for the conversation. Anyways, like any good Mormon I can get long winded, but I am pretty well versed and can fill in any questions you might have (with some good bull thrown in of course!)

_______________________
Reggie! Reggie! Reggie!

Perhaps it goes something like he was once a man who became a god, and you can become a god too?…

Possibly, but if so I question whether or not they were actually Mormons. It is pretty rare for a practicing Mormon to frame God in that way (even though it is a real doctine of the Church). That kind of reference usually comes from others who take an accurate teaching but put a negative spin on it. The usual way to think or talk about Christ is to focus on His role as Savior.

A Mormon elder once told my friend, "you shouldn't base your beliefs so much on evidence."

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focus on His role as Savior

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Mormons take words that are familiar to Christians and skew their definitions. My definition of savior is the One who saved me from my sins once and for all. The Mormon definition is that accepting Jesus ENABLES one to be saved, but that alone does not warrant "heaven" (another redefined word).

[This message has been edited by Homsar (edited 2/3/2005 12:44a).]

Maybe some of the confusion about 'Christ as Deity' comes from the mormon idea that all of us (Christ included) were spirit children of God in the pre-mortal world. Jesus just happened to be the first spirit child born to God the Father in the pre-existence.

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Possibly, but if so I question whether or not they were actually Mormons. It is pretty rare for a practicing Mormon to frame God in that way (even though it is a real doctine of the Church). That kind of reference usually comes from others who take an accurate teaching but put a negative spin on it. The usual way to think or talk about Christ is to focus on His role as Savior.

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Don’t you think it’s kind of important that people know what Mormonism considers the nature of Christ to be? I can understand if you just consider it a true doctrine of the Church, but not something that is “emphasized”, but don’t you think it’s important just exactly which Jesus that people are being called to? Either He is the Jesus that orthodox Christianity describes, or he is this Jesus that was once a man, and became a god. If indeed it is faith in Jesus that Justifies one before the father, then whichever Jesus seems to be important. The same with heaven… Does one strive towards ultimately having one’s own planet and being a god, or what is the ultimate hope of glory that a believer should have?

I’m not saying that an individual Mormon has an agenda of “cloaking” the Mormon religion but that it’s a part of the general mentality not to offer up detailed explanations of the nature of things like Christ, the Father, heaven, heavenly rewards, etc… Just part of salvation is focused on. So it’s the system that is focused on to the exclusion of the rest that probably makes people feel like it’s cloaked.

RAB91

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Maybe some of the confusion about 'Christ as Deity' comes from the mormon idea that all of us (Christ included) were spirit children of God in the pre-mortal world. Jesus just happened to be the first spirit child born to God the Father in the pre-existence

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Is there any biblical basis for this teaching, or is it BOM stuff?

As we begin to debate the Book of Mormon, the deity of Christ, the attempts by the Mormons to be accepted in mainstream Christianity, the doctrines of Joseph Smith, etc., we do a good thing. However, we stray from the crux of the matter. Bizarre doctrine, or even heretical doctrine, is not what separates people from Christ. If that were the case, I would have serious problems calling Roman Catholics or 7th Day Adventists Christians, although I know many of them are. Similarly, I know Roman Catholics would say the same thing about Baptists and Presbyterians.

Rather, I will relate a brief story that crystallizes the difference between Mormonism and Christianity. LET ME CAUTION YOU - IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THIS, THEN YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. Anyway, a few years ago some Mormon missionaries came to my house, and they began to share their message. As we began to discuss their faith, my wife said "We believe that obedience to God is a RESULT of our salvation, and not the CAUSE of it." As long as I live, I will never forget the look of surprise on their faces. I believe it is the book of Nephi that states, "For grace we have been saved, after all that we can do." From the faces of their travelling elders, to the words of their holy book, they do not understand justification.

I do not care whether you are a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, or even Adventist; Arminian, Calvinist, hyper-Calvinist, or what. If you do not agree with what my wife said, you are not a Christian.

...so did they say how many planets the prof earned?

Simple question: Do Mormons believe in the trinity as Baptists do?

My experience with Mormons is mostly positive. They are usaully nice people to deal with, but they do cloke their beliefs in Christian vocabulary, and their use of words, people, and doctrines is different.

Try these question...
1. Do you think that Jesus is God, with a capital "G" and equal with the untimate God. He always was God, is God, and always will be God. And do you believe that he is eternal, with no beginning and no end?

2. Do you believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers?

3. Do you believe that Mormon males are destined to become gods? Can Mormon women become gods?

4. Do you believe that the Book of Mormon is equal in inspiration to the Bible? Where there is contradiction, do you believe the The Bible or the Book of Mormon?

5. Do you believe in salvation by grace or salvation by works?

6. Can nonMormons go to heaven? Obtain godhood?

7. Can you list the archelogical proofs for the presence of Jewish tribes migrating to America?

8. What do you believe about the ministrty of a prophet, and the gift of prophesy?

Well, I won't take the time to answer all the questions and repudiate all the nonsense. I do want to explain my previous post; Mormons have a very clear understanding of who Christ is. And Christ is a lot of things! Primarily, he is our Savior (I'll save the "You don't believe in this or that doctrine, so of course you must not be Christian" debate for another day), but many other things as well.

Protestants often are told that if someone believes that God requires obedience to His commandments (as Mormons and many others do) this means they are not Christian. I don't accept that of course.

I believe God requires obedience to his commandments.

I can understand why you don't want to deal with the questions, especially the ones about who Jesus is.

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I can understand why you don't want to deal with the questions, especially the ones about who Jesus is

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You must also then have a correct understanding of why someone wouldn't want to beat their head against a brick wall repeatedly.

Great 94Chem, we have that in common. Here is the misconception (misinformation!) that is most commonly believed: Mormons somehow think we "work" our way to heaven. Not true at all, but no matter how many times I deny it, people accuse me of disguising my faith. Anyway, our view is that an individual is saved by accepting Christ's atonement for our sins, the same as most protestants. The sticking point is that we hold that in order to accept Christ you MUST accept and follow His commandments (baptism by the proper authority, for one) because that is His plan. Simple belief is not enough. But as correctly pointed out earlier, belief inspires obedience. When we move from belief to obedience, then we are on the right path.

And before you guys say it, yes of course nobody is perfect! That's what baptism and repentance are for. But there are some simple commandments we can be perfect in (again, baptism, or even simpler things like not murdering!). My belief is that God holds us responsible for doing our best with good intentions. THAT is the meaning of the above quoted passage from the Book of Mormon.

Sorry if that post was a little long! Any comments or questions are welcome.

I don't understand the obedience stuff.
The Bible says "For by Grace are you saved through Faith, not of ourselves, it is a gift from God, not of works." I have never seen a passage dealing with Salvation that stressed obedience as a condition of Salvation. Sounds like a "work" to me. I do think learning and living the Word of God is the way to mature as a Christian after Salvation. I assume it is that you are referring to.

The only infomation I have had about Mormon's is from my Grandparents and relatives in Tucson. They have said that non-Mormon aren't allowed in. I have never heard of a Christian denomination that excluded anyone who wanted to come listen or visit. I am sure someone can elaborate on that.

Also, what does Jews migrating to American have to do with the Salvation work of Christ. Blood relationships no longer matter.

Liam, it's OK if you want to beat your head against the wall, just don't overdo it.

Mech,

Preposterous. Of course non-mormons are "allowed in" to our meetings! We actively proselyte!

About the Book of Mormon, it is a different subject altogether (and a great one to discuss later!). It's important to remember that Mormons don't just "accept" the Bible, we embrace it. People in other faiths may have differences in opinion and interpretation, but that shouldn't complel them to try to undermine my faith with Bible quotations. If someone tries hard enough and pulls enough quotations out of context, he can make ridiculous notions seem scriptural (Ever seen the t.u. is evil quote?)



[This message has been edited by dkk8614 (edited 2/3/2005 1:11p).]

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If we try hard enough and pull enough quotations out of context, we can make ridiculous notions seem scriptural (Ever seen the t.u. is evil quote?)

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You mean t.u. isn't pure evil!?

This is the way it typically happens, people will overwhelm others with a huge pile of true, partially true, and untrue doctrinal statements that they believe about their doctrinal system, and the people on the other end (unless they are ready to give 2 page responses for the next 3 days) , just kind of shut down… So, if you disagree with someone I suggest you hit them up a little bit at a time and find out if what you THINK they believe is true or not. Chances are, they might not even know the stuff their own church teaches, but you will never find out of you bash them over the head with a list of 25 items you pulled off of some other website.

Agreed, most esteemed notafraid.

I agree as well..although we all know that there are those here that will always take the chance to bash mormons....that's why I left this board for a while...and no, I'm not mormon...I'm the hated Catholic


non-mormons are allowed in...I dated was even engaged to a mormon at one time...I attended meetings...

I am not going to get into the same old arguments though....

Okay, I will have to ask more questions next time I go over that way. Didn't mean to bash. I guess it read that way when I looked again.

In defense of any of my "bashers", I must say that two people can raise the same question with two VERY different intentions. You have to have pretty thick skin to grow up LDS (Mormon), so I am used to much worse then would ever occur on this forum. The thing you always need to ask yourself is, "Am I writing/saying this to explain a difference/explore someone else's beliefs or am I reacting to a foreign concept with a sort of religious knee-jerk?". Most people who believe in God, regardless of faith, have more in common than they sometimes realize. Sharp disagreements will and should happen (and are to be expected, especially with Mormonism, since we are perceived as a "threat" as we actively proselytize), but behind the clash of ideas are two perfectly normal people who also happen to both be children of God.

Besides, you will probably have a Mormon boss someday, so you have to learn to be nice j/k

How bout you pick one or two of the first five questions that I asked. Then give a substantive answer instead of telling us that you won't respond because you can't really explain yourself.

I can't agree, qualify, or argue what you won't answer. Afterall, the other sources of Mormon doctrine may be incorrect. If so, instruct me. Don't tell me why you can't respond.

If you want know about Mormon beliefs and practices, go to dogpile.com and type in mormon beliefs. Some pretty strange stuff.

First of all, Stranger you need to relax a little. It is easy for you to throw down a million questions and expect me to answer every one. As for the dogpile.com idea, I really can't think of anything more ridiculous. An internet search is a VERY poor way of learning about religion. Try mormon.com instead for official information.

Okay, I'll answer the first question:

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1. Do you think that Jesus is God, with a capital "G" and equal with the untimate God. He always was God, is God, and always will be God. And do you believe that he is eternal, with no beginning and no end?

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Yes of course! Not sure what "untimate God" means, you'll have to explain that. Equal with God the Father? Absolutely. Jesus' personal attributes, power, and glory are all commensurate with the father. Not sure what "capital G" is supposed to mean in a technical sense, but my guess is you are questioning our regard of Jesus. Trust me, anything you've heard suggesting we don't hold Jesus is the absolute highest esteem just as God the Father is hogwash.

Just so you know, I am NOT committing to answering every foolish question someone decides to throw up on the board. I LOVE to discuss religion in a positive way, but I find it rude to be assaulted with the shotgun question approach. Only sincere questions deserve sincere answers!


[This message has been edited by dkk8614 (edited 2/4/2005 12:03a).]

I've got a question I've never gotten a good answer to when it comes to Mormonism and Christianity:

How do Moromons reconcile the Book of Mormon with what Paul wrote in Galatians 1:6-9 and the preaching/teaching of different gospel?

To me it's always been a contradiction and simply stated heretical.

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...I dated was even engaged to a mormon at one time...I attended meetings...

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So was it called off when the family found out you weren't Mormon? I've known many mormons and they've all told me that non-mormons aren't allowed to attend the wedding ceremony (I'm not sure if that is just at the temple, or what). Hard to get married when you can't attend your own wedding...

no, I called it off when the slimy SOB cheated on me. His family were actually very supportive of us. Mine a little less so. We had decided on an outdoor ceremony with "bleesings" from members of clergy....in fact, I am still friendly with his parents. I run into them almost everytime I am back home. They took my side....

OceanState, it's not a problem to reconcile that scripture. Interpreting that verse to mean "no more scriptures after this verse henceforth and forever" would throw out the remainder of the Bible. Remember there's a very similar verse in Deuteronomy (4:2) that if you interpreted the same way would throw out the entire New Testament. Think of it this way: what would constitute a "new gospel"? Paul can't be talking about the Bible as a complied book, because that wasn't done until much later by the early catholic church. Read on through verse 12. Paul says that he was taught the gospel by the revelation of Jesus Christ (in Paul's case, directly! Sound familiar?). A "new gospel" then is a gospel that contradicts the words of Christ, does not come from Christ, or is made solely to "please men" (v10). The Book of Mormon stands up to all three requirements (And a lot more!).

The funny thing is, we wonder the same thing about Protestants in reverse, along the lines of "why in the world do they think that God would suddenly stop talking to men on earth, stop revealing scripture?" The truth as we see it is that God has never given up on men, and is willing and able to speak to his prophets still.

Now that's probably a whopper for some of you!