Just curios Zobel, if you would consider yourself a theonomist? Was discussing with a friend a few weeks ago and was a very interesting conversation.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I'm not against the death penalty, or carrying it out publicly, but those laws were for the state of Israel. It wasn't a blanket law for all countries everywhere.

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I think this sentence has a lot of modern encumbrances on it (state, laws, etc) but even if we accept this premise the sake of discussion that doesn't address the problem.

People are saying this is immoral. That means that God told Israel to sin in the Torah.

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It's not immoral. Doesn't mean U.S. Christians have to support every law in the Torah just because God gave it to Israel.

I had to look that one up, so probably not?

I think morality is derived from the revelation of God in the "sundry times and in divers manners" and "in the things that have been made" and most especially in the revelation of Jesus Christ, where God spoke to us Himself.

Christ Jesus gave the Torah, and it is what St Paul refers to when he says that scripture is God breathed, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Chris directs people to the Torah when talking about what righteousness is, and He both explains and affirms it. Which makes sense, because He gave it to Israel in part to set an example for all other nations in righteousness (Deut 4:6-8). The Torah was given to Israel for the benefit of all nations. Christianity is the authentic expression of faithfulness to the Torah for gentiles (i.e., people who are not sons of Israel) who come to believe in the God of Israel.

More Biblical Context and questions

Genesis 9:6
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

Public participation in the execution:
Leviticus 20:1-3 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel:
'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name.

Lev 24:13 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 14 "Bring the one who has cursed outside the camp, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head; then let all the congregation stone him. 15 You shall speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If anyone curses his God, then he will bear his sin. 16 Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.


The Heart of God
Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' Ez . 33:11


Public Execution example as it relates to Salvation:
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Vengeance
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Role of Government
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.


Questions:

• The Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked...does a public execution imply that all that watch are delighting in it?
• Is there value in a public execution?
• Do we make death look too pretty these days? people are carried away in plastic bags, preserved to remove the smells, made up up with makeup and dressed in nice clothes.
• Have our social practices removed it's impact on us so that people do not take it seriously enough?
• Vengeance: Is this an instruction to government officials or to individuals within the church (believers)?
• Punishment: Is this the governments role, biblically? Does that invalidate the Vengeance verse?
• Thief on the cross: Did the death penalty and public execution prevent Jesus from saving this man?

Another question I think is as important regarding government- is if the law of man aligns with the natural law of God. There are numerous examples where disobeying man's law is morally right given that it conflicts with God's law. Think of the early Christians being put to death in Rome for not bowing down to false idols.