There has been some debate on this sub about whether oral tradition is authoritative. It must be authoritative and there are more interpretations, including oral interpretations of God's law than there is sand in the sea. God's own law teaches God puts his own words, the very words that create the new heavens and the earth in the mouths of people.

God said "And I have put my words in your mouth and covered you in the shadow of my hand, establishing the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth, and saying to zion, you are with me." Isaiah 51:16. By God's words the heavens were made... Psalm 33:6. The heavens and the earth God is making, they shall remain before me. Isaiah 66:22.

This shows that God's words create heavens and the earth Psalm 22:6, that God is still making heavens and earth Isaiah 66:22 and he puts his own words in people's mouths. Isaiah 51:16. Therefore, when a word from God is rightly spoken, that word appears before God, is adorned by God, and the word become a new heaven and earth. God's words carry authority and therefore the oral word or tradition spoken, when it contains God's words is in fact authoritative.

Oh boy.

That "illeterate t sip professor" has a degree from A&M, as well as some fancy Ivy League schools (which is pretty impressive for a straight white male practicing Catholic)

That is a hot take.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Oh boy.

That "illeterate t sip professor" has a degree from A&M, as well as some fancy Ivy League schools (which is pretty impressive for a straight white male practicing Catholic)

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Your obsession with straight white men is strange. We don't obsess over men here friend, maybe you would have better luck in Austin.

Look, I don't have any problem with the bishops authority or writing down interpretations of scripture and calling it tradition. But, Dr. Larsen made an error. Dr. Larsen gets some of his points from the Catholic Church Catechism. The [Catholic] Catechism is a rich tradition and has some great insights. But I think it falls short in at least one particular area. He cites the Catechism as his recommended reading. Paragraph 82 of that document says the [Catholic] Church "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone." I don't have a problem with the fact he uses a tradition or written interpretation and assigns it authority about revealed truths. I actually believe an oral tradition can have the same authority as scripture, though rare. My problem is that the certainty about those truths is alleged to derive outside the scripture. That is actually not true. Every word that God has ever put into someone's mouth and ever will put into someone's mouth is found within the scripture. As Elohim says, I have put my words in your mouth ... establishing the heavens and foundation of the earth with you. Isaiah 51:16-18. All of the heavens and the entire earth are contained in God's Law. Genesis 1:1-2. So to say there is a truth outside Scripture and God's law is an error. Those truths expressed in what Dr. Larsen calls tradition, if true, are God's words, which are necessarily contained within his scripture. God provides those words to people. If the words are separate from scripture, they are not from God as God's words are contained within his scripture.

The passage I quoted also refutes Newman, who Dr. Larsen cites. Newman argues an infallible ecclesiastical authority is necessary to resolve disputes and develop revealed truths. Isaiah says God will put those words in people's mouths. The people include the people of Israel, which I think we can all agree are infallible. I suppose an infallible authority could speak God's words but the scripture clearly includes fallible people speaking God's words and interpreting scripture as well.

FIDO95 said:

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"Old Aggie uses Google to refute Aggie Layman's incorrect assumptions about Catholic teaching"

AI Overview
The Deposit of Faith (depositum fidei) is the entire body of saving truth and divine revelation given by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and handed down to the Catholic Church.
Core Components
The Deposit of Faith consists of two distinct yet interconnected elements:

• Sacred Scripture: The written word of God found in the Old and New Testaments.
• Sacred Tradition: The living transmission of the word of God, taught by Jesus to the Apostles and passed down through oral preaching, early Church writings, and apostolic succession.

According to Catholic teaching, Scripture and Tradition flow from the same divine source and form a single sacred deposit of the word of God.
Key Characteristics

• Complete: Public revelation was finalized and sealed with the death of the last Apostle (St. John). No new public doctrines can be added to it.
• Unchangeable: The core substance of the faith never changes, though the Church's understanding and deeper penetration into these truths can develop over time.
• Guarded by the Magisterium: The official teaching authority of the Churchthe Pope and the bishops in communion with himis tasked with authentically interpreting, guarding, and transmitting this deposit.
• Summarized in the Catechism: The Catechism of the Catholic Church serves as a primary, systematic compendium of the doctrines contained within this sacred deposit.

"15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold on to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." -2 Thes 2:15

Who the "us" is is very important. Clearly it is the Apostles but it also includes the Bishops to whom the apostles extended Apostolic authority (which the Catholic and EO churches maintain unbroken to this day). That teaching authority, the magisterium, guides the teaching and maintains based on an unchanging deposit of faith. That authority is required to address novel matters, i.e. heresy in the early centuries of the church to modern issues such as IVF.

You can complain about it all you want. You can use Bible quotes to attempt to disprove it. Nonetheless, the historical truth is that it was that Apostolic authority that defined the table of contents of the Bible so it was well aware of the verses you are quoting. Accept, it used those words in their original language and it drew from individual with significantly lower degree of separation from the Apostles and Christ then you are attempting today. There is a reason that Dr Larson converted to Catholicism from Baptist as an adult. It's the same reason a lot of other people do when they drop their assumptions of what the Catholic Church teachings and realize that it is awfully close to what the apostles and church fathers were advocating.

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Your explanation of the church doctrine is nice. Thanks for providing that. I don't think it changes however, the fact that any word from God spoken by a human is found in his scripture and God's law. I don't think you are quite understanding the nature of my argument. I don't think your quote of Thessalonians actually establishes that the authority of words of the mouth are not contained within God's scripture. I think you can argue that text establishes the authority the words of mouth (which are found in God's scripture) which God has placed in the people's mouths. I am not arguing the spoken word from God doesn't have authority. My argument is that the "oral tradition" or God's authoritative spoken word cannot be separate from scripture because the words God has placed in people's mouths (i.e. oral tradition) is found within God's scripture. If the Catechism is from God, i.e. it was given by God, then it is found in God's scripture. If it is not found in God's scripture, then the word is not from God.

If you want to discuss history, we can. There is an older tradition that the Catholic church which has a defined table of contents that differs from your tradition. The Ethiopian Church considers the books of Enoch and other second temple literature as canonical. Its tradition is arguably older. I don't actually think the early church, apostles, and early church are the correct context of scripture. There was actually a canon of sorts in the Second Temple period as well, which predates any apostolic council. In fact, much of the church fathers are hundreds of years removed from much of the scripture.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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This is ironic because a reflection in a mirror is light. The scripture says God Law is light. So you are literally saying Protestants are appealing to Gods Law.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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Nice legitimate personal extrapolation haha. Y'all are good at that!

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Thanks, I appreciate it! To be fair I actually admire a lot of the things the Catholic Church does and what Dr. Larsen is doing. I just like to argue because its in my nature.

CrackerJackAg said:

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That is a hot take.

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As God said I will make my words in your mouth a flaming fire. Jeremiah 5:14. Fire is of course hot so you shouldn't be surprised.

codker92 said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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That is a hot take.

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As God said I will make my words in your mouth a flaming fire. Jeremiah 5:14. Fire is of course hot so you shouldn't be surprised.

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