Recently, I have attended several religious services at churches, including several weddings and general services. Some of these services were extremely elaborate. But, I did not find myself hearing much of anything from the scripture. Indeed, the speakers were content to quote from church "fathers", modern day relationship experts, and from well known Christian theologians, but not the scriptures. It left me wondering why anyone would ever want to follow a religion when that religion doesn't bother reading their own text or don't even seemingly hold it in high regard. Even posts on this forum talk about how great their own "tradition" is. If the book isn't any good then why should anyone ever bother with the faith? I guess they just show up to "feel good" about going or virtue signalling?

I did what anyone should do. I consulted the text. I learned a concealed truth. God's law is the existence and sustenance of the entire world. There was nothing that was created that is not within God's law. In Proverbs 8:30, Wisdom says she was beside God. Wisdom was God's craftsman. Proverbs 8:30. Of course, Wisdom did not create the earth. God created the world looking through his law. Genesis Rabbah teaches God's law was his instrument of craftsmanship; showing God's Wisdom is his law. This is precisely what Genesis 1:1 says. God's law already contained "In the beginning God created the Heavens...". Therefore, God looked at Genesis 1:1 and created what He saw in Genesis 1:1, he created the heaven and the earth. Literally, the heavens and the earth are found within God's law.Then God saw "let there be light" contained within the Torah and he created light. Genesis 1:3. God was not creating and then writing the scripture, God was creating what was already contained within the scripture. Literally, Psalm 33:6 teaches, by the Word of YHWH the heavens were made.

But, God created man to sustain the world through reading his law and speaking those words provided by God. In Jeremiah 33:25 it teaches If My covenant were not day and night, I would not have established the ordnances of the heavens and the earth. Joshua 1:8 teaches that the book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night. Together they teach that God's covenant is meditation on Torah day and night. As long as someone meditates on his law, the ordnances of heaven and earth remain in place. But we are not merely left to form our own words. Indeed, God himself supplies the words of those who meditate. Isaiah 59:21. God's law is the Tree of Life to those who grasp her. Proverbs 3:18. The Psalmist agrees, without the law, a person would perish. Psalm 119:92. God's law is life saving, it provides life. Psalm 119:93.

This made me think. If God used scripture to create the heavens and earth, or if you don't believe it is a sacred text, then at the very least the church fathers read it and allegedly used it to create your tradition. If scripture is the basis of a religion's tradition, then why is scripture relegated to such a secondary role for most modern religions? To me, it signals to outsiders that religions don't really believe what is in their book. I mean, just imagine going to university to learn science and everyone gets their information from mythbusters or youtube and doesn't even engage with a legitimate scientific journal. I guess I am the only person noticing this? I then saw another post about how the author wished their tradition would start torturing people again. What is wrong with you people? Have you literally learned nothing? Oh wait you haven't because you cannot read because you are illiterate and you don't read God's law.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Drinking on a Sunday?

I don't know of a single believer on this forum that doesn't hold scripture, and the reading of scripture, in high regard.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean anyone can say scripture is important to them.

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

codker92 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Drinking on a Sunday?

I don't know of a single believer on this forum that doesn't hold scripture, and the reading of scripture, in high regard.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean anyone can say scripture is important to them.

---

Does mandatory mass attendance or praying the divine office count?

Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

DirtDiver said:

---

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

---

I guess we do agree somewhat that the church fathers and theologians are a problem. Some of these theologians are better suited to Dr. Phil or Oprah than a pulpit. But my point isn't that people should trust their own understanding. As I said quoting scripture, God puts the words in people's mouths. I am not suggesting people just trust their own understanding and that is not what I did. They have to trust God will put the correct words there. I think you hit the nail on the head saying most christians don't trust the text. They might believe the bible is true because that is "tradition" or that is what everybody else does, but deep down they don't really care for it.

Jesus and his apostles did not have a pithy new testament to quote from. They did not even have the new testament. Their scripture was the old testament and the other second temple scripture, period. From a correct perspective then we can say the New Testament is an inspired commentary, not necessarily the original scripture.

I don't see the word of God being a negative. You seem to have listed the Word of God as making people uncomfortable, which scares them away. If you truly believe God chose particular word, spoke through prophets, and preserved those words, the words deserve more than relegation to an afterthought. I promise you the people coming into your church realize it. It won't take them long to see your religion doesn't value the text and in my honest opinion it seems disingenuous to start asking people to give money, change their opinions, introduce people to God's word, and do chores for a church which doesn't even seemingly believe in its own text.

Imagine going to the doctor and he prescribes you a pill. But the doctor says he doesn't know how the pill works and doesn't hasn't read any medical journal. What? I am not taking that pill and I won't be back to that doctor. If you want people to introduce people to God's word in a way that they see the value, you first need to show you value the text. I think that means at least a rudimentary understanding of all of it, not just the nice sounding commentary at the back.

So to answer your question. You need people to engage with scripture and God will put his words in their mouths. People need to get closer to the texts themselves rather than just adding a layer of someone else telling them what those texts mean. Intepretation is inevitable, but it seems like the more we interpretation we add, the farther away from the text we get.

If we believe God chose particular words, spoke through particular prophets, and preserved those words as Scripture, then don't those words deserve more than being the starting point from which we quickly move on to something else?

Quote:

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So to answer your question. You need people to engage with scripture and God will put his words in their mouths. People need to get closer to the texts themselves rather than just adding a layer of someone else telling them what those texts mean. Intepretation is inevitable, but it seems like the more we interpretation we add, the farther away from the text we get.

If we believe God chose particular words, spoke through particular prophets, and preserved those words as Scripture, then don't those words deserve more than being the starting point from which we quickly move on to something else?

---

I'm getting a little lost. What is your one key take away, question, or objection?

Some may argue that the number one problem in the church is a biblical comprehension problem.

We have the written text, Gen-Rev, given by God to humanity.
We have access to the text in our own language.
There are millions of people that do not comprehend what they are reading in the Bible and do not know how to interpret scripture (see how many people get interpretations wrong and why).

As believers if we are convinced that the scriptures are true, authoritative, and valuable, are we teaching others the skill sets of interpretation so that they can drink deeply from the source and teacher others as well?

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Bob Lee said:

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codker92 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

---

Drinking on a Sunday?

I don't know of a single believer on this forum that doesn't hold scripture, and the reading of scripture, in high regard.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean anyone can say scripture is important to them.

---

Does mandatory mass attendance or praying the divine office count?

---

I think that is a start but I don't think it where I mean to finish. I don't think hearing God's word is the end. God's word must come from their mouth, even the mouths of their children, the universe depends on it. Do those people hearing God's word know the words they are speaking will save the world? The divine truth is this. Psalms teaches Touch not my anointed ones and do my prophets no harm Psalm 105:15; see also Chronicles 16:22. The anointed are children and the prophets are the scholars. We know the children are the anointed ones because Psalm 8 says YHWH established strength from the mouths of infants. A person anointed by God is given strength. Isaiah 54:13 says all children shall be taught of YHWH. When children study God's law the Shekhinah comes and anoints them and gives them strength to study. Why does God strengthen the children? Because their words and their study creates the very substance that saves the universe. The children's study did not stop even for rebuilding the temple. Jesus himself agrees. When Jesus entered the temple he took a colt to the temple to destroy it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children.

Holding scripture in high regard is not enough to save the universe. The study and word must proceed or else the entire universe will be destroyed.

I was under the impression that most Christians believed in an eschatology that didn't include the destruction of the entire universe. Curious that you view that as a legitimate possibility.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Brother, who do you think you are arguing against?

Again, there might be some shallow, reading the Bible isn't important, Christians out there, but none of them post on this board, that I am aware of.

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You said I am arguing with who? I would argue with who. Scripture says Who created these. Isaiah 40:26. These being the heavens. Clearly God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1. Therefore, God is Who. So it appears to me you are asking me if I would argue with God. And yes I would. Im sick of this garbage. When is God going to put words in these people's mouths? Im sick of Acquinas, I am sick of the church fathers.

dermdoc said:

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Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean this respectfully.

codker92 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean this respectfully.

---

Can you give an example of what this would look like? What practices in YOUR tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining scripture?

Rocag said:

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I was under the impression that most Christians believed in an eschatology that didn't include the destruction of the entire universe. Curious that you view that as a legitimate possibility.

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I don't think it is possible to seriously engage in God's law and think the universe cannot be destroyed. Jeremiah 33:25 says were is not for my covenant of day and night, I would not have established heaven and earth. God commands everyone meditate on his law day and night. Joshua 1:8. The righteous person [presumably the person following God's law] meditates on his law day and night. Therefore, with out God's law, and people meditating on it, the universe would be destroyed.

[In full disclosure I copied this from another reply but the point is the same]. God's law reveals divine truth. The divine truth is this. Children reading God's law is the only thing keeping the worl from being destoyed. Psalms teaches Touch not my anointed ones and do my prophets no harm Psalm 105:15; see also Chronicles 16:22. The anointed are children and the prophets are the scholars. We know the children are the anointed ones because Psalm 8 says YHWH established strength from the mouths of infants. A person anointed by God is given strength. Isaiah 54:13 says all children shall be taught of YHWH. When children study God's law the Shekhinah comes and anoints them and gives them strength to study. Why does God strengthen the children? Because their words and their study creates the very substance that saves the universe. The children's study did not stop even for rebuilding the temple. Jesus himself agrees. When Jesus entered the temple he took rode a colt to the temple to destroy it and wage war against it. Jesus fully intended to destroy the temple that day. But, the children shouted . Matthew 21:12-17 and Jesus decided to spare the temple for the sake of the children.

Only when the houses of God are silent and there are no voices of children proclaiming God's law will the universe be destroyed.

DirtDiver said:

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Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

---

Maybe start with not making it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means; i.e., it's meaningless?

codker92 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean this respectfully.

---

To my knowledge there is no way to force people to to critically examine Scripture. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are asking.

https://share.google/EXjEotSLahGrx66VQ

Bob Lee said:

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codker92 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean this respectfully.

---

Can you give an example of what this would look like? What practices in YOUR tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining scripture?

---

I don't subscribe to a tradition. That is my point. I don't think anyone needs a tradition. I do practice. That practice is wrestling with God's word and asking difficult questions and leaving nothing on the table unexamined. When you wrestle with God he puts his own words in your mouth. Isaiah 51:16 teaches God himself places his words in the mouth to plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth with him. When someone genuinely engages with God's law and creates a new meaning, that word ascends to heaven before God. God adorns that word and the word spoken creates a new heaven and earth. God's prophets teach he will create a new heavens and earth. Isaiah 66:22. He does this with people speaking his word.

dermdoc said:

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codker92 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Our church teaches straight from Scripture and emails daily Scriptural reading. Every church I have been associated with does this.

---

What practices in your tradition ensure that people are hearing and examining Scripture, rather than simply being told that it is important? I mean this respectfully.

---

To my knowledge there is no way to force people to to critically examine Scripture. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are asking.

---

Look. Nehemiah 8:8 says "they read from the book of the law. God made it clear and gave the meaning so the people understood what was being read". I think people are subscribing to their own tradition what is actually God's growth.

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

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So to answer your question. You need people to engage with scripture and God will put his words in their mouths. People need to get closer to the texts themselves rather than just adding a layer of someone else telling them what those texts mean. Intepretation is inevitable, but it seems like the more we interpretation we add, the farther away from the text we get.

If we believe God chose particular words, spoke through particular prophets, and preserved those words as Scripture, then don't those words deserve more than being the starting point from which we quickly move on to something else?

---

I'm getting a little lost. What is your one key take away, question, or objection?

Some may argue that the number one problem in the church is a biblical comprehension problem.

We have the written text, Gen-Rev, given by God to humanity.
We have access to the text in our own language.
There are millions of people that do not comprehend what they are reading in the Bible and do not know how to interpret scripture (see how many people get interpretations wrong and why).

As believers if we are convinced that the scriptures are true, authoritative, and valuable, are we teaching others the skill sets of interpretation so that they can drink deeply from the source and teacher others as well?

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

---

I think we are pretty close. I just want to clarify I don't think people should rely solely on their own understanding though. True, biblical comprehension is the apparent symptomatic problem but the true cause underlying is more than an inability to read. Nehemiah 8:8 teaches that God himself taught people. I think we need be careful undderstand we must rely on God's words and not solely on our own. I do one hundred percent agree with you that each and every party of scripture is good for teaching. Solomon was the greatest ever. He spoke 3000 proveerbs and dhis songs were 3005. His breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 1 Kigs 4:20-32. Solomon said "I will be wise, but it was far from me.. Ecclesiastes 7:23. Not even Solomon himself mastered God's law on his own. But David said Open my eyes that I may behold wondrous things from your law. Psalm 119:18. God's law then has more interpretations than there is sand on the sea shore.

codker92 said:

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DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

So to answer your question. You need people to engage with scripture and God will put his words in their mouths. People need to get closer to the texts themselves rather than just adding a layer of someone else telling them what those texts mean. Intepretation is inevitable, but it seems like the more we interpretation we add, the farther away from the text we get.

If we believe God chose particular words, spoke through particular prophets, and preserved those words as Scripture, then don't those words deserve more than being the starting point from which we quickly move on to something else?

---

I'm getting a little lost. What is your one key take away, question, or objection?

Some may argue that the number one problem in the church is a biblical comprehension problem.

We have the written text, Gen-Rev, given by God to humanity.
We have access to the text in our own language.
There are millions of people that do not comprehend what they are reading in the Bible and do not know how to interpret scripture (see how many people get interpretations wrong and why).

As believers if we are convinced that the scriptures are true, authoritative, and valuable, are we teaching others the skill sets of interpretation so that they can drink deeply from the source and teacher others as well?

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

---

I think we are pretty close. I just want to clarify I don't think people should rely solely on their own understanding though. True, biblical comprehension is the apparent symptomatic problem but the true cause underlying is more than an inability to read. Nehemiah 8:8 teaches that God himself taught people. I think we need be careful undderstand we must rely on God's words and not solely on our own. I do one hundred percent agree with you that each and every party of scripture is good for teaching. Solomon was the greatest ever. He spoke 3000 proveerbs and dhis songs were 3005. His breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 1 Kigs 4:20-32. Solomon said "I will be wise, but it was far from me.. Ecclesiastes 7:23. Not even Solomon himself mastered God's law on his own. But David said Open my eyes that I may behold wondrous things from your law. Psalm 119:18. God's law then has more interpretations than there is sand on the sea shore.

---

Your bolded makes no sense

7 The LevitesJeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiahinstructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there. 8 They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear[a] and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read.

The Banned said:

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codker92 said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

So to answer your question. You need people to engage with scripture and God will put his words in their mouths. People need to get closer to the texts themselves rather than just adding a layer of someone else telling them what those texts mean. Intepretation is inevitable, but it seems like the more we interpretation we add, the farther away from the text we get.

If we believe God chose particular words, spoke through particular prophets, and preserved those words as Scripture, then don't those words deserve more than being the starting point from which we quickly move on to something else?

---

I'm getting a little lost. What is your one key take away, question, or objection?

Some may argue that the number one problem in the church is a biblical comprehension problem.

We have the written text, Gen-Rev, given by God to humanity.
We have access to the text in our own language.
There are millions of people that do not comprehend what they are reading in the Bible and do not know how to interpret scripture (see how many people get interpretations wrong and why).

As believers if we are convinced that the scriptures are true, authoritative, and valuable, are we teaching others the skill sets of interpretation so that they can drink deeply from the source and teacher others as well?

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

---

I think we are pretty close. I just want to clarify I don't think people should rely solely on their own understanding though. True, biblical comprehension is the apparent symptomatic problem but the true cause underlying is more than an inability to read. Nehemiah 8:8 teaches that God himself taught people. I think we need be careful undderstand we must rely on God's words and not solely on our own. I do one hundred percent agree with you that each and every party of scripture is good for teaching. Solomon was the greatest ever. He spoke 3000 proveerbs and dhis songs were 3005. His breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 1 Kigs 4:20-32. Solomon said "I will be wise, but it was far from me.. Ecclesiastes 7:23. Not even Solomon himself mastered God's law on his own. But David said Open my eyes that I may behold wondrous things from your law. Psalm 119:18. God's law then has more interpretations than there is sand on the sea shore.

---

Your bolded makes no sense

7 The LevitesJeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiahinstructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there. 8 They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear[a] and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read.

---

The verses and their divisions were added later. The original Hebrew text grammar reads beginning at verse 8 "They read from the Book of the Law. God [Elohim] made it clear and gave the meaning so that people understood what was being read. Your grammar is mixed up.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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DirtDiver said:

---

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

---

Maybe start with not making it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means; i.e., it's meaningless?

---

Huh? In other words, we should start with scripture doesn't mean what it says? I may be getting lost again.

For clarification:
1. I'm convinced God is the author of scripture.
2. He's allowed us to have it in our language for the purpose that we would comprehend what it says.
3. It's sufficient to know who God is, what His objectives are through history, and our interaction with it is powerful and a tool God uses to transform us. (no, we cannot know God in full but we can know all that He has intended for us at this time.
4. Satan twists scripture as does mankind. It means what it says despite it's ability to be misinterpreted.
5. It takes both God's grace and effort to understand it. (reading comprehension skills)

DirtDiver said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

---

Maybe start with not making it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means; i.e., it's meaningless?

---

Huh? In other words, we should start with scripture doesn't mean what it says? I may be getting lost again.

For clarification:
1. I'm convinced God is the author of scripture.
2. He's allowed us to have it in our language for the purpose that we would comprehend what it says.
3. It's sufficient to know who God is, what His objectives are through history, and our interaction with it is powerful and a tool God uses to transform us. (no, we cannot know God in full but we can know all that He has intended for us at this time.
4. Satan twists scripture as does mankind. It means what it says despite it's ability to be misinterpreted.
5. It takes both God's grace and effort to understand it. (reading comprehension skills)

---

I am sure it was just my snarky tone.

In response to the original query, I was suggesting that it would be useful to not make it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means, which has the effect of making Scripture unintelligible; i.e., if Scripture means whatever any man and his Bible says it means, then it is meaningless. Analogous to the idea that if everything is right then nothing is wrong.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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DirtDiver said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

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Maybe start with not making it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means; i.e., it's meaningless?

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Huh? In other words, we should start with scripture doesn't mean what it says? I may be getting lost again.

For clarification:
1. I'm convinced God is the author of scripture.
2. He's allowed us to have it in our language for the purpose that we would comprehend what it says.
3. It's sufficient to know who God is, what His objectives are through history, and our interaction with it is powerful and a tool God uses to transform us. (no, we cannot know God in full but we can know all that He has intended for us at this time.
4. Satan twists scripture as does mankind. It means what it says despite it's ability to be misinterpreted.
5. It takes both God's grace and effort to understand it. (reading comprehension skills)

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I am sure it was just my snarky tone.

In response to the original query, I was suggesting that it would be useful to not make it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means, which has the effect of making Scripture unintelligible; i.e., if Scripture means whatever any man and his Bible says it means, then it is meaningless. Analogous to the idea that if everything is right then nothing is wrong.

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I'm picking up what you are laying down, now. Thanks for the clarification. Agreed.

Worst Bible study: "Read this section and tell me what this means to you"

Best Bible Studies:
What are your observations?
What are the interpretive options?
Evaluate the evidence the supports/contradicts each interpretive option.
Word Studies
What did the author (God ultimately) intend?
Whose the audience?
What is true about the audience?
What does the author want the audience to know, be, or do?

What do I learn about God and HIs objectives? What should I do in response to what I learn?

DirtDiver said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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DirtDiver said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

From Genesis:
"Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!


The character of God and the words of God have been under siege from the beginning and there's nothing new under the sun. The same is true today. A few thoughts:

• Many Christians believe that the Bible is true but based upon blind faith vs evidence.
• Some Christians may not trust the text completely from Gen to Rev.
• Many Christians trust theologians or church fathers over their own ability to read/comprehend the text.
• The Word of God is powerful and sharp...and is very uncomfortable when it starts exposing our own sin, people don't like discomfort even when it's necessary
• Many Christians have never taken a class in how to interpret scripture (the same skills we leaned in English or reading comprehension classes).
• There's a spiritual battle waging for our attention, and our trust in God and His word.

The challenge: What are we doing to introduce people to God's words in a way that they see the value that we see?

---

Maybe start with not making it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means; i.e., it's meaningless?

---

Huh? In other words, we should start with scripture doesn't mean what it says? I may be getting lost again.

For clarification:
1. I'm convinced God is the author of scripture.
2. He's allowed us to have it in our language for the purpose that we would comprehend what it says.
3. It's sufficient to know who God is, what His objectives are through history, and our interaction with it is powerful and a tool God uses to transform us. (no, we cannot know God in full but we can know all that He has intended for us at this time.
4. Satan twists scripture as does mankind. It means what it says despite it's ability to be misinterpreted.
5. It takes both God's grace and effort to understand it. (reading comprehension skills)

---

I am sure it was just my snarky tone.

In response to the original query, I was suggesting that it would be useful to not make it entirely subjective by standing on the doctrine that scripture means what each man and his Bible says it means, which has the effect of making Scripture unintelligible; i.e., if Scripture means whatever any man and his Bible says it means, then it is meaningless. Analogous to the idea that if everything is right then nothing is wrong.

---

I'm picking up what you are laying down, now. Thanks for the clarification. Agreed.

Worst Bible study: "Read this section and tell me what this means to you"

Best Bible Studies:
What are your observations?
What are the interpretive options?
Evaluate the evidence the supports/contradicts each interpretive option.
Word Studies
What did the author (God ultimately) intend?
Whose the audience?
What is true about the audience?
What does the author want the audience to know, be, or do?

What do I learn about God and HIs objectives? What should I do in response to what I learn?

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I think there is a disconnect with what some of our friends are thinking is relativism or postmodernism and what is polysemy, which means there are multiple correct meanings which are firm, but the correct meaning can change depending on the context of the passage.