I think this is a really impactful way to get honest and serious about your life and its purpose and how you are living it.

I agree with everything he said. Ontological salvation. Jesus talked very little about post mortem stuff. He talked a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven being here. Now. The Gospel is not a "Get out of hell card". It is about choosing to follow Christ and becoming more Christlike everyday. Prayer, fasting, contemplation, caring for widows and orphans, caring for the poor and prisoners, etc. is what is constantly mentioned in Scripture.
Read the parable of the sheep and goats. What does it say the difference is between the two groups? Not a proclamation of faith. Not a "sinner's prayer". Not the right theology. It is written very clearly. But people ignore it. We choose heaven or "hell". And both begin in this life. All we have to do is believe God loves us. And trust Him.

Hey...so.. um said:

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Can you give a summary or something?

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Heaven might not be what some people think it is and that misapprehension means they might need to rethink the purpose of their lives and how they are living NOW.

ToddyHill said:

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Didn't watch the video…just replying to your question.

There isn't a day that goes by that I pray the Lord takes me home!!!

In all candor, if I am 'In Christ,' why would I not want to be in Heaven?

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I would ask "what do you mean by "in Christ"?"

But I suggest simply watching the video.

dermdoc said:

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I agree with everything he said. Ontological salvation. Jesus talked very little about post mortem stuff. He talked a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven being here. Now. The Gospel is not a "Get out of hell card". It is about choosing to follow Christ and becoming more Christlike everyday. Prayer, fasting, contemplation, caring for widows and orphans, caring for the poor and prisoners, etc. is what is constantly mentioned in Scripture.
Read the parable of the sheep and goats. What does it say the difference is between the two groups? Not a proclamation of faith. Not a "sinner's prayer". Not the right theology. It is written very clearly. But people ignore it. We choose heaven or "hell". And both begin in this life. All we have to do is believe God loves us. And trust Him.

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Spot on.

CS Lewis describes this in a very interesting way in The Great Divorce. He also sums it up when he says hell is locked from the inside.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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I agree with everything he said. Ontological salvation. Jesus talked very little about post mortem stuff. He talked a lot about the Kingdom of Heaven being here. Now. The Gospel is not a "Get out of hell card". It is about choosing to follow Christ and becoming more Christlike everyday. Prayer, fasting, contemplation, caring for widows and orphans, caring for the poor and prisoners, etc. is what is constantly mentioned in Scripture.
Read the parable of the sheep and goats. What does it say the difference is between the two groups? Not a proclamation of faith. Not a "sinner's prayer". Not the right theology. It is written very clearly. But people ignore it. We choose heaven or "hell". And both begin in this life. All we have to do is believe God loves us. And trust Him.

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Spot on.

CS Lewis describes this in a very interesting way in The Great Divorce. He also sums it up when he says hell is locked from the inside.

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And if there is ECT hell, this is the only theology that keeps God from being a sinner. Creating people preordained to ECT hell is not just,

I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am a sinner, and there is nothing I can do to be right with God. As such, I accept that Jesus died for me…and I confessed, repented, and asked God to forgive me.

ToddyHill said:

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I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am a sinner, and there is nothing I can do to be right with God. As such, I accept that Jesus died for me…and I confessed, repented, and asked God to forgive me.

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Cool. Now what? That is what Jesus talked about more than anything else.

ToddyHill said:

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I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I am a sinner, and there is nothing I can do to be right with God. As such, I accept that Jesus died for me…and I confessed, repented, and asked God to forgive me.

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Thanks for your reply.

I recommend watching the video.

I watched the video.

John 3:16
Romans 10:9

That's what I'd suggest as one's focus.

Just my opinion…it's not that complicated…but getting to that point where I recognized my wretchedness took a long, long, long time. God had to break me into pieces to get me to the point where I realized I needed Him.

And by His grace, He saved me.

To God be the glory!

ToddyHill said:

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I watched the video.

John 3:16
Romans 10:9

That's what I'd suggest as one's focus.

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What are you saved from? What are the wages of sin?
And yes to God be the glory!

ToddyHill said:

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I watched the video.

John 3:16
Romans 10:9

That's what I'd suggest as one's focus.

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Thanks.

I will take that under advisement.

Since they're specifically mentioned in the video, how do you understand Revelation 21:27?

But nothing unclean shall enter it [the New Jerusalem/Heaven], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Or Hebrews 12:14?

"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

Or what about Matthew 5:48?

"You, therefore, must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Or Revelation 3:5, where Jesus states: "He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life."

Or Matthew 10:22?

"He who endures to the end will be saved"

It seemed odd to me to compare what we feel (i.e. happiness, envy, unworthiness) in a our physical existence to what life will be like in a metaphysical existence. Rather, the idea he poses that we may not like Heaven because we would get there and feel inadequate to others. I have more of a sense that Heaven is more of being the presence of a loving God and spending eternity in worship of Him. I'm not there to compare myself to other beings.

I think a more interesting question is the one posed by Theo Vonn stemming from John 5 and the story of the healing at Bethesda:

"5 Now a man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. 6 Jesus, upon seeing this man lying there and knowing that he had already been in that condition for a long time, *said to him, "Do you want to get well?" -John 5:5-6



This is such a powerful prayer and testimony if you have not yet heard it. It had me in tears. So much raw truth in the idea/reality that we say we want to get better but there is a part of us that knows we are lying. We need God to fix even that part of us. Perhaps I do agree with Brian H in the video above where we do have to be willing to sacrifice for become Saints. No one becomes a Saint chasing happiness; That is a fools errand. One becomes a saint through Agape, the love of self sacrifice for another.

FIDO95 said:

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It seemed odd to me to compare what we feel (i.e. happiness, envy, unworthiness) in a our physical existence to what life will be like in a metaphysical existence. Rather, the idea he poses that we may not like Heaven because we would get there and feel inadequate to others. I have more of a sense that Heaven is more of being the presence of a loving God and spending eternity in worship of Him. I'm not there to compare myself to other beings.

I think a more interesting question is the one posed by Theo Vonn stemming from John 5 and the story of the healing at Bethesda:

"5 Now a man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. 6 Jesus, upon seeing this man lying there and knowing that he had already been in that condition for a long time, *said to him, "Do you want to get well?" -John 5:5-6



This is such a powerful prayer and testimony if you have not yet heard it. It had me in tears. So much raw truth in the idea/reality that we say we want to get better but there is a part of us that knows we are lying. We need God to fix even that part of us. Perhaps I do agree with Brian H in the video above where we do have to be willing to sacrifice for become Saints. No one becomes a Saint chasing happiness; That is a fools errand. One becomes a saint through Agape, the love of self sacrifice for another.

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Fair.

I understood Brian to be suggesting that we have to get on with the business of transforming our lives now, which is only possible by God's grace, so that we are ready for heaven. We are called to conform ourselves to Christ, and in doing so we accept our crosses (suffering/trials) as the means by which we become detached from those things that will separate us from beatitude. It's theosis, the process of being made to partake of the divine nature, and it is realized through kenosis, which is the emptying of ourselves as we are filled with the the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Executive Summary: if we don't learn to sacrificially love others in the here and now, as God loves them, what makes us think we will love being forever in a place where our existence is entirely about giving ourselves away in worship of God?

The virtues we grow in during this life are our currency in the Kingdom of God NOW, but they follow us to the next life because they become more and more who we are here, and there where they will simply be who and what we are as we grow evermore united to God, who is love itself. Love is the only thing we "take with us" as we enter the beatific vision.

Everything else is "burned away" by God's all-consuming fire (1 Corinthians 3:13-15: Malachi 3:2; Hebrews 12:29)

I agree. Comparing our earthly lives is ridiculous to compare to our eternal lives. If I'm the last it will be infinitely better than earthly life.

I think this goes along with the Orthodox view of heaven and hell. We will all be in the presence of God for eternity. For those who love Him, it will be the culmination of bliss and eternal joy. For those who reject Him, it will be intense displeasure, being in the presence of God whom they rejected. And there will be remorse as mentioned by the weeping and gnashing of teeth. They end up choosing eternal separation from the Good.
And this process begins now. In this life. The kingdom of Heaven is here now.

For those who want a summary:

Here is a summary of the video "You Probably Don't Want Heaven" by Brian Holdsworth:

1. The Misconception of Heaven

* Assumed Desire: While surveys show a vast majority of people believe in life after death and expect to go to Heaven, most assume it is simply something they want [00:00].

* The Cost of Happiness: True, supreme happiness requires supreme sacrificesjust as achieving physical fitness requires hard work, self-denial, and discipline [01:00]. Many people are unwilling to pay small costs for happiness now, yet expect infinite happiness without cost later [01:40].

2. The Reality of Moral Perfection

* Requirement of Perfection: For Heaven to be a place of perfect peace, every individual in it must be completely faultless and morally perfect; otherwise, harm or disharmony would exist [02:44].

* The Discomfort of Being Outmatched: Being imperfect in a room full of perfect individuals would cause envy, anxiety, and insecurity rather than joymuch like an average athlete playing in a professional league [03:41], [12:17].

* Burden of Unearned Rewards: Receiving an immense gift without being prepared for it leads to ruin (e.g., lottery winners going bankrupt) [06:14].

3. The Pain of Transformation

* Biblical Requirement: Scripture states that "nothing unclean" can enter Heaven and that we must strive for holiness [06:54].

* Self-Denial: Growth requires pain, self-denial, and "carrying one's cross" [07:23], [08:04]. Christ set an example of sacrifice and simplicity to demonstrate the dramatic transformation required [08:11].

4. What Heaven Actually Is

* No "New" Activities: Heaven is outside of time (which measures change). Since perfection is achieved, there are no new hobbies, events, or changes [09:34].

* Contemplation of God: Heaven is not self-indulgent entertainment; it is the unending, prayerful contemplation and worship of God's infinite beauty and splendor (the beatific vision) [10:05], [11:16].

5. Preparing for Heaven

* Train Your Soul Now: If someone finds prayer and quiet contemplation boring or uncomfortable now, they will not enjoy Heaven [11:42].

* Current Preparation: Learning to rest in God's presence through prayer and self-denial today is necessary to prepare for eternal life [12:01].

A few thoughts...

"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him." 1 Cor. 2

You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever. Psalm 16:11

3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:3


Quote from Samuel Rutherford.
"O my Lord Jesus Christ, if I could be in heaven without thee, it would be a hell; and if I could be in hell, and have thee still, it would be a heaven to me, for thou art all the heaven I want."


The reward of heaven is God Himself. Being with Him and near Him in His presence. The last thing this is, is boring (see Psalm 16:11). The bonus prizes are the removal of all of the curses in which we have only ever know life by (death, pain, broken relationships).


Eternal life is guaranteed up front and is 100% free, because of the priceless work of Christ for all who believe. It cannot be earned, obtained, or bought in this life through our efforts or actions. If it could be, Christ would not have needed to come and die.

A point where I disagree with the author..

God does want us to self indulge....

....in the right way at the right time. He want's us to...store up for ourselves treasure in Heaven.

18 so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;

If you have trusted Christ freely, are you now storing up treasures for yourself on earth or in heaven? Are you pressing on to maturity in Christ or are you staying an infant who will be with God in heaven without reward?

I think there will be believers in heaven with disparity of riches. The author of the video I don't think observed this. As earthly cursed humans it's nearly impossible for us to imagine this because our broken nature is jealous vs congratulatory. Remember one reward of heaven is that we are different than we are now. We can be naked and not ashamed. I think we will be congratulatory without being jealous.