The Reliability of the Canon

4,950 Views | 113 Replies | Last: 9 days ago by Faithful Ag
Zobel
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AG
1. This is a Christian discussion and the claim is made based on the Gospels which you reject, and more or less is an appeal to (further) Jewish (non-Christian) authority. So, whatever.

2-3. None of this addresses the crux of the issue, which is very simple and very specific: the canon was not fixed in the first century, so appeal to some hypothetical Jewish canon is futile.
Aggies1322
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AG
Zobel said:

The Old Testament is about Christ. If you miss that, your expertise is pretty suspect.

There wasn't a monolithic Judaism in the first century AD. Different communities had wildly different sets of scripture. So which Jews were experts? The Sadducees who didn't accept anything but the first five books? Or the Pharisees who used something like the modern OT? (There were more with different canons but start there).

Whose canon should we use?


I never claimed that the OT is not about Christ. The OT is the foretelling of Christ and the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. I don't really think I'm going to change anyone's mind on the apocryphal texts - I just think that there is more evidence pointing towards the Protestant canon. All that matters is Christ crucified, everything else is just noise.
Zobel
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AG
I didn't say you claimed it wasn't about Christ. You appealed to Jewish authority on the matter - but they reject Christ, why should we even consider their opinions on the scriptures we view as divinely inspired and authoritative in our faith? Especially considering some of these opinions are a) theologically motivated specifically against Christian Messianic claims and b) post-date the resurrection often by centuries?

I don't understand how you're using "evidence" here. Can you explain that a little please?
Athanasius
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

I recognize that I'm not going to convince anyone on this board that the Catholic Church is the one true Church

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church....just as the Nicene Creed says. I just don't believe it is the one that Rome commandeered.

"commandeered" ?

  • St. Peter (c. 30 c. 67 AD)
  • St. Linus (c. 67 c. 76 AD)
  • St. Anacletus / Cletus (c. 76 c. 88 AD)
  • St. Clement I (c. 88 c. 99 AD)
  • St. Evaristus (c. 99 c. 105 AD)
  • St. Alexander I (c. 105 c. 115 AD)
  • St. Sixtus I (c. 115 c. 125 AD)
  • St. Telesphorus (c. 125 c. 136 AD)
  • St. Hyginus (c. 136 c. 140 AD)
  • St. Pius I (c. 140 c. 155 AD)
  • St. Anicetus (c. 155 c. 166 AD)
  • St. Soter (c. 166 c. 175 AD)
  • St. Eleutherius (c. 175 c. 189 AD)
  • St. Victor I (c. 189 c. 199 AD)
  • St. Zephyrinus (199 217 AD)
  • St. Callixtus I (c. 217 c. 222 AD)
  • St. Urban I (222 230 AD)
  • St. Pontian (230 235 AD)
  • St. Anterus (235 236 AD)
  • St. Fabian (236 250 AD)
  • St. Cornelius (251 253 AD)
  • St. Lucius I (253 254 AD)
  • St. Stephen I (254 257 AD)
  • St. Sixtus II (257 258 AD)
  • St. Dionysius (259 268 AD)
  • St. Felix I (269 274 AD)
  • St. Eutychian (275 283 AD)
  • St. Caius (283 296 AD)
  • St. Marcellinus (296 304 AD)
  • St. Marcellus I (308 309 AD)
  • St. Eusebius (309 or 310 AD)
  • St. Miltiades (311 314 AD)
  • St. Sylvester I (314 335 AD) (<--- council of Nicea- that gave you the creed you profess.)
  • Aggies1322
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    AG
    Zobel said:

    I didn't say you claimed it wasn't about Christ. You appealed to Jewish authority on the matter - but they reject Christ, why should we even consider their opinions on the scriptures we view as divinely inspired and authoritative in our faith? Especially considering some of these opinions are a) theologically motivated specifically against Christian Messianic claims and b) post-date the resurrection often by centuries?

    I don't understand how you're using "evidence" here. Can you explain that a little please?


    Jews are still Gods chosen people, we gentiles were just grafted into the branch. I think it is safe to say that those who were saved prior to Christ were overwhelmingly Jewish. Meaning, up until they denied the divinity of Christ, their theology was our own.

    As for the evidence - I'll leave you with this guy who can articulate it better than myself:

    Zobel
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    AG
    Quote:

    Jews are still Gods chosen people, we gentiles were just grafted into the branch. I think it is safe to say that those who were saved prior to Christ were overwhelmingly Jewish. Meaning, up until they denied the divinity of Christ, their theology was our own.

    Jews are not God's chosen people. The people of God is Israel. God didn't choose Jews out of all the peoples of the world, He created a new nation to be an example to all people and ultimately to be the salvation of all people.

    The Jews were one tribe out of that nation - Judah. The Torah or Law wasn't given to the Jews, it was given to Israel. The covenants weren't given to the Jews, they were given to Abraham and Israel. The son can't be greater than the father.

    To use your (St Paul's) metaphor, Judah is just one branch on the root, which is Israel. Branches were broken off - all the other tribes. Branches were grafted in. St Paul clearly says in fact that faithless Judeans (ie Jews) are already broken off and in need of being grafted back - "And even if they [my fellow Jews] do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again".

    There was no monolithic Judaism of the first century. And not only is modern Rabbinic Judaism not Christianity minus Christ (what that exactly would even be I'm not entirely sure) it is materially different than what the various Judaisms of the first century looked like.

    So no, their theology is not our own. Those who were faithful to God before Christ's Incarnation were faithful to Christ, and were therefore part of Israel - the faithful people of God. What you're describing is like talking about dry water.
    The Banned
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    Aggies1322 said:

    The Banned said:

    Aggies1322 said:

    The Banned said:

    10andBOUNCE said:

    The Banned said:

    10andBOUNCE said:

    The Banned said:

    I recognize that I'm not going to convince anyone on this board that the Catholic Church is the one true Church

    I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church....just as the Nicene Creed says. I just don't believe it is the one that Rome commandeered.

    Why do you believe that? Where does that belief come from?

    What occurred at Nicea can be substantiated by Scripture so I am fine calling it a legitimate Council and the Creed that came of it is good

    How do you know what Scripture is or isn't? That was the whole point of the OP...

    Just look at what the Jews consider their holy texts. Do you see the apocryphal texts? No. Once the Pentateuch began adopting apocryphal texts, the Jews began rejecting the Pentateuch. Hth.

    So we should trust the Jews who did not believe in Jesus over the early Christians who did believe in Jesus and learned from the apostles?

    When discussing the Old Testament.. yeah I think the Jews are experts..

    So 1st and 2nd century Jews that didn't become Christians CORRECTLY identified the OT, INCORRECTLY, interpretted the message of those books, INCORRECTLY rejected Jesus and INCORRECTLY failed to identify the NT as scripture

    The 1st and 2nd century Jews that did become Christians INCORRECTLY identified what belonged in OT but CORRECTLY interpreted the message of the correct and incorrect books, so they CORRECTLY followed Jesus. Then they CORRECTLY identified the NT books, then INCORRECTLY interpreted those books (despite nailing the interpretation of the OT books), leading to severely INCORRECT understanding of the true Christian doctrine?

    Both groups failed to identify scripture correctly, and both groups came to incorrect beliefs about God/Jesus/Christian doctrine based on selectively flawed interpretation. So when considering the point of the OP, do either of these groups seem to show reliable judgement?
    FTACo88-FDT24dad
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    AG
    Zobel said:

    Quote:

    Jews are still Gods chosen people, we gentiles were just grafted into the branch. I think it is safe to say that those who were saved prior to Christ were overwhelmingly Jewish. Meaning, up until they denied the divinity of Christ, their theology was our own.

    Jews are not God's chosen people. The people of God is Israel. God didn't choose Jews out of all the peoples of the world, He created a new nation to be an example to all people and ultimately to be the salvation of all people.

    The Jews were one tribe out of that nation - Judah. The Torah or Law wasn't given to the Jews, it was given to Israel. The covenants weren't given to the Jews, they were given to Abraham and Israel. The son can't be greater than the father.

    To use your (St Paul's) metaphor, Judah is just one branch on the root, which is Israel. Branches were broken off - all the other tribes. Branches were grafted in. St Paul clearly says in fact that faithless Judeans (ie Jews) are already broken off and in need of being grafted back - "And even if they [my fellow Jews] do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again".

    There was no monolithic Judaism of the first century. And not only is modern Rabbinic Judaism not Christianity minus Christ (what that exactly would even be I'm not entirely sure) it is materially different than what the various Judaisms of the first century looked like.

    So no, their theology is not our own. Those who were faithful to God before Christ's Incarnation were faithful to Christ, and were therefore part of Israel - the faithful people of God. What you're describing is like talking about dry water.


    Further to this excellent post:

    Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately two-thirds of them came from the Septuagint the Greek translation of the Old Testament which included the deuterocanonical books that were later removed. It was natural for the authors of the New Testament to lift quotes from the Septuagint while writing in Greek to the Church. And most importantly: the Greek New Testament is the inspired word of God, and the Holy Spirit chose to have the sacred authors repeatedly cite the Septuagint.

    Here are a few of the approximately 200 Septuagint (LXX) quotes:

    The Gospels

    Jesus Himself
    1. Mark 7:68 / Isaiah 29:13 Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint: "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men."
    2. Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 61:1 Jesus reads from the scroll in Nazareth and includes the phrase "recovering of sight to the blind" a phrase found in the Septuagint but not in the Hebrew, which instead reads "the opening of prison to them that are bound."
    3. Luke 4:18 / Isaiah 58:6 Also in the Nazareth reading, Jesus includes "to set at liberty those that are oppressed (or bruised)" a phrase found in the LXX, while the Hebrew reads "to let the oppressed go free."
    4. John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24 Jesus says, "He gave them 'bread' out of heaven to eat" following the LXX, while the Hebrew reads "food" or "grain" from heaven.
    5. John 12:40 / Isaiah 6:10 John 12:40 reflects Isaiah 6:10 in the LXX form: "lest they should see with eyes…turn for me to heal them."
    6. John 10:22 / 1 & 2 Maccabees In John 10:22, Christ the Lord mentioned the Feast of Dedication this feast was not mentioned in the protocanon while it was proved in the Book of Maccabees (a deuterocanonical book in the LXX) that Judas Maccabeus was the first to initiate this feast when he purified the temple.

    Matthew The Evangelist

    7. Matthew 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14 Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14 from the LXX: "behold, a 'virgin' shall conceive." The Hebrew reads "a 'young woman' shall conceive." This is enormously significant the LXX rendering of parthenos (virgin) is the very text that supports the doctrine of the Virgin Birth as Matthew presents it.
    8. Matthew 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3 The evangelists quote Isaiah 40:3 from the LXX: "make 'His paths straight'" whereas the Hebrew reads "make 'level in the desert a highway.'"
    9. Matthew 9:13; 12:7 / Hosea 6:6 Jesus quotes Hosea 6:6 as "I desire 'mercy' and not sacrifice" the LXX wording. The Hebrew reads "I desire 'goodness' and not sacrifice."
    10. Matthew 12:21 / Isaiah 42:4 Matthew quotes Isaiah 42:4 from the LXX: "in His name will the Gentiles hope (or trust)." The Hebrew reads "the isles shall wait for his law."
    11. Matthew 6:7 / Sirach 7:14 Matthew 6:7 reflects Sirach 7:14 from the LXX about prattling on in the assembly like the Gentiles do. Sirach is a deuterocanonical book, found only in the Septuagint.

    Luke The Evangelist & Acts
    12.

    Luke 3:56 / Isaiah 40:45 Luke 3:56 quotes Isaiah 40:45 with the phrases "crooked be made straight, rough ways smooth, shall see salvation" phrases found in the LXX, while the Hebrew omits them.
    13. Luke 6:31 / Tobit 4:15 Luke 6:31, which contains the Golden Rule, is absent from the Hebrew texts but is found in Tobit 4:15, a deuterocanonical book in the LXX.
    14. Luke 14:13 / Tobit 4:7 Luke 14:13 "But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you" echoes the LXX text of Tobit 4:7.
    15. Acts (Peter's and Paul's Speeches) The text used by Luke in his many quotations from the Old Testament throughout the speeches by Peter and Paul in Acts is basically the text of the LXX.

    John The Apostle

    16. John 12:38 / Isaiah 53:1 John 12:38 quotes Isaiah 53:1 from the LXX: "who has believed our 'report?'" The Hebrew reads "who has believed our 'message?'"

    The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit

    17. Isaiah 11:2 Isaiah 11:2 describes the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the seventh gift "piety" is only found in the Septuagint. The Hebrew text lists only six. The Church's tradition of seven gifts is rooted in the LXX rendering.

    Protestant authors Archer and Chirichigno list 340 places where the New Testament cites the Septuagint but only 33 places where it cites from the Masoretic Text rather than the Septuagint.

    The Septuagint is the oldest translation of the Old Testament in existence, was widely used by the apostles and all Jews at the time of Christ, and included the so-called "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical" books.
    Faithful Ag
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    Excellent post. I've always thought this was an interesting connection to the Deuterocanonical books as well…

    Quote:

    Matthew 27:39-43
    And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads. 40 and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." 41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "

    Wisdom 2:17-22
    "Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries."


     
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