I wish the Catholic Church still had the inquisition

3,383 Views | 75 Replies | Last: 17 days ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
So that people like this, the so-called Catholic governor of Massachusetts, could be put to the question.

"Vengeance is mine" says the Lord, but my word what evil. The celebrating, the smiling, the applause. It puts hate in your heart

10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Sounds like she is/was cozy with the Pope? How does this even happen?

"As a Catholic, I think about what we were taught about making sure that we look after those around us that we pay particular attention to those who are the most vulnerable among us…"

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/massachusetts-playbook/2024/05/16/when-healey-met-the-pope-00158298
747Ag
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Sounds like she is/was cozy with the Pope? How does this even happen?

"As a Catholic, I think about what we were taught about making sure that we look after those around us that we pay particular attention to those who are the most vulnerable among us…"

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/massachusetts-playbook/2024/05/16/when-healey-met-the-pope-00158298


Sin. And sin makes you stupid.
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

Sounds like she is/was cozy with the Pope? How does this even happen?

"As a Catholic, I think about what we were taught about making sure that we look after those around us that we pay particular attention to those who are the most vulnerable among us…"

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/massachusetts-playbook/2024/05/16/when-healey-met-the-pope-00158298



There is a strain among modern left wing Catholics to treat the church like a woke version of the Red Cross. Everything is the environment, immigration, accompaniment of the lgbtq crowd (of which this lady is a member) and throwing off the albatross of the old patriarchal institutional Church.

They believe in the idea of the "seamless cloth" where you can't differentiate between highway littering and killing a 9 month old baby the moment before she exits the womb.

They're Satanic
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Instead of your desire for the inquisition, why wouldn't the Pope simply rebuke her? Seems less invasive amd likely more impactful. Instead she is blessed with a rosary gift?
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

Instead of your desire for the inquisition, why wouldn't the Pope simply rebuke her? Seems less invasive amd likely more impactful. Instead she is blessed with a rosary gift?


Pretty much everyone who meets the Pope gets a small keepsake. However Pope Francis (rest in peace) did not make a habit of sternly correcting politicians the way Pope St John Paul II did.

The official story is that the Catholic Church tries to stay out of politics, and speaks about issues. Apparently the issues they speak most clearly and pointedly about are immigration right now, which sucks.
The Marksman
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Excommunication should be very frequent for "Catholics" like this
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Demonic.

Sacrificing children to Molech and Baal!

Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Demonic.

Sacrificing children to Molech and Baal!




We hung Nazis for less than this
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Instead of your desire for the inquisition, why wouldn't the Pope simply rebuke her? Seems less invasive amd likely more impactful. Instead she is blessed with a rosary gift?

The official story is that the Catholic Church tries to stay out of politics

That does not line up with your tradition's history
PabloSerna
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Not unrelated, the last person to be crowed Pope was Paul VI in 1963. He then laid the tiara on the altar and used a small skullcap called a zucchetto as the sign of his office as Bishop of Rome. The tiara was sold and proceeds donated to the poor.

This completed the shift away from coronation ceremonies, at least from a Catholic point, since King Charles was recently crowned at Westminster Abbey in 2023. Maybe at one time the need for divine succession was needed as a visible sign to the people. Now, clearly that is not the case in a republic.

I think that some people still look to their representatives as more than politicians, maybe some "divine right" to rule over the people. I would hope we can keep church and state separate and instead draw from our spiritual walk for the good of all people. (steps off soap box)

10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If there is example of mingling church and state and what not to do, the Roman/Western church from 300-1600 would be that example.
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

If there is example of mingling church and state and what not to do, the Roman/Western church from 300-1600 would be that example.


Ah yes, the bedrock of all of western civilization, the bastion of learning during the dark ages, the defense of Christendom against Muslims invaders, shall I go on?
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Whatever you say boss…guess we just deal with the evils that come with overall progress. Look the other way.

True progress is advancing the true gospel. I wonder why Pius 3 wanted to reform the church in 1503.
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

Whatever you say boss…guess we just deal with the evils that come with overall progress. Look the other way.

True progress is advancing the true gospel. I wonder why Pius 3 wanted to reform the church in 1503.


Like who? Calvin? Who burned his buddy Servetus at the stake? Zwingli? Who attacked Catholic cantons to spread Protestantism, and drowning those who opposed infant baptism?

Which true Gospel? You've lost sacramental baptism, the Eucharist, salvation through the church? All beliefs of the earliest reformed.


The Banned
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

Whatever you say boss…guess we just deal with the evils that come with overall progress. Look the other way.

True progress is advancing the true gospel. I wonder why Pius 3 wanted to reform the church in 1503.

That true gospel that Luther himself said the Church Fathers knew nothing about or ever wrote about?
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The gospel that was very much lost by the time Luther came around.

Why did Pius 3 want to reform the church?
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The church was a mess, with Popes participating in simony and many immoral practices, and the practice of indulgences was ballooning to incredible malpractice.
The Banned
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

The gospel that was very much lost by the time Luther came around.

Why did Pius 3 want to reform the church?

Luther literally says what he is teaching is found nowhere in the Church fathers. None of them. How can something be lost if it never existed? The idea that Luther brought back what the early guys once taught and became lost is a myth

Quote:

The Gospel carries the news that God for Christ's sake is merciful to the most unworthy sinners, if they will only believe that Christ by His death has delivered them from sin and everlasting death unto grace, forgiveness, and everlasting life. By keeping in mind the difference between the Law and the Gospel we let each perform its special task. Of this difference between the Law and the Gospel nothing can be discovered in the writings of the monks or scholastics, nor for that matter in the writings of the ancient fathers. Augustine understood the difference somewhat. Jerome and others knew nothing of it. The silence in the Church concerning the difference between the Law and the Gospel has resulted in untold harm. Unless a sharp distinction is maintained between the purpose and function of the Law and the Gospel, the Christian doctrine cannot be kept free from error.



Pius wanted reform because things needed to be reformed. Luther taught a brand new version of the gospel, as he admits. There is a big difference.

Here is a link if you'd like to read more.https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1549/1549-h/1549-h.htm
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
A lesson from history is instructive as to how precarious the Church's existence has been at times in history. And how holy men who loved Jesus and his Ekklesia dealt with much worse things than the corrupt, immoral behavior of Popes.

There would be no Gospel to proclaim but for men like St. Athanasius who stood athwart the tide and defended what we presume as orthodoxy today but was very nearly lost forever. So Jesus's promise in Matthew 16:18 stands kept to this day. All of this occurred WITHIN the structure and governance of the Ekklesia. No rebellion. No revolution. Gospel restored and preserved. Ekklesia intact. Unlike the so-called "Reformation," the Arian threat to the Gospel and the Ekklesia was defeated within the structure and governance of the Ekklesia. Instead of unraveling, it pulled together.

Let's look at just how existential Arianism was to the Gospel and the Ekklesia.

The Arian heresy stands as perhaps the greatest internal crisis the Church has ever faced, a battle not merely over governance or discipline, but over the very identity of Jesus Christ.

Arianism, named for the Catholic priest who was most closely associated with its ideas, affirmed a created, finite nature of Christ rather than equal divinity with God the Father. This error strikes at the very heart of salvation itself, for if Christ is not truly God, His sacrifice cannot redeem; if He is not truly man, there is no one to be redeemed through Him.

The Arian heresy was an existential threat to the faith of Christendom, spreading so widely in the eastern parts of the Empire that it endangered civil as well as religious peace.
Constantine, witnessing the extent to which the Arian controversy was troubling and endangering the unity of the Church, felt compelled to intervene in religious affairs and so in 325 he called for a council of the Church in the city of Nicea, where bishops from throughout the Empire would assemble to settle the issue.
It is important to appreciate that the controversy was not merely a theological skirmish among ivory-tower scholars. It was ripping entire communities, dioceses, and regions apart.

There were twenty Arian sympathizers among the more than 300 bishops present at the Council of Nicaea. The champion of orthodoxy was St. Athanasius of Alexandria, only a young deacon at the time, who stood nearly alone against the Arian tide.

To combat the Arian heresy, the Council formulated the Nicene Creed, which was required of all Christians to learn and memorize, to be recited at all Eucharistic services in perpetuity. It seemed like a decisive victory. It was not.

The formal condemnation at Nicaea did not extinguish Arianism. It detonated it.
Even though the Council of Nicaea strictly defined Christianity as a Trinitarian religion, the Arian heresy continued to grow and spread for decades. Having been defeated in the hierarchy of the Church, the Arians turned to civil politics as a means of gaining power over ancient Christianity.
After two years, Arius declared he had repented. He and the bishops excommunicated with him returned to the Church and then secretly expanded their influence, teaching their doctrine, and retaliating against opponents.

The political dimension cannot be overstated. Because of the influence of the Arian bishop Eusebius upon Constantine the heresy became so well established in the see of Constantinople that for fifty years, from the death of Constantine until the reign of Theodosius the Great, every bishop of Constantinople was Arian.

When a series of pro-Arian emperors arrived on the scene, Arianism spread like wildfire. After the murder of Constantius's brother Constans in 350, the empire was consolidated under the rule of Constantius and it appeared that the entire Christian world had fallen into Arian hands.
St. Jerome's famous cry from the period captures the devastation: "The whole world groaned, and marveled at finding itself Arian!" St. Athanasius was in exile off and on for thirty-one years.

Five times exiled by Arian emperors, yet never recanting, never compromising. History gave him the title Athanasius contra mundum (Athanasius against the world).

Upon his return to Alexandria from his last exile in 365, St. Athanasius received such popular acclaim that the Arian Emperor Valens, now ruling the Empire, feared an uprising should he banish him again. For the remaining eight years of his life, he was allowed to perform quietly the duties of his office.
His witness is a profound lesson: one man, grounded in truth, can outlast an empire's error.

Even as Arianism was being beaten back in the Roman Empire, it was spreading outward into the Germanic tribes. Some emperors favored the Arians for political reasons; others, faithful to the Church, opposed them, but even in exile the Arians continued to spread their heresy, and many of the barbarian tribes became converts to Arian Christianity.

The followers of Arianism spread Arian Christianity among the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths. This meant that as the Roman Empire collapsed and Germanic kingdoms rose across Europe, Arian kings ruled over Catholic populations, creating centuries of tension, persecution, and missionary effort.

The definitive imperial end of Arianism came with Emperor Theodosius, whose Edict of Thessalonica in 380 declared Nicene Christianity the official religion of the Empire. Arianism continued to be a recurring problem in the ancient Church for the following two centuries. It was not fully extinguished in the West until the conversion of the Visigoth king Reccared to Catholicism in 589.

Threat defeated. Ekklesia intact. Jesus's promise fulfilled.
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I appreciate the write up there and I am grateful for the men who stood firm in those days.

I would tend to think that while we may not be fighting Arianism like those early days, we are no doubt still fighting heretical views of who Jesus is to this day. Always will be.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

I appreciate the write up there and I am grateful for the men who stood firm in those days.

I would tend to think that while we may not be fighting Arianism like those early days, we are no doubt still fighting heretical views of who Jesus is to this day. Always will be.


No doubt Arianism rears its ugly head each time someone says something like "I like Jesus. He was a wise guy who taught some good things." Or when someone espouse what the Jehovah's Witnesses espouse.
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

The gospel that was very much lost by the time Luther came around.

Why did Pius 3 want to reform the church?


The church is always reforming. What do you think the councils were called for? I'm not sure what you're asking.
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.

The point of sharing the history of the Arian heresy is to show that as early as the 4th century the church was "losing its way" and going down rabbit trails and how the church self-corrected. The more subtle but larger point is that because Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against his Ekklesia, the Holy Spirit is not going to let the church go so far such that the gates of hell would prevail against it. It didn't in the 4th century, it didn't on multiple other times between Nicea and the 16th century, and it didn't in the 16th century.
Vox Clamantis
How long do you want to ignore this user?
10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed? The Holy Spirit has worked through the Church to root out heresy whenever it has taken root. This happened with the Arians, gnostics, albigensians, pelagianism (1000 years before the reformation).

You know about the council of Trent, no? I also have no clue why you keep harping on Pius III he was a sick man who wanted to do some reforms and died in less than a month.

The council of Trent is much more of a reformation than what Pius III had in mind.

This is the church cleaning itself. The Protestant mechanism is to form a new church. It has been done ad nauseum and it leads you to the ridiculous notion that "holy hand of risen Zion cowboy church of Smyrna, Georgia" is the church that Christ built; and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which has been having mass for 2000 years is an imposter.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

holy hand of risen Zion cowboy church of Smyrna, Georgia


I don't care who you are that's funny.
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed?

I am going to go with....Holy Scripture. Seems simple enough. Truly is amazing we cannot agree on that.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed?

I am going to go with....Holy Scripture. Seems simple enough. Truly is amazing we cannot agree on that.


Without justifying or excusing corruption or bad behavior, Holy Scripture does not interpret itself.
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed?

I am going to go with....Holy Scripture. Seems simple enough. Truly is amazing we cannot agree on that.


Without justifying or excusing corruption or bad behavior, Holy Scripture does not interpret itself.

So do your best to interpret it faithfully? Did the popes ever do that? College of cardinals? Bishops? Priests?

I am asking how did the Roman Church hold these immoral popes accountable whether it be church discipline or whatever terminology you want to use.

No one was like hey, maybe Alexander isn't the right guy for the job? He's sleeping around quite a bit.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed?

I am going to go with....Holy Scripture. Seems simple enough. Truly is amazing we cannot agree on that.


Without justifying or excusing corruption or bad behavior, Holy Scripture does not interpret itself.

So do your best to interpret it faithfully? Did the popes ever do that? College of cardinals? Bishops? Priests?

I am asking how did the Roman Church hold these immoral popes accountable whether it be church discipline or whatever terminology you want to use.

No one was like hey, maybe Alexander isn't the right guy for the job? He's sleeping around quite a bit.


So your point is that if the Church's internal controls and governance were more energetically and proactively enforced and that if Pope [insert name here] had been holier, sola fide would have remained an unknown concept in church history?

The Banned
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Vox Clamantis said:

10andBOUNCE said:

That is one way to put it. I did not have "The Roman/Western Catholic Church is always reforming" on my bingo card today.

What kind of checks and balances were in place that allowed some of the severe malpractice to ensue leading up to the 1500s? One of the things Pius wanted to do was institute a council to help with reforms. Seems redundant if it was already happening.



The Holy Spirit, can you tell me which other checks and balances other than the Holy Spirit are needed?

I am going to go with....Holy Scripture. Seems simple enough. Truly is amazing we cannot agree on that.


Without justifying or excusing corruption or bad behavior, Holy Scripture does not interpret itself.

So do your best to interpret it faithfully? Did the popes ever do that? College of cardinals? Bishops? Priests?

I am asking how did the Roman Church hold these immoral popes accountable whether it be church discipline or whatever terminology you want to use.

No one was like hey, maybe Alexander isn't the right guy for the job? He's sleeping around quite a bit.


So your point is that if the Church's internal controls and governance were more energetically and proactively enforced and that if Pope [insert name here] had been holier, sola fide would have remained an unknown concept in church history?



In addition to this, there is a concept of authority in which certain men can't be held accountable except by God. As father of your house, you aren't held accountable if you mistreat your wife or children by anyone other than God (provided your mistreatment isn't criminal and there is legal intervention)
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
My point is that there were no internal controls and the gospel was in many ways *******ized by the time of the reformations, first by Wycliffe and Hus, later by Luther and others.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
10andBOUNCE said:

My point is that there were no internal controls and the gospel was in many ways *******ized by the time of the reformations, first by Wycliffe and Hus, later by Luther and others.

There is an assumption in your point that I do not think is merited. I do not think the assumption that Luther ignited the reform that came from Trent is entirely accurate. There was an awareness of the need for change long before Luther and authentic renewal of the Church started long before he was born.

There were reform movements that predated Luther, led by figures/groups like Erasmus of Rotterdam, Cardinal Ximenez de Cisneros in Spain, and the Oratory of Divine Love in Italy. These figures/groups had identified clerical corruption, simony, absenteeism, and the sale of indulgences. Erasumus was a devout Catholic who published blistering critiques of clerical abuse years before Luther. He said something to the effect that Luther hatched the egg he (Erasmus) laid. There was also the emergence of new orders such as the Jesuits, and the Capuchins that were already in motion before Luther.

Having said that, to be honest about this, we must admit that while there was a groundswell for reform before Luther, the papacy was dilatory in responding to it and that definitely had consequences. And, as you pointed out, Pope Paul III appointed a commission to examine the state of the Church and the report from that commission was brutal - popes and cardinals had become too worldly; bribery to gain church office was widespread; monasteries had lost their discipline; and the selling of indulgences was widely abused.

Then came Trent, which had two primary missions: doctrinal clarity and institutional reform.
10andBOUNCE
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That is a fair response...I am still working my way up through Trent, so I may reach back out when I get there.
Last Page
Page 1 of 3
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.