Musical "did Mary have other kids"
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Last: 9 days ago by 747Ag
"So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For not even his brothers believed in him."
John 7:3, 5 ESV
"And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
Matthew 1:24-25 NASB1995
"But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother."
Galatians 1:19 NASB1995
Why do Catholics want to die on this hill? Because they want to venerate someone other than Jesus himself.
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
1 Timothy 2:5 NASB1995
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.""
Acts 4:12 NASB1995
John 7:3, 5 ESV
"And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
Matthew 1:24-25 NASB1995
"But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother."
Galatians 1:19 NASB1995
Why do Catholics want to die on this hill? Because they want to venerate someone other than Jesus himself.
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"
1 Timothy 2:5 NASB1995
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.""
Acts 4:12 NASB1995
Acts 2:38
Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
Thaddeus73 said:
Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Acts 2:38
Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
It says adelphos in the original Greek, which can also mean cousins...
Since it's a dogma of the faith, and Mary said to Gabriel, "How can this be since I DO NOT know man, and since Numbers 30 gives us how a virgin can remain a virgin after marriage, and since even Luther believed in Mary's perpetual virginity, then so will I...
Since it's a dogma of the faith, and Mary said to Gabriel, "How can this be since I DO NOT know man, and since Numbers 30 gives us how a virgin can remain a virgin after marriage, and since even Luther believed in Mary's perpetual virginity, then so will I...
Did Jesus not have brothers?
There is only one narrative: The ETs Farsight is in contact with are the good guys. Not so regarding the faction of et OUR military is in bed with.
Arachnologistguy said:
Did Jesus not have brothers?
Depends who you ask…
Arachnologistguy said:
Did Jesus not have brothers?
No. Jerome was bewildered by the fact anyone would even claim such a thing that he thought using his time to defend Mary's perpetual virginity was a waste. He eventually did it because he felt it was such a massive slander against Mary, as well as a heresy, but it was crazy to even think it needed to be defended.
Jerome (who again, knew Greek better than any human alive today) said the "brothers" were cousins. The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today. But back then he said it as if it was just common knowledge. Other Church fathers have said that they were his step brothers from Joseph's prior marriage. Either way, no one thought they were natural siblings from Joseph and Mary.
I accept it as a matter of Church teaching, but my human reasoning has never understood how a woman who knowingly just gave birth to God Himself (in the Second Person of the Trinity) would then have "regular" kids. Can you imagine being God's little brother or sister? Can you imagine birthing God and later thinking "let's have a kid of our own that will forever live in His shadow"? Can you imagine being Joseph and witnessing THE miracle of all miracles happen inside of your wife's womb and then see Mary as wife in that way? To me, it doesn't make sense in any way other than "not having sex is hard".
The appeal here doesn't appear very strong given the time lapse. It's like me writing confidently about George Washington today in apparent opposition to an older source. The wording itself doesn't lend strongly to the use of brothers the way Christians and black people use it, and James particularly gets described this way multiple times.
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
Let's ask St. Jerome, who was an expert Hebrew and Greek and Latin scholar in the 4th Century, who gave us the Vulgate version of the bible, from Bethlehem....
Jerome's View on the Brothers of Jesus
In the 4th century, Saint Jerome addressed the question of whether Jesus had biological brothers in his apologetic work Adversus Helvidium (Against Helvidius). Jerome was responding to Helvidius, who argued that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that she and Joseph had sexual relations after Jesus' birth, producing the "brothers" mentioned in the Gospels Wikipedia.
Jerome's Position
Jerome rejected Helvidius's view and affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary. He argued that:
Jerome noted that Hebrew and Aramaic had no specific word for "cousin", so relatives were often referred to as "brothers" or "sons of an uncle" (bar dad). The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) and New Testament authors used adelphos in this wider sense Catholic Answers. This meant that the Gospel references to "brothers" could apply to cousins without contradicting the doctrine of Mary's virginity.
Summary
Jerome's defense was theological and exegetical:
Jerome's View on the Brothers of Jesus
In the 4th century, Saint Jerome addressed the question of whether Jesus had biological brothers in his apologetic work Adversus Helvidium (Against Helvidius). Jerome was responding to Helvidius, who argued that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and that she and Joseph had sexual relations after Jesus' birth, producing the "brothers" mentioned in the Gospels Wikipedia.
Jerome's Position
Jerome rejected Helvidius's view and affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary. He argued that:
- Joseph was not Mary's husband in the marital sense but her guardian (patratus), a role that did not imply sexual union Wikipedia.
- The "brothers" of Jesus were not Joseph's children from a previous marriage (as some, like Origen and Eusebius, suggested) but cousins (anepsios), reflecting the Aramaic and Hebrew custom of calling cousins "brothers" Wikipedia+1.
- The Greek term adelphos (brother) had a broad meaning in the New Testament, often including cousins, kinsmen, or other relatives, not just blood siblings Catholic Answers.
Jerome noted that Hebrew and Aramaic had no specific word for "cousin", so relatives were often referred to as "brothers" or "sons of an uncle" (bar dad). The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) and New Testament authors used adelphos in this wider sense Catholic Answers. This meant that the Gospel references to "brothers" could apply to cousins without contradicting the doctrine of Mary's virginity.
Summary
Jerome's defense was theological and exegetical:
- He preserved the perpetual virginity of Mary as a central Christian virtue.
- He interpreted the Gospel "brothers" as cousins, consistent with Jewish linguistic practice and the broader meaning of adelphos.
- He contrasted this with Helvidius's claim that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations after Jesus' birth, which Jerome saw as undermining Mary's holiness Wikipedia+1.
Aggrad08 said:
The appeal here doesn't appear very strong given the time lapse. It's like me writing confidently about George Washington today in apparent opposition to an older source. The wording itself doesn't lend strongly to the use of brothers the way Christians and black people use it, and James particularly gets described this way multiple times.
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
The time lapse actually cuts against the idea they were Mary's children. When Jerome addresses it, he says that no one up to that point in Christianity had ever believed such a thing. It's not until 300 years later that the though pops up and Jerome thinks it's so dumb it's hardly worth his time to deal with it, if it weren't for the fact that it was starting to spread.
And I meant Hebrew, not Greek. I mistyped. Sorry about that.
The Banned said:Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior. And if you're going to go to perpetual, what about Mary's mother? Her grandmother? Her great grandmother? Where does it end?
Acts 2:38
Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
on Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior. And if you're going to go to perpetual, what about Mary's mother? Her grandmother? Her great grandmother? Where does it end?
Lol. I don't know you, but you come across as a brand new convert/revert who thinks he has everything figured out because he binged youtube videos. You have displayed a incredibly shallow understanding of multiple topics the last couple days. You're in way over your head, and I pray that changes for you. Good luck on your faith journey.
The Banned said:Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
on Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior. And if you're going to go to perpetual, what about Mary's mother? Her grandmother? Her great grandmother? Where does it end?
Lol. I don't know you, but you come across as a brand new convert/revert who thinks he has everything figured out because he binged youtube videos. You have displayed a incredibly shallow understanding of multiple topics the last couple days. You're in way over your head, and I pray that changes for you. Good luck on your faith journey.
That's not how I mean to come across at all. I very rarely watch YouTube, I simply read the Bible. I read it every year as I have for 20 years. I read different versions, different commentaries, different historical references, context, and apply what I've learned. I've talked with countless Catholics over the years, lovely people. But out of all the ones I talked with I only knew one who truly knew her Bible well. They were all very well-versed on the catechism and receive homilies well, but were not well-versed on scripture. I sincerely hope that you delve into the scriptures daily. Don't trust any man. Men are fallible, including myself, trust God.
And I don't mean to correct you again, but it's not a faith journey. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ, he holds me in his hand, and he promised me eternity. Just like anybody else who's born again in him.
Acts 2:38
The Banned said:Aggrad08 said:
The appeal here doesn't appear very strong given the time lapse. It's like me writing confidently about George Washington today in apparent opposition to an older source. The wording itself doesn't lend strongly to the use of brothers the way Christians and black people use it, and James particularly gets described this way multiple times.
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
The time lapse actually cuts against the idea they were Mary's children. When Jerome addresses it, he says that no one up to that point in Christianity had ever believed such a thing. It's not until 300 years later that the though pops up and Jerome thinks it's so dumb it's hardly worth his time to deal with it, if it weren't for the fact that it was starting to spread.
And I meant Hebrew, not Greek. I mistyped. Sorry about that.
But the texts are largely Greek in origin not Hebrew. It makes for a peculiar argument, that the authors knew so much about Jesus as to write a gospel that quotes him regularly, yet simultaneously accidentally translated the wrong word due to limitations of Hebrew. Further to use language that would could imply things contrary to the perpetual virginity of Mary without clarification. But along those same lines the gospels imply almost none of the eventual Catholic beliefs about Mary which prove to be rather glaring omissions in books that aren't exactly parsimonious with their telling.
Aggrad08 said:The Banned said:Aggrad08 said:
The appeal here doesn't appear very strong given the time lapse. It's like me writing confidently about George Washington today in apparent opposition to an older source. The wording itself doesn't lend strongly to the use of brothers the way Christians and black people use it, and James particularly gets described this way multiple times.
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
The time lapse actually cuts against the idea they were Mary's children. When Jerome addresses it, he says that no one up to that point in Christianity had ever believed such a thing. It's not until 300 years later that the though pops up and Jerome thinks it's so dumb it's hardly worth his time to deal with it, if it weren't for the fact that it was starting to spread.
And I meant Hebrew, not Greek. I mistyped. Sorry about that.
But the texts are largely Greek in origin not Hebrew. It makes for a peculiar argument, that the authors knew so much about Jesus as to write a gospel that quotes him regularly, yet simultaneously accidentally translated the wrong word due to limitations of Hebrew. Further to use language that would could imply things contrary to the perpetual virginity of Mary without clarification. But along those same lines the gospels imply almost none of the eventual Catholic beliefs about Mary which prove to be rather glaring omissions in books that aren't exactly parsimonious with their telling.
Who said they mistranslated? They were Aramaic speakers (except for maybe Luke) writing in Greek. They used the word "brother" because that is the word they used. Like Abraham calling Lot his brother when he very clearly wasn't. Yes, there was a Greek word for cousin, and Paul chose to use it in his letter to the Colossians. But the fact that the other writers used brother in a Hebrew way isn't shocking. Other fathers posited they were half brothers from Joseph's previous marriage. Either way, the early Church didn't think they were biological siblings.
Also, saying something is omitted from the bible is completely misunderstanding the point of the books themselves. 4 of them were written to be biographies of Jesus. They were not meant to be play by plays of Mary's life. Every other book outside of Revelation was exhorting local churches to keep to the faith they had previously been taught and/or get them back in line when there are rifts in the congregation. Not a single book attempts to be a "here is everything single we teach as Christians" type of text. Using it that way is a very modern invention among evangelicals.
Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
on Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior. And if you're going to go to perpetual, what about Mary's mother? Her grandmother? Her great grandmother? Where does it end?
Lol. I don't know you, but you come across as a brand new convert/revert who thinks he has everything figured out because he binged youtube videos. You have displayed a incredibly shallow understanding of multiple topics the last couple days. You're in way over your head, and I pray that changes for you. Good luck on your faith journey.
That's not how I mean to come across at all. I very rarely watch YouTube, I simply read the Bible. I read it every year as I have for 20 years. I read different versions, different commentaries, different historical references, context, and apply what I've learned. I've talked with countless Catholics over the years, lovely people. But out of all the ones I talked with I only knew one who truly knew her Bible well. They were all very well-versed on the catechism and receive homilies well, but were not well-versed on scripture. I sincerely hope that you delve into the scriptures daily. Don't trust any man. Men are fallible, including myself, trust God.
And I don't mean to correct you again, but it's not a faith journey. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ, he holds me in his hand, and he promised me eternity. Just like anybody else who's born again in him.
Should I trust you that it's not a faith journey when you're a fallible man? Should I trust myself? I think I'm trusting in God when I experience my faith as a journey, and read in the bible where we are continually called to grow in our faith and "finish the race", but maybe I'm deluding myself? Maybe you're deluding yourself? Who knows?
Aggrad08 said:The Banned said:Aggrad08 said:
The appeal here doesn't appear very strong given the time lapse. It's like me writing confidently about George Washington today in apparent opposition to an older source. The wording itself doesn't lend strongly to the use of brothers the way Christians and black people use it, and James particularly gets described this way multiple times.
" The Greek language did not have a way to distinguish between the two, which seems weird today"
But Greek actually has a specific word for cousin: anepsios. It's used in Colossians 4:10
The time lapse actually cuts against the idea they were Mary's children. When Jerome addresses it, he says that no one up to that point in Christianity had ever believed such a thing. It's not until 300 years later that the though pops up and Jerome thinks it's so dumb it's hardly worth his time to deal with it, if it weren't for the fact that it was starting to spread.
And I meant Hebrew, not Greek. I mistyped. Sorry about that.
But the texts are largely Greek in origin not Hebrew. It makes for a peculiar argument, that the authors knew so much about Jesus as to write a gospel that quotes him regularly, yet simultaneously accidentally translated the wrong word due to limitations of Hebrew. Further to use language that would could imply things contrary to the perpetual virginity of Mary without clarification. But along those same lines the gospels imply almost none of the eventual Catholic beliefs about Mary which prove to be rather glaring omissions in books that aren't exactly parsimonious with their telling.
The Septuagent translators often used adelphoi, not anepsios, for cousin. Or other male relatives who were not brothers. Not a mistranslation to them.
Quote:
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior.
Asking someone for their intercession is not worship, except in the protestant world. I hope you never worship your pastor by asking him to pray for you. The bible says that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, and that Jesus is the fruit of Mary's womb. So if Jesus is GOOD fruit, then Mary, the tree from which he was bora cannot be bad. Otherwise, a bad tree did bear good fruit.
And besides that, All mothers carry cells of their child in them, so we now for a fact that Mary is carrying cells of the pure and holy Jesus in her, something no one else ever has done.
The Banned said:Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:The Banned said:Pierow said:Thaddeus73 said:
on Were Paul and Timothy blood brothers?
2 Corinthians 1:1
Salutation
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother. To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
All Christians are spiritual brothers. But we both know that's not what they are talking about with James or the brothers who didn't believe in him. Again, you can die on that hill if you want to.
Avg protestant: 'Mary clearly had more kids. It's says "brothers" right there in the english
St. Jerome, who knew Greek better than any living human being, translated the entire bible and actually knew what it meant: 'Why are y'all making me write a treatise on Mary's perpetual virginity? Everyone knows she didn't have any more kids. The idea she had any more kids is stupid on it's face"
You want to worship Mary. You say you don't, but you do. You pray to her, ask for intercession, that's Jesus's position ONLY. It's idolatry, and you wish to continue to idolize. She was a sinner, just like everyone else who has ever lived, except for Jesus. She even refers to Jesus as her savior. And if you're going to go to perpetual, what about Mary's mother? Her grandmother? Her great grandmother? Where does it end?
Lol. I don't know you, but you come across as a brand new convert/revert who thinks he has everything figured out because he binged youtube videos. You have displayed a incredibly shallow understanding of multiple topics the last couple days. You're in way over your head, and I pray that changes for you. Good luck on your faith journey.
That's not how I mean to come across at all. I very rarely watch YouTube, I simply read the Bible. I read it every year as I have for 20 years. I read different versions, different commentaries, different historical references, context, and apply what I've learned. I've talked with countless Catholics over the years, lovely people. But out of all the ones I talked with I only knew one who truly knew her Bible well. They were all very well-versed on the catechism and receive homilies well, but were not well-versed on scripture. I sincerely hope that you delve into the scriptures daily. Don't trust any man. Men are fallible, including myself, trust God.
And I don't mean to correct you again, but it's not a faith journey. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ, he holds me in his hand, and he promised me eternity. Just like anybody else who's born again in him.
Should I trust you that it's not a faith journey when you're a fallible man? Should I trust myself? I think I'm trusting in God when I experience my faith as a journey, and read in the bible where we are continually called to grow in our faith and "finish the race", but maybe I'm deluding myself? Maybe you're deluding yourself? Who knows?
If you are born again, you can call it whatever you like. That's the only thing that matters.
Acts 2:38
But how can I trust if I'm born again or not? I'm fallible, so maybe I'm wrong... God didn't tell me in person that I'm saved. He didn't tell me the scriptures are inerrant. Heck, He didn't tell me which books were the correct scriptures. Seems like I'm doing a whole bunch of trusting in men no matter what I do...
The Banned said:
But how can I trust if I'm born again or not? I'm fallible, so maybe I'm wrong... God didn't tell me in person that I'm saved. He didn't tell me the scriptures are inerrant. Heck, He didn't tell me which books were the correct scriptures. Seems like I'm doing a whole bunch of trusting in men no matter what I do...
As for me, and speaking with many other Christians, your attitude towards things of God changes. You still sin, but you hate it. You devour the Bible. You think about Jesus all the time. It's the little things. Unsaved people don't care about those things.
Acts 2:38
Pierow said:The Banned said:
But how can I trust if I'm born again or not? I'm fallible, so maybe I'm wrong... God didn't tell me in person that I'm saved. He didn't tell me the scriptures are inerrant. Heck, He didn't tell me which books were the correct scriptures. Seems like I'm doing a whole bunch of trusting in men no matter what I do...
As for me, and speaking with many other Christians, your attitude towards things of God changes. You still sin, but you hate it. You devour the Bible. You think about Jesus all the time. It's the little things. Unsaved people don't care about those things.
You know this is the same thing a Mormon would tell me, right? If you read the BoM, you will feel this burning inside of you and you will KNOW that it is true, and you'll give your life to God. Should I let their feelings based evidence sway me as well?
Howdy, it is me! said:Arachnologistguy said:
Did Jesus not have brothers?
Depends who you ask…
What does the owners manual say?
There is only one narrative: The ETs Farsight is in contact with are the good guys. Not so regarding the faction of et OUR military is in bed with.
The Banned said:Pierow said:The Banned said:
But how can I trust if I'm born again or not? I'm fallible, so maybe I'm wrong... God didn't tell me in person that I'm saved. He didn't tell me the scriptures are inerrant. Heck, He didn't tell me which books were the correct scriptures. Seems like I'm doing a whole bunch of trusting in men no matter what I do...
As for me, and speaking with many other Christians, your attitude towards things of God changes. You still sin, but you hate it. You devour the Bible. You think about Jesus all the time. It's the little things. Unsaved people don't care about those things.
You know this is the same thing a Mormon would tell me, right? If you read the BoM, you will feel this burning inside of you and you will KNOW that it is true, and you'll give your life to God. Should I let their feelings based evidence sway me as well?
That's not true. That is a very much works righteous religion. They work, and work, and work. Christians do not. Many who have left the Mormon religion tell the same tail. They were burnt out, trying to do good.
Acts 2:38
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
T dizl televizl said:
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
It's just common sense. I don't understand it either. I do know that when the Catholic Church wanted to bring about conversion to certain peoples that they encountered who worshiped female gods. All they had to do was say "we have a female you can worship as well". They will swear up and down that they don't worship Mary. But they pray to her, ask for her intervention, and consider her basically a co-redemptor. If that's not worship, I don't know what it is.
Acts 2:38
Quote:
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
Because it's veritas...Numbers 30 says if the husband doesn't object to his wife's vows at the time of marriage, then the vow stands. Mary says that she does not know man at the Annunciation. Both scriptures point to her perpetual virginity.
And then there is the theology of the body analogy that says that only the high priest could enter the holy of holies...That would be Jesus the eternal high priest entering the tabernacle, or the dwelling place of God, aka the womb of Mary. No one else ever entered there, even Joseph.
Pierow said:
That's not true. That is a very much works righteous religion. They work, and work, and work. Christians do not. Many who have left the Mormon religion tell the same tail. They were burnt out, trying to do good.
You don't understand. I'll try again:
You. I know I am saved because I feel different. I feel like reading the bible and thinking about Jesus all the time
Mormon: I work on my salvation because I feel like the BoM is the truth. I do the things the faith tells me to do because I feel it.
You arrive at opposite conclusions but both offer the same evidence of feelings, or what you called an "attitude change". So whose attitude change/feelings should I trust?
Quote:
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
It was always a given. It was novel teaching that Mary had other kids that created the argument where previously there was none. Blame those guys
Quote:
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
And herein lies the problem. It's so hard for some people, particularly people in the modern West, to wrap their heads around the idea that there are super holy people who do this. Just because the average person can't control their desires perfectly (myself included) doesn't mean that no one else can. I find it mind blowing that a the greatest miracle of all time, one that involved you giving BIRTH TO GOD, wouldn't change priorities of the people involved in the miracle.
I wish it wasn't such a point of disagreement. It would be nice if we'd all just get on board with what the Church taught historically.
Pierow said:T dizl televizl said:
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
It's just common sense. I don't understand it either. I do know that when the Catholic Church wanted to bring about conversion to certain peoples that they encountered who worshiped female gods. All they had to do was say "we have a female you can worship as well". They will swear up and down that they don't worship Mary. But they pray to her, ask for her intervention, and consider her basically a co-redemptor. If that's not worship, I don't know what it is.
This is impressive. Pietrow knows what 1.5 BILLION Christians really think and feel. They just loooooove worshipping Mary and lie about it to trick others. Doesn't need to bother asking questions or trying to understand or even defining terms like "worship" and "prayer". He knows it all already
T dizl televizl said:
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
Let's start from another direction since we are reverting to sex. How old do you believe Joseph and Mary were?
Do you believe that Mary was pregnant during the life of Jesus?
The answer to these two would help paint the picture
T dizl televizl said:
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
1. No need to focus, yet here you are.
2. Natural for two humans to have sex at "some point" while they were married? You mean the wedding night? Scripture is explicit that this did not happen with Mary and Joseph. That's clue number 1 that this was not an ordinary marriage. Pointing to what other married couples do doesn't prove anything.
3. Catholics aren't the only ones who argue this. All Protestant reformers believed this. And not only the reformers, but the scholastics too. Please trace the history from your belief to them to find out when and why it changed.
The Banned said:Pierow said:T dizl televizl said:
I grew up Protestant and married a catholic.
I can't figure out why Catholics want to argue so much that Mary was a virgin for her entire life and didn't have other kids.
Seems like the natural state of things that Joseph would want to have some sex. Especially after sticking with Mary after the whole her getting pregnant without them having sex.
If Mary was a virgin her whole life great. I just don't see the need to focus on that at all.
But it does seem a lot more natural for these two humans to have had sex at some point while they were married kind of like all (most) humans do.
It's just common sense. I don't understand it either. I do know that when the Catholic Church wanted to bring about conversion to certain peoples that they encountered who worshiped female gods. All they had to do was say "we have a female you can worship as well". They will swear up and down that they don't worship Mary. But they pray to her, ask for her intervention, and consider her basically a co-redemptrix. If that's not worship, I don't know what it is.
This is impressive. Pietrow knows what 1.5 BILLION Christians really think and feel. They just loooooove worshipping Mary and lie about it to trick others. Doesn't need to bother asking questions or trying to understand or even defining terms like "worship" and "prayer". He knows it all already.
Knowing someone's interior disposition is a super power. Multiplying that by 1.5E9... giga-super-power.
In all seriousness, once again we see that apostolic Christians (Catholics & Orthodox) speak a very different dialect of Christianese than the vast majority protestant/evangelical Christians despite using the same words. The difference being the presuppositions and connotations that accompany said vocabulary. The term "worship" is a prime example.
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