"They are poor because they have never evolved past tribal culture and politics resulting in unstable economic structures marred by corruption."

For you, that probably works.

If what I wrote offended- mea culpa.

Your statement reads like a summary judgement that removes any involvement of more powerful nations, in this case Spain, that have a history of destroying cultures and manipulating politics to their advantage. So, I read your statement and figured you were content to narrow the focus in order to justify what I believe is flat out evil (although Spain is not doing that, shooting random immigrants).

If i had to write it over- I would have written more of a context.

"You break it, you own it." - General Colin Powell (c.2002, talking about invading Iraq)

PabloSerna said:

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"It is virtue signaling because you don't live in Spain, you have no skin in the game, no downside risk."

Well, I'm not a woman in a crisis pregnancy miles away, however, I know that abortion is not the will of God and therefore evil. I guess that is virtue signaling according to your logic?

It's not and neither is my understanding that random killing of immigrants is by God's definition evil. That is the inherent human dignity aspect.

Again, what you are arguing is black and white. The solution is much more grey, because of the history, because of the politics, and more. I have already stated that they (all countries affected) need to work together. It appears that cooler heads prevailed and that is starting to happen. Time will tell.

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It's not the will of God for immigrants to impose themselves on others and take from their labors, but you seem to overlook such things. Knowing something is wrong isn't the issue; it's your strawman and moralizing that's the problem. You have a conscience of convenience where religion is downstream of politics, and ignore higher responsibilities of people for your preferred values. Stop with the straw men. Grey solutions require guests of hospitality to recognize they owe a debt too, and move on instead of staying.

The poor are there for us who have to share, but find any excuse not to. That's the common theme in many of the posts on here, instead of recognizing their inherent human dignity and trying to work things out for the good on both sides. To me this is what Christ was talking about when he said some have hardened hearts.

ETA: Some more context- It sounds like, maybe not, you are equating abortion with illegal immigration. But I say, the poor are here for some of us who have much, but choose not to share. This aligns with stewardship of goods. That some feel compelled to leave their homeland for a better life for their family and do so illegally does not equate with the killing of an unborn child. The two are tragic, but one is clearly evil. And i am defining evil as the privation of good. We could go down the rabbit hole on each- but i would like to hear how they are equal first.

PabloSerna said:

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If what I wrote offended- mea culpa.

Your statement reads like a summary judgement that removes any involvement of more powerful nations, in this case Spain, that have a history of destroying cultures and manipulating politics to their advantage. So, I read your statement and figured you were content to narrow the focus in order to justify what I believe is flat out evil (although Spain is not doing that, shooting random immigrants).

If i had to write it over- I would have written more of a context.
400s
"You break it, you own it." - General Colin Powell (c.2002, talking about invading Iraq)

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I was probably being overly sensitive. I accept your apology. Please accept mine.

Why does your history start and end at what Spain did? What happened to the tribes that occupied the Iberian peninsula and how and why did those tribes unite to form what is now Spain? The North African Berber, Muslims, invaded and conquered much of the area in the 700s and "colonized" it for 700 years (~1400s). The only reason Spain exists was because of that occupation and the trauma that the Christians in the area endured. Shouldn't the Arab nations be required to pay reparations to Spaniards that were enslaved? Why is it Spain that "broke it" when "Spain" is a result of being broken? It would seem to me anything Spain did to North Africa after it's people united was a justified response for centuries of being brutalized.

The reality is that generational guilt is a farce. I am not responsible for my forefathers' actions anymore then another being responsible for theirs. If I'm wrong about that, let me know because my family tree reaches back to El Cid. I most definitely have relatives with were enslaved and executed by Muslims. I also most certainly have relatives who participated and/or suffered under the inquisition. However, the "he started it" game is as equally unsolvable in my house as it is the world.

So then, we only have the reality of today with which to work. As individuals (& Catholics), we have a duty to adhere the principle of Catholic Social teachings. I don't disagree with your empathy at the individual level. However, taxes paid to our government should be used to maintain borders and the citizens within those boundaries. Furthermore, recall that even Christ placed "borders" on who was to receive our empathy:

"5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, "Do not go on a road [f]to Gentiles, and do not enter a city of Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, [g]preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven has come near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with leprosy, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. 9 Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, 10 or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is deserving of his [j]support. 11 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 If the house is worthy, see that your blessing of peace comes upon it. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 And whoever does not receive you nor listen to your words, as you leave that house or city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment, than for that city" -Mat 10:5-15

So are the Moroccan men going to Ceuta to receive the Word? For that matter, are Muslim men going to Europe to receive the Word? It not, send them back to their city to await the Judgement.

PabloSerna said:

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The poor are there for us who have to share, but find any excuse not to. That's the common theme in many of the posts on here, instead of recognizing their inherent human dignity and trying to work things out for the good on both sides. To me this is what Christ was talking about when he said some have hardened hearts.

ETA: Some more context- It sounds like, maybe not, you are equating abortion with illegal immigration. But I say, the poor are here for some of us who have much, but choose not to share. This aligns with stewardship of goods. That some feel compelled to leave their homeland for a better life for their family and do so illegally does not equate with the killing of an unborn child. The two are tragic, but one is clearly evil. And i am defining evil as the privation of good. We could go down the rabbit hole on each- but i would like to hear how they are equal first.

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That was the point of my post that you ignored for abortion.

Me: Look at all these poor they have and can't help. Start at home.
You: But what about these other poor hundreds of miles away? Random killing isn't good.
Me: …

PabloSerna said:

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"It is virtue signaling because you don't live in Spain, you have no skin in the game, no downside risk."

Well, I'm not a woman in a crisis pregnancy miles away, however, I know that abortion is not the will of God and therefore evil. I guess that is virtue signaling according to your logic?

It's not and neither is my understanding that random killing of immigrants is by God's definition evil. That is the inherent human dignity aspect.

Again, what you are arguing is black and white. The solution is much more grey, because of the history, because of the politics, and more. I have already stated that they (all countries affected) need to work together. It appears that cooler heads prevailed and that is starting to happen. Time will tell.

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Random killing of immigrants is definitely evil, I don't think anyone has any argument there.

However I think if you did a study on what is being proposed you'd find that the immigrants killed would be tightly clustered amongst the "charging in a horde across the border" cohort and not with the "minding their business" one. If it was truly random you'd expect both sets to look the same.

But my friend, you knew that