Oh, really?



I thought that a dose of reality might be in order to prevent this Board from continuing as the RCC echo chamber that it has become.

And I'm not picking on RCC by posting that. Christianity is in dire straits in all of its forms in the US. We need to quit bickering and unite as brothers and sisters in Christ. I am more guilty of the bickering than any, and for that I apologize.

To be fair, that graph ends in 2017. If we have seen an uptick in attendance in the last decade, it wouldn't be reflected in what you posted. So, I'm not sure we can fully rule out the growth that has been reported in the last couple years as untrue. The baptism and confirmation numbers from the past couple Easters have shown growth. Whether it is sustained remains to be seen

Our parish (Bastrop TX) is expanding. Too many people standing in the aisles.

KingofHazor said:

---

Oh, really?



I thought that a dose of reality might be in order to prevent this Board from continuing as the RCC echo chamber that it has become.

And I'm not picking on RCC by posting that. Christianity is in dire straits in all of its forms in the US. We need to quit bickering and unite as brothers and sisters in Christ. I am more guilty of the bickering than any, and for that I apologize.

---

I traveled back to 2017 to accept your apology

Reading that the Catholic Church is growing in Africa and Asia due to the changes brought about through Vatican II. More specifically, how missionary work is carried out through the local diocesan office, like small faith communities, and liturgical reforms that allow the same mass (Novus Ordo) in the local language.

Since I was born post Vatican II, I do not have the experience of the mass all in Latin. My mother, however, does. She has told me that they attended mass every Sunday and my grandfather attended daily mass. What she remembers the most is praying the rosary- in Spanish. She was born and raised in Laredo. Not many spoke English and much less Latin.

Growing up, what I remember was my mom taking my sister and me to Wednesday charismatic revival type events where Catholics, after mass in English, would gather and sing/pray with one another. My sister and I would be running around playing while they played these wonderful songs.

It was these songs and praise, together with the sacraments that stayed in my heart all along. Like a seed planted. I'm sure others can attest.

These are the same seeds that are now blooming in Africa and Asia.

I think understanding why something is happening is just as important as the fact that it is at all.

The Banned said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I think understanding why something is happening is just as important as the fact that it is at all.

---

The Latin mass was in place during the conversion of the entirety of North America and South America. To claim using local languages is the sole reason for the growth of the Church is not only incorrect, but unhelpful. You are trying to draw a line between the two camps in a space where it's absolutely unnecessary, which is what you're claiming the other side does.

---

I'm having images of a rainbow stole'd St. Junipero Serra liturgically dancing his way through the Americas, converting all through the power of Marty Haugen.

I realize you are having some fun at the expense of some of the things that have actually happened.

However, my point was more directed at the mission. To me the Catholic Church is seeing the fruits of the labor that the Holy Spirit blessed Vatican II, particularly the foundational document, Gaudium et Spes (Joy and Hope) for the church in the modern world.

This document, promulgated December 7, 1965; lays out among other things - active engagement by the lay faithful. Going back to my mother's religious experience growing up in a predominantly Catholic neighborhood, it was the Virgin Mary, specifically Our Lady of Guadalupe, that kept the faith alive. Maybe some of that is my grandparent's fault for not being more involved in the daily life of the church? Some of that is the fact that the priest and nuns did everything. The people just followed along or like some of the men, showed up at Christmas and Easter.

THAT is what I feel is one of the biggest updates Vatican II accomplished - announcing to everyone the universal call to holiness. And then- how to live that out in the life of the church.

I mention the small faith communities as critical to the mission, because it was through these "prayer groups" that the faith was reignited in my life. While the Lay Dominicans are hardly a small faith community- they formed a critical link for me at a time in my spiritual formation that I cannot imagine where I would be otherwise.

Oh- Marty Haugen is a very gifted musician!

The Banned said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I think understanding why something is happening is just as important as the fact that it is at all.

---

The Latin mass was in place during the conversion of the entirety of North America and South America. To claim using local languages is the sole reason for the growth of the Church is not only incorrect, but unhelpful. You are trying to draw a line between the two camps in a space where it's absolutely unnecessary, which is what you're claiming the other side does.

---

You're right. Slaughtering communities and/or swooping in after plagues ravaged 95%+ of the population and demanding conversion for food played a huge role on the Spanish side.

The Banned said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I think understanding why something is happening is just as important as the fact that it is at all.

---

The Latin mass was in place during the conversion of the entirety of North America and South America. To claim using local languages is the sole reason for the growth of the Church is not only incorrect, but unhelpful. You are trying to draw a line between the two camps in a space where it's absolutely unnecessary, which is what you're claiming the other side does.

---

The language that the mass is said, has less to do with the fire burning in your heart. What I am pointing to has more to do with the life of the church in the modern world and less with the liturgy. If it were as simple as the color of vestments, incense, and candles - all of the new world would have converted body and mind.

I looked at the website for one of those SSPX chapels in Africa founded by the Archbishop and it lists mass every 3 months! This is not uncommon in other parts of the world. What are the people supposed to do in between? Chant? Come'on man. They need real food. These communities flourish because of the laity and religious who keep the spirit alive.

You keep trying to say there is no connection between what the church did in Vatican II and growth- it does not add up. This was the work of the Holy Spirit plain and simple.

" demanding conversion for food"

Not saying this didn't happen by flawed individuals, but was there some official church document to back this up?

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

The Banned said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I think understanding why something is happening is just as important as the fact that it is at all.

---

The Latin mass was in place during the conversion of the entirety of North America and South America. To claim using local languages is the sole reason for the growth of the Church is not only incorrect, but unhelpful. You are trying to draw a line between the two camps in a space where it's absolutely unnecessary, which is what you're claiming the other side does.

---

You're right. Slaughtering communities and/or swooping in after plagues ravaged 95%+ of the population and demanding conversion for food played a huge role on the Spanish side.

---

So we gave starving people food, while saving their soul? What animals

---

The people were starving because the Spanish had destroyed their livelihoods and demanded slavery for food.

PabloSerna said:

---

" demanding conversion for food"

Not saying this didn't happen by flawed individuals, but was there some official church document to back this up?

---

The Encomienda system required labor and conversion for food in a system that was slavery except in name. The Church collected tithes and benefitted from taxes from this system and was deeply intertwined with the colonial state and the metropole.

To be fair, while seemingly enjoying being contentious, he does seem to be intelligent and well read. I suspect he has the same obstacle many intellectuals seem to have in that they are looking for physical proof of a metaphysical reality. That truth can only be discovered through beauty, goodness, and reason (I.e Aristotle coming to the conclusion that there must be an "eternal and uncaused entity". I pray for him and his soul that he will find the way.

Not sure where to put this but I find it pretty cool as a tradition at this RCC cathedral.

The Botafumeiro is one of the most spectacular traditions of Santiago de Compostela Cathedral: eight tiraboleiros swing a 53 kg giant censer through the nave at speeds of up to 68 km/h.

The ritual has been performed since at least the 12th century. pic.twitter.com/7yDisxjjpL

— Jeremy Wayne Tate (@JeremyTate41) August 5, 2026

Not to disparage but I laughed at this comment: "Big catholicism trying to win over the physicists again."

Me opening this thread:

KingofHazor said:

---

Oh, really?

I thought that a dose of reality might be in order to prevent this Board from continuing as the RCC echo chamber that it has become.

And I'm not picking on RCC by posting that. Christianity is in dire straits in all of its forms in the US. We need to quit bickering and unite as brothers and sisters in Christ. I am more guilty of the bickering than any, and for that I apologize.

---

Look, this board has done this discussion plenty of times here are the pretty obvious facts/concepts at play.

-Reported numbers of christian congregation group size is not equivalent to actual numbers of practicing christians. At all levels of reporting. There is a whole lot of malaise and stagnation culturally. This is not just a christian problem. The amount of people who claim to be christian but really aren't is vast. Every church has a 'membership' list that is 1/3rd regular attenders, 1/3 CEOs and 1/3rd non existent.
-Covid did an absolute number on church attendance/membership. A lot of people stopped going to church because their church allowed such a thing and only now are we really seeing people come back as people experience the left hand of God through continued missing of church.

-On the other end of the spectrum, there has been a great (but relatively small) re-sorting of families with young kids who reject a combination of low church culture and lukewarmness. This is your 'convert surge'.
-The numbers of the convert surge do not generally outweigh the malaise of the masses who are going from 1 service a month to 1 service a year. Or one service a year to no services a year.
-The convert surge is mostly in the south, texas, midwest, and west. The convert surge is not happening to the same degree in the north east because secularism has fully defeated them and their isn't a base stock of evangelicals to pull from.

-BUT hiding in the numbers of the convert surge is that these people are devout, pious, with young families. Protestant and evangelical churches are bleeding from their most pious families that would generally anchor the next generation.
-Protestant groups that see their next generation try to do some form of RETURN to more traditional expression of protestantism, or have their family trying to shake off even a hint of secularism is prime target for the catholic and orthodox church.

This trend will continue to accelerate. As evangelical and protestant groups have no basis to fend off secularism in all its forms, it will continue to embrace secularism slowly and begrudgingly, because conservatism is only a brake on secularism, not a paradigm shift. And then the women and LGBTQ pastors will have to have the last male on payroll (CFO) explain to them why their doors are shutting, donations are drying up, and where are all the young men for them to chide.

What do you think is going on here?

To me, this is another example of the church incorporating the faithful's yearn to participate in worship of God.

Music, art, architecture, vestments… all man's desire to connect. As long as we do not lose sight of why and who this is for- let it swing!

That works!