dermdoc said:

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Yes, dermdoc, we're on the same team. However, it is most unfortunate that even though the Catholic Church has only spoken ex cathedra twice in history, they got it horribly wrong both times, rejecting the plain teaching of the Bible in both cases, by teaching that Mary was sinless and did not experience death. While these heresies are bothersome and lay the foundation for a host of other false teachings, it is not the error itself that is the fundamental problem. I remain in fellowship with Believers who are in error; I know I am in error myself. The fundamental problem is that the errors proclaimed ex cathedra are unfixable. Unlike the disingenuous tome used to deal with fixing the Galileo scandal, there is no way for the Catholic Church to write its way out of the Maryan heresy. They're just stuck with it. So yeah, we're on the same team, but they board the bus with a lot of baggage.

94chem said:

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Yes, dermdoc, we're on the same team. However, it is most unfortunate that even though the Catholic Church has only spoken ex cathedra twice in history, they got it horribly wrong both times, rejecting the plain teaching of the Bible in both cases, by teaching that Mary was sinless and did not experience death. While these heresies are bothersome and lay the foundation for a host of other false teachings, it is not the error itself that is the fundamental problem. I remain in fellowship with Believers who are in error; I know I am in error myself. The fundamental problem is that the errors proclaimed ex cathedra are unfixable. Unlike the disingenuous tome used to deal with fixing the Galileo scandal, there is no way for the Catholic Church to write its way out of the Maryan heresy. They're just stuck with it. So yeah, we're on the same team, but they board the bus with a lot of baggage.

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Just wanted to point out a couple of the errors in your statement above:
1. There have been more and 2 excathedra statements in this history of the church.
2. The Church did not declare that Mary did not experience death.
3. The "plain teaching of the Bible" is not in fact plain or workable and leads to numerous interpretations. The ancient Church has always held and taught that Mary was without personal sin.

Just from a basic search it seems that the early church fathers were hardly unanimous or explicit when it came to Mary's sinlessness. It certainly seemed like something that developed over time.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I think that's true but have heard mixed messages on this forum, especially when it comes to the Eucharist and potentially your fate if you're not partaking of it properly. Could be a misunderstanding.

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I know a ton of Catholics including priests and bishops.Never heard that and we freely share our faith.My best friend is a devout Catholic and we talk about our faith all the time. Never heard it from him either. Maybe I am missing posts stating this.

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I think the description I am remembering (perhaps misremembering) has to do with Protestants not being united or belonging to the same church, since we do not partake of the Eucharist as prescribed by them. Perhaps they would be fine claiming "we are on the same team" but it almost feels like a patronizing statement at that point. I am open obviously to some clarification.

Protestants typically fall into 2 camps:
1) Catholics aren't on the same team at all. The extreme version of this view is the Adventists.
2) Catholics are on the same team, but we'll always be separate. As in, "I could never be one, but we teach and believe in the same Jesus."

Catholics typically align more with point 2. However, their view is more nuanced and begrudging toward Protestants. As in, "Good job on the Jesus part; I hope he saves you even though you got the church part wrong."

Faithful Ag said:

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94chem said:

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Yes, dermdoc, we're on the same team. However, it is most unfortunate that even though the Catholic Church has only spoken ex cathedra twice in history, they got it horribly wrong both times, rejecting the plain teaching of the Bible in both cases, by teaching that Mary was sinless and did not experience death. While these heresies are bothersome and lay the foundation for a host of other false teachings, it is not the error itself that is the fundamental problem. I remain in fellowship with Believers who are in error; I know I am in error myself. The fundamental problem is that the errors proclaimed ex cathedra are unfixable. Unlike the disingenuous tome used to deal with fixing the Galileo scandal, there is no way for the Catholic Church to write its way out of the Maryan heresy. They're just stuck with it. So yeah, we're on the same team, but they board the bus with a lot of baggage.

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Just wanted to point out a couple of the errors in your statement above:
1. There have been more and 2 excathedra statements in this history of the church.
2. The Church did not declare that Mary did not experience death.
3. The "plain teaching of the Bible" is not in fact plain or workable and leads to numerous interpretations. The ancient Church has always held and taught that Mary was without personal sin.

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This board is dominated, in replies if not viewers, by Catholics. I'll leave it to them to respond/add to what you just said. Just wanted you to know I read it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I think that's true but have heard mixed messages on this forum, especially when it comes to the Eucharist and potentially your fate if you're not partaking of it properly. Could be a misunderstanding.

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I know a ton of Catholics including priests and bishops.Never heard that and we freely share our faith.My best friend is a devout Catholic and we talk about our faith all the time. Never heard it from him either. Maybe I am missing posts stating this.

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I think the description I am remembering (perhaps misremembering) has to do with Protestants not being united or belonging to the same church, since we do not partake of the Eucharist as prescribed by them. Perhaps they would be fine claiming "we are on the same team" but it almost feels like a patronizing statement at that point. I am open obviously to some clarification.

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This is coming from your EO friends on this board. The Catholic perspective is an imperfect unity, or unity by desire. Well meaning Christians who want to do right by God but for some reason can't see the truth that is the Catholic Church. It may be because they've never heard a good reasoning from a knowlegable Catholic, they don't know any Catholics at all, they've been raised since birth thinking that the Catholic Church is the ***** of Babylon so they won't even give it a fair shot, etc.

The original reformers and those who originally left the Church have none of these excuses, but 500 years later, there are reasonable excuses for not being fully aligned with the Catholic Church. That's why we can, in some sense, say we're on the same team.

94chem said:

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Protestants typically fall into 2 camps:
1) Catholics aren't on the same team at all. The extreme version of this view is the Adventists.
2) Catholics are on the same team, but we'll always be separate. As in, "I could never be one, but we teach and believe in the same Jesus."

Catholics typically align more with point 2. However, their view is more nuanced and begrudging toward Protestants. As in, "Good job on the Jesus part; I hope he saves you even though you got the church part wrong."

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#1 has been the historical position of Protestantism. Really up until the last 30-40 years or so. Go read what the reformers had to say about the Catholic Church and where our damnable doctrines were going to send us. I mean, Americans were fearful of voting for JFK because the pope was going to tell him what to do all the time. Catholic hate runs very, very deep in ALL protestant sects outside of maybe Anglicanism (which still has some hate).

Pushing for #2 is the only way we're going to hopefully get all back in alignment. Any "begrudging" attitudes towards Protestants are well earned.

To be fair, the Reformers were dealing with some pretty damnable doctrines. And they took some pretty uncharitable actions towards each other as well. Let's pray the power of the sword no longer rests with the Church, mine or yours.

Paul said the same thing. You're overreaching.

94chem said:

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Paul said the same thing. You're overreaching.

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Paul: This is the gospel. If anyone comes to you, even me, with a different gospel, don't believe it

Luther: What everyone before me taught you about the gospel was wrong. I found the real gospel that nobody has ever taught from the very beginning of Christianity, and even if Paul came back and told me my new gospel was wrong, I wouldn't believe him.

Really want to say those are the same thing?

The Banned said:

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94chem said:

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Paul said the same thing. You're overreaching.

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Paul: This is the gospel. If anyone comes to you, even me, with a different gospel, don't believe it

Luther: What everyone before me taught you about the gospel was wrong. I found the real gospel that nobody has ever taught from the very beginning of Christianity, and even if Paul came back and told me my new gospel was wrong, I wouldn't believe him.

Really want to say those are the same thing?

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The Gospel is the Gospel. I don't think Luther or any of the Reformers taught a different Gospel. They taught a different theology and different theologies have been going on since Christ was resurrected.

dermdoc said:

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The Gospel is simple. We are sinners in need of a Savior. God sent Jesus who was crucified for the atonement of all men's sins and resurrected on the third day. And is at the right hand of the Father. Those who believe in Him and trust Him as their Savior are reconciled with God and receive eternal life which I believe begins now. It is not hard.

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And this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 14. Besides this simple truth, we should not argue and have disharmony among believers.

The Gospel includes John chapter 6, which is a point of disunity among just about all protestants (none of the reformers agreed on who the Eucharist is) and Catholics...

Rex Racer said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Gospel is simple. We are sinners in need of a Savior. God sent Jesus who was crucified for the atonement of all men's sins and resurrected on the third day. And is at the right hand of the Father. Those who believe in Him and trust Him as their Savior are reconciled with God and receive eternal life which I believe begins now. It is not hard.

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And this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 14. Besides this simple truth, we should not argue and have disharmony among believers.

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Luther created more Christian disunity and disharmony than any other human who has ever lived. In the same work where I have taken this quote, he rails against the Anabaptists for moving into Lutheran areas to try to convert them to Anabaptism. This was roughly 15 years after he was excommunicated.

In other works he clashes with Calvin for his beliefs. The Reformation was akin to a 2nd tower of babel, and it's harm towards the Kingdom on Earth persist to this day. The final trump card of the atheist/agnostic out there is "if there is an objective truth, which one of your denominations have it?"

While I'm sympathetic to this perspective for reasons of simplicity, it just can't hold up.

"Harmony among believers…" what does that mean? What's a believer? Who determines the standardsis it the Bible? Who determines the Bible is the word of God and authoritative? What about different interpretations of passages?

I wish it was as simple as some try to make it

TeddyAg0422 said:

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While I'm sympathetic to this perspective for reasons of simplicity, it just can't hold up.

"Harmony among believers…" what does that mean? What's a believer? Who determines the standardsis it the Bible? Who determines the Bible is the word of God and authoritative? What about different interpretations of passages?

I wish it was as simple as some try to make it

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It really is that simple. Just think, all the converts in the NT and early church knew nothing about these topics. They just believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Banned said:

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Rex Racer said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Gospel is simple. We are sinners in need of a Savior. God sent Jesus who was crucified for the atonement of all men's sins and resurrected on the third day. And is at the right hand of the Father. Those who believe in Him and trust Him as their Savior are reconciled with God and receive eternal life which I believe begins now. It is not hard.

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And this is what Paul was talking about in Romans 14. Besides this simple truth, we should not argue and have disharmony among believers.

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Luther created more Christian disunity and disharmony than any other human who has ever lived. In the same work where I have taken this quote, he rails against the Anabaptists for moving into Lutheran areas to try to convert them to Anabaptism. This was roughly 15 years after he was excommunicated.

In other works he clashes with Calvin for his beliefs. The Reformation was akin to a 2nd tower of babel, and its harm towards the Kingdom on Earth persist to this day. The final trump card of the atheist/agnostic out there is "if there is an objective truth, which one of your denominations have it?"

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Really? Your church is still reverberating with the consequences of elevating a bishop beyond his station with all the Vatican II spillover now, let alone 1000 years ago, and hundreds before Luther.

Like all those that turned away in John 6: 60-66 due to struggling to comprehend Eucharistic theology?

Or the two men that "wandered away from the truth" in 2 Timothy 2.

Or those in 1 John 2: 18-19, whom scholars view as early gnostics?

Christology, Soteriology, and Ecclesiology were heavily debated and important in the NT and early Church

TeddyAg0422 said:

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While I'm sympathetic to this perspective for reasons of simplicity, it just can't hold up.

"Harmony among believers…" what does that mean? What's a believer? Who determines the standardsis it the Bible? Who determines the Bible is the word of God and authoritative? What about different interpretations of passages?

I wish it was as simple as some try to make it

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Read Romans chapter 14 if you want to know what I meant when I posted "harmony among believers".

As for who determines the standard, that is the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that in John 6.

Quote:

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63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

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Our harmony should and could be rooted in our affirmation of something like the Nicene Creed, but we end up focusing on the one line that calls out the apostolic and catholic church

10andBOUNCE said:

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Our harmony should and could be rooted in our affirmation of something like the Nicene Creed, but we end up focusing on the one line that calls out the apostolic and catholic church

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Believe it or not, my Baptist church read the Nicene Creed on Easter Sunday morning. We had a communal reading of it.

As we all should

10andBOUNCE said:

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As we all should

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Amen.

TeddyAg0422 said:

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Like all those that turned away in John 6: 60-66 due to struggling to comprehend Eucharistic theology?

Or the two men that "wandered away from the truth" in 2 Timothy 2.

Or those in 1 John 2: 18-19, whom scholars view as early gnostics?

Christology, Soteriology, and Ecclesiology were heavily debated and important in the NT and early Church

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I don't recollect Jesus debating any of those. The Gospel is not up for debate. All the other stuff is man made.
And Paul always emphasized the simple Gospel and criticized those who did not. His words on church conduct were common sense. Don't get drunk at the meal, don't hoard food from the poor, don't commit sexual immorality, don't be distractions in worship, all in all pretty simple.

I think this is a vast oversimplification that disregards any nuance as to what "belief" truly is. Regardless, we both believe what we believe and we won't be convincing each other otherwise. God bless you!

TeddyAg0422 said:

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I think this is a vast oversimplification that disregards any nuance as to what "belief" truly is. Regardless, we both believe what we believe and we won't be convincing each other otherwise. God bless you!

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Same to you.

Protestants have been keeping the catholic church honest for 500 years. They deserve a little more gratitude.