No doubt some of them will, but other than saints I couldn't tell you specifics about the eternal situation of any given prelate or other person for that matter. Those engaged in protecting the child abuse should be held accountable, and there are many Catholics who are trying to do just that. Do you have any other insights/arguments on this subject?

File5 said:

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No doubt some of them will, but other than saints I couldn't tell you specifics about the eternal situation of any given prelate or other person for that matter. Those engaged in protecting the child abuse should be held accountable, and there are many Catholics who are trying to do just that. Do you have any other insights/arguments on this subject?

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First, I just copied the title of the article.

Second, res ipsa loquitur.

Third, as a practicing Roman Catholic I don't feel the need to do anything other than offer this article for consideration. I don't personally know if all, some or none of it is true, but I think we all know based on the track record of the Church over the last 60-70 years that it is very likely that much of it is true.

Last, my family was directly harmed by the evil perpetrated by some of the prelates of the Church as two of my uncles, one of whom was my godfather who killed himself at 31, were sexually assaulted by a priest who was bounced around by the Church. My grandparents never got an apology. So, when I see something like the Prayer of the Prey, I wish to share it so that other victims, potential victims and their families can realize that some of the people running our Church are bad and that they are not alone in their experiences.

My faith is in Christ alone and not in any bishop, priest, or nun. Yes, I understand that flawed people "run" the church, but I also understand that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us until the end of time.

ETA: anyone trying to "shame" people for living out their faith is misguided plain and simple. Listening to them is a waste of time.

I have no idea whether they are saved. That's not my call, that is between them and the creator.

My concern is getting rid of and prosecuting problem clergy with zero tolerance, one strike you are out enforcement, implementing measures to make sure they don't make to the priesthood in the first place, and harshly deal with those who cover up abuses

That's what we should do here on earth. After that it's out of our hands

File5 said:

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I just took the question at face value, didn't see article title. I couldn't agree more with you, it's certainly true and a horrible scandal that continues, and we are going to need more vigilante investigators to get the whole story and expose the corruption until the prelate within the Church do what's needed. I think you've shared that story before but I'll be praying for your godfather and family. Also idk how that Latin applies in the general sense, I did look it up but it confused me ha.

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Thanks for your reply.

Res ipsa loquitur as in "the thing (in this case the article and the video) speaks for itself. There's nothing I can add to what the article says and what the video shows that is not readily and clearly shown by the article and the video.

Both of my uncles suffered quite a bit as a result of what happened to them, but they both received Last Rites and I was able to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet for one of them right before he died in 2017, so I am hopeful they are both in or on their way to everlasting peace with their Creator.

The other reason to share the article and the video is to remind us how blessed we are to have good, holy and orthodox priests and bishops when we have them. We must lift them up and support them.

Not that anyone cares, but I'll add to my last post

Keep a damn eye on the seminaries, and what's going on there

Vet candidates, and adopt a hard line zero, and I mean ZERO tolerance for inappropriate sexual behavior in the seminaries, and by seminarians

One strike and you're out

Captain Pablo said:

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Not that anyone cares, but I'll add to my last post

Keep a damn eye on the seminaries, and what's going on there

Vet candidates, and adopt a hard line zero, and I mean ZERO tolerance for inappropriate sexual behavior in the seminaries, and by seminarians

One strike and you're out

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Absolutely. But that paradigm presumes that the rectors of those seminaries and the Bishops who have authority over them are actually supportive of eliminating the scourge, when it would seem that at least in some parts of America the opposite is happening.

Disgusting stuff

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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How likely is it that the Bishop in whose diocese this is happening will do NOTHING about this?

https://sfxavier.org/2026/05/pride-month-newletter/

This is from one of four out-and-affirming Catholic churches within the Archdiocese of New York. These are the Pride month Catholic activities in town.

Excerpt:


Hot Dykes and Transgendered Muslims, in Catholic parishes and the new Catholic Archbishop of New York, as with his predecessors, will say or do nothing.

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Many suspect that the archbishop is a fellow traveler.

747Ag said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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How likely is it that the Bishop in whose diocese this is happening will do NOTHING about this?

https://sfxavier.org/2026/05/pride-month-newletter/

This is from one of four out-and-affirming Catholic churches within the Archdiocese of New York. These are the Pride month Catholic activities in town.

Excerpt:


Hot Dykes and Transgendered Muslims, in Catholic parishes and the new Catholic Archbishop of New York, as with his predecessors, will say or do nothing.

---

Many suspect that the archbishop is a fellow traveler.

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He does seem……Synodal

Vox Clamantis said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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https://open.substack.com/pub/johneighteenthirtyseven/p/will-the-popes-and-bishops-burn-in?r=1eb7tu&utm_medium=ios

"Neither Francis nor Leo responded to "The Prayer of the Prey," which documents cases of truly egregious clerical sexual abuse. Any Catholic who clicks on and watches "The Prayer of the Prey" cannot help but be ashamed of being a member of the Roman Catholic Church, headed by popes and bishops who tolerate predator priests like former Father Jacob Bertrand who satanically abused Rachel Mastrogiacomo, and priests like Father Dennis Hanneman who was reported to the Antelope County Sheriff's Department for having insert consecrated hosts, rosaries, and candles into the lower orifices of at least two girls, including Lisa Roers, featured in "The Prayer of the Prey." This behavior is not only sick and evil, but the cover-up and spiritual betrayal by Church leaders often proves more devastating to victims than the actual abuse.

Despite the fact that Roers appealed her abuse to both Pope Francis (on September 30, 2024) and Pope Leo XIV (on March 15, 2025), she has yet to hear back from either Pope Leo or Omaha Archbishop Michael McGovern after writing to the Archdiocese on numerous occasions, most recently on November 11, 2025. Unfortunately, while the media reported faint promises uttered by Leo who staged a photo shoot with a few abuse victims at the Nunciature in Madrid, they avoid interviewing U.S. victims like Roers and Mastrogiacomo, whose cases demonstrate not only cover-ups by both popes, but also by prelates like Cardinal Robert McElroy, retired Archbishop George Lucas, and current Omaha Archbishop Michael McGovern."

The Prayer of the Prey -

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Absolutely I think a bunch of Popes and Bishops will burn in hell. They're the epitome of "to whom much is given much is required". They were given charge of a church, and they will be judged on how they led their flock.

With that being said, I think the church has made great strides in cracking down on abuse, first hand I know the vetting and background checks I've had to go through to be a volunteer coach of my kids' sports teams at their Catholic school.

AND I am just basing this off of gut feeling, I don't know anything about the cases in question, there must be more to the story.

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Progress likely has been made, yet all the training we're subjected to irritates me. The laity weren't the problem. It was primarily gay priests and bishops (see the original John Jay report). And it was Uncle Ted who led the charge in the Dallas charter that got us this and yet he persisted until it hit the fan 8-ish years ago. Laity still bearing the brunt of their malfeasance... investigations/training, selling of our parishes to pay for the lawsuits, etc..

That's a hell of an accusation to make that you don't have the right to make.

Still better off Catholic than Protestant.

Evil men do not invalidate The Church.

I'm being kind as an Orthodox because I don't really even like the RCC but I think one day we will reunite as they are an actual valid Church.

Protestantism will die. It's just another heretical flash in the pan in the long run destined to die the death it deserves.

The Church won't.

BroImpeccable said:

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I sincerely hope that you do not hold to this flawed view of Protestantism.

Faithful Protestants are indeed members of the of the body of Christ (the Church).

God is using Protestant churches and Protestant people to accomplish His purposes, and that is a beautiful thing. I would hate for you to not see that because of a prejudiced point of view.

Ephesians 2:19-22

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I assume you are Protestant and would have that point of view.

That's fine but the tone of the thread was to attack the Catholic Church in a hateful & biased manner.

My stance, even as Orthodox, is that despite issues with sex scandals, which Protestants and all institutions involving humans share, it is still better to be within The Church (RCC, Orthodox, Armenian etc…).

Protestant is a broad term and the overwhelming majority are undoubtably Christian but they are not within "The Church". I understand why you choose to corrupt the term as it is an offensive notion to you but it remains factually true.

Protestantism embraces & celebrates the individual, self-determination and interpretation. This leads to an incredible number of errors and with so many conflicting viewpoints even within congregations.

Your faith rejected The Church and attempted to redefine it. That's your choice and you should be ok with that.

Along with the rejection of the Sacraments, Sola Scriptura and the lack of a true Eucharist for most. Alter calls, "being saved", The Rapture, the views on sins and legalistic nature of the Protestant faith.

Well… that's just a lot of stuff.

BroImpeccable said:

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Yes, I am a Protestant (though I agree that it can be a broad term). Consequentially, I very much disagree with your proposition that Protestants corrupted/redefined the term "Church."

I am genuinely curious how you would define the Church. You note that you believe that there are Christians who are not in "the Church". That claim is puzzling to say the least.

The end just reads as if you were throwing things you don't like about some Protestant traditions at the wall and seeing what sticks. We can discuss those but some are either vague or not pertinent.

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I think it just sounds like a new concept to you. It's not a new argument.

Easier to just Google it for you:

Simple reply but straight forward.

https://g.co/gemini/share/c12631b71992

To understand these questions, it helps to look at how different traditions define the very word "church." What sounds like a simple disagreement over a word is actually a deep, historic clash over what the Christian community fundamentally *is*.

Here is a breakdown of how Orthodox and Catholic Christians view "the Church," why that excludes Protestant denominations from their definition, and why it still causes tension today.

## 1. What "The Church" Means to Catholics and Orthodox
For a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox person, the Church is not just a loose association of believers, a building, or a voluntary club. It is a specific, visible, historical, and organic institution established directly by Jesus Christ.
They view the Church as a physical and spiritual continuum that has existed unbroken since the Apostles. This view relies on three massive pillars:

* **Apostolic Succession:** The belief that Christ gave spiritual authority to his Apostles, who passed it on to the first bishops through the laying on of hands, who passed it on to the next, in an unbroken chain down to today's bishops and priests.

* **The Sacraments:** The Church is the custodian of the Sacraments (like the Eucharist and Baptism). These are seen as the literal channels of God's grace, and they require a validly ordained priest to administer them.

* **Visible Unity:** The Church is a single, visible body with a clear structure, unified in its theology, liturgy, and ancient tradition.
To them, "the Church" is a literal, living organismoften called the mystical Body of Christthat possesses the exclusive fullness of the Christian faith.

## 2. Why They Don't Consider Protestants Part of "The Church"

Because of the definitions above, Catholic and Orthodox Christians cannot, by their own theological logic, view Protestant denominations as "churches" in the strict sense. Instead, official documents (like the Vatican's *Dominus Iesus*) often refer to Protestant groups as **"ecclesial communities."**

Here is why they draw that line:

* **Broken Succession:** When the Protestant Reformation occurred in the 1500s, Protestants broke away from the existing Catholic hierarchy. In doing so, from the Catholic/Orthodox perspective, they lost Apostolic Succession.

* **Invalid Holy Orders:** Because Protestants rejected the traditional priesthood and the authority of bishops linked back to the Apostles, Catholics and Orthodox believe Protestant ministers do not have validly ordained holy orders.

* **Loss of the Sacraments:** Without valid priests, Protestants (in the Catholic/Orthodox view) do not have a valid Eucharist (Communion) or Confession. They are seen as missing the vital supernatural framework that defines the Church.

> **Important Nuance:** This does **not** mean Catholics or Orthodox believe Protestants aren't Christians or are all going to hell. Both traditions recognize that anyone baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is truly a Christian and is united to Christ in a real, though imperfect, way. They just aren't part of the *visible, institutional* Church.


## 3. Didn't Protestants Reject "The Church"?

Historically, it depends on who you ask.

* **The Catholic/Orthodox View:** Yes, Protestants rejected the Church. They walked away from the authority of the Pope, the Councils, and the historical bishops, effectively fracturing the unity of the Christian world into thousands of independent denominations.

* **The Protestant View:** No, they didn't reject the *concept* of the Church; they believed the medieval Catholic Church had become corrupt and strayed from biblical truth. Protestants argue they were **reforming** the Church to bring it back to its pure, early roots.
Furthermore, Protestants redefined what the Church means. They generally split it into two concepts: the *Visible Church* (imperfect local congregations) and the *Invisible Church* (the collection of all true believers everywhere, across all denominations, known only to God). Because Protestants believe the Church is "invisible" and bound together by faith alonenot by a hierarchy of bishopsthey don't see themselves as having left it.

## 4. Why Would a Protestant Be Bothered by This Today?

Even though the Reformation happened 500 years ago, this theological boundary line can still sting. A Protestant might feel frustrated or slighted today for a few key reasons:

* **A Sense of Exclusion and Diminishment:** To a Protestant, their relationship with Jesus, their local church community, and their ministry are deeply real. Being told by a Catholic or Orthodox friend that their congregation is just an "ecclesial community" and not a "true church" can feel insulting, elitist, or dismissive of their genuine faith.

* **The Pain of Closed Communion:** The most tangible place this hurts is at weddings, funerals, or casual Sunday visits. Because Catholics and Orthodox believe Communion is a sign of total theological unity and a literal sacrament, they do not permit Protestants to receive it. For a Protestant who views Communion as a beautiful way for *all* Christians to remember Christ together, being passed over or told to stay in the pew feels like a painful rejection.

* **The "Invisible Church" Assumption:** Many modern Protestants grow up with a non-denominational or broad evangelical mindset where "we all love Jesus, so the legalistic labels don't matter." Because their theology is highly inclusive of other denominations, they are often caught off guard when they realize that Catholics and Orthodox operate on a completely different, highly institutional set of rules.

CrackerJackAg said:

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That's a hell of an accusation to make that you don't have the right to make.

Still better off Catholic than Protestant.

Evil men do not invalidate The Church.

I'm being kind as an Orthodox because I don't really even like the RCC but I think one day we will reunite as they are an actual valid Church.

Protestantism will die. It's just another heretical flash in the pan in the long run destined to die the death it deserves.

The Church won't.

---

10andBOUNCE said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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BroImpeccable said:

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Yes, I am a Protestant (though I agree that it can be a broad term). Consequentially, I very much disagree with your proposition that Protestants corrupted/redefined the term "Church."

I am genuinely curious how you would define the Church. You note that you believe that there are Christians who are not in "the Church". That claim is puzzling to say the least.

The end just reads as if you were throwing things you don't like about some Protestant traditions at the wall and seeing what sticks. We can discuss those but some are either vague or not pertinent.

---

> **Important Nuance:** This does **not** mean Catholics or Orthodox believe Protestants aren't Christians or are all going to hell. Both traditions recognize that anyone baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is truly a Christian and is united to Christ in a real, though imperfect, way. They just aren't part of the *visible, institutional* Church.

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This is something that hasn't made a lot of sense to me, obviously since I am a 5 Solas guy. Even though protestants are outside of the "true Church" the Catholic and EO would still recognize a baptism as valid?

Humor me and consider which of the following you believe will be saved and with Christ in Heaven according to the teachings of the "true Church"

A. Protestant who came forward at end of service at a mega baptist church during an alter call to "ask Jesus into their heart" and was baptized the following Sunday by one of the elders of the church. Not much else is known about this person.
B. Protestant who has developed a deep devotion of faith through Bible preaching at a local church, is involved and shows the fruit of their faith, and exercises an on-going cycle of seeking forgiveness, repenting, and placing trust in Christ for all. This person ended up not getting baptized because they were just nervous to be in front of a lot of people.

Not trying to be cute, but I think this will help my understanding if you are willing to try and answer.

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I cannot speak for the salvation of others or what is in their heart or what is in Gods "mind".

As an Orthodox person, I can say that I know where God is, but I cannot say where he isn't.

I think that the full richness of the Christian faith is found in The Church and The Eucharist.

Anything outside of that you are depriving yourself of the most significant part of what it means to be a Christian outside of the correct belief in Jesus Christ as our savior.

Vox Clamantis said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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That's a hell of an accusation to make that you don't have the right to make.

Still better off Catholic than Protestant.

Evil men do not invalidate The Church.

I'm being kind as an Orthodox because I don't really even like the RCC but I think one day we will reunite as they are an actual valid Church.

Protestantism will die. It's just another heretical flash in the pan in the long run destined to die the death it deserves.

The Church won't.

---

---

This is not true. We are mostly friends and brothers. We just wish our brother would quit being a self important dick.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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That's a hell of an accusation to make that you don't have the right to make.

Still better off Catholic than Protestant.

Evil men do not invalidate The Church.

I'm being kind as an Orthodox because I don't really even like the RCC but I think one day we will reunite as they are an actual valid Church.

Protestantism will die. It's just another heretical flash in the pan in the long run destined to die the death it deserves.

The Church won't.

---

---

This is not true. We are mostly friends and brothers. We just wish our brother would quit being a self important dick.

---

Being a self-important dick is my charism.

CrackerJackAg said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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That's a hell of an accusation to make that you don't have the right to make.

Still better off Catholic than Protestant.

Evil men do not invalidate The Church.

I'm being kind as an Orthodox because I don't really even like the RCC but I think one day we will reunite as they are an actual valid Church.

Protestantism will die. It's just another heretical flash in the pan in the long run destined to die the death it deserves.

The Church won't.

---

---

This is not true. We are mostly friends and brothers. We just wish our brother would quit being a self important dick.

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We just wish our brother would quit being a self important richard as well.