dermdoc said:

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You also have to take in account the illiteracy rate and lack of Bibles, especially before the printing press, for much of that time period.

---

This is the perfect argument against the clarity of scripture. As soon as the common man starts to read it, there is a massive splintering based on theological disagreements that were derived from a "clear" teaching in the bible.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting to be a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

And basic soteriology between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestant denominations are not very different for the most part. Granted there is a complete different view of the Sacraments. The Gospel is the Gospel. You either know the Lord as your Lord and Savior or you don't.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

You also have to take in account the illiteracy rate and lack of Bibles, especially before the printing press, for much of that time period.

---

This is the perfect argument against the clarity of scripture. As soon as the common man starts to read it, there is a massive splintering based on theological disagreements that were derived from a "clear" teaching in the bible.

---

Or you have mere men translating the Scripture themselves and keeping the common man from access. Lots of power and control there.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

You also have to take in account the illiteracy rate and lack of Bibles, especially before the printing press, for much of that time period.

---

This is the perfect argument against the clarity of scripture. As soon as the common man starts to read it, there is a massive splintering based on theological disagreements that were derived from a "clear" teaching in the bible.

---

Or you have mere men translating the Scripture themselves and keeping the common man from access. Lots of power and control there.

---

My point was there was no debate on this issue. Once the bible was open to interpretation by anyone who reads it, a massive number of disagreements came forth. Because of that, we splintered into infinity different sects, which goes in opposition of what the Lord prayed for.

I personally don't see how this can be an argument for the clarity of scripture or trusting in personal interpretation. It seems the exact opposite to me. If I can read a passage one way and you read it another, it seems logical for us to seek out someone who can settle the disagreement. Just like they did in Acts.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

---

I understand your definition of faith alone, and I have no doubt you love the Lord. What I am saying is who are we to say the people who do ascribe to this type of "faith alone" are wrong? Is there something they aren't "doing" that prevents them from being saved?

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

---

I understand your definition of faith alone, and I have no doubt you love the Lord. What I am saying is who are we to say the people who do ascribe to this type of "faith alone" are wrong? Is there something they aren't "doing" that prevents them from being saved?

---

What I am saying is it happens in the Catholic Church also. Maybe said differently. But same lukewarm folks. The words mean nothing unless they really do. No matter what church, cathedral, basilica, whatever.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

---

I understand your definition of faith alone, and I have no doubt you love the Lord. What I am saying is who are we to say the people who do ascribe to this type of "faith alone" are wrong? Is there something they aren't "doing" that prevents them from being saved?

---

What I am saying is it happens in the Catholic Church also. Maybe said differently. But same lukewarm folks. The words mean nothing unless they really do. No matter what church, cathedral, basilica, whatever.

---

Well sure, every Church has it's poor adherents. We're talking doctrine of salvation being taught by pastors to their respective flocks. Surely you see the important distinction there.

ETA: You would agree that these adherents that just say the words are failing to "do" something, yes?

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

---

I understand your definition of faith alone, and I have no doubt you love the Lord. What I am saying is who are we to say the people who do ascribe to this type of "faith alone" are wrong? Is there something they aren't "doing" that prevents them from being saved?

---

What I am saying is it happens in the Catholic Church also. Maybe said differently. But same lukewarm folks. The words mean nothing unless they really do. No matter what church, cathedral, basilica, whatever.

---

Well sure, every Church has it's poor adherents. We're talking doctrine of salvation being taught by pastors to their respective flocks. Surely you see the important distinction there.

ETA: You would agree that these adherents that just say the words are failing to "do" something, yes?

---

I think you are really misinformed about the doctrine of "faith alone". And I understand that. There a ton of non Catholics who think Catholicism is a works based salvation soteriology. And it is not.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you think it affects salvation if one believes in monergism or synergism? I do not.

And from my reading of Scripture, you can make a case for both.

---

It certainly can. Earlier you said

Quote:

---

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You know as well as I there is a decent sized contingent of free grace/cheap grace adherents out that the explicitly teach that it does not matter how you act after "being saved". All you have to do is say the words. And if it is "faith alone", they aren't wrong. The caveat that faith necessarily creates good works is something reject wholeheartedly.

---

I will counter by saying no church I have been associated with have advocated just "saying the words". And I know many Catholics who go to mass irregularly and believe they are saved just because they have been baptized as Catholics.

From my experience (which unfortunately is getting a pretty long period of time) you have a lot of people just "saying the words" in Catholic Churches, Protestant churches, all churches. That does not mean what the churches or denominations teach. People are people.

---

But you would agree there are "pastors" that teach this, right? Maybe not at the churches you've attended, but you can find plenty on youtube that teach this.

And I'm not sure how anyone ascribing to "faith alone" can tell them they're wrong. Did they not "do" faith correctly?

---

I think you have to define what "faith alone" means. It is definitely not just saying some words, With all due respect, you are exhibiting the same lack of understanding that a lot of Catholic bashers use. It is a shame we can't communicate better. We all love the Lord.

---

I understand your definition of faith alone, and I have no doubt you love the Lord. What I am saying is who are we to say the people who do ascribe to this type of "faith alone" are wrong? Is there something they aren't "doing" that prevents them from being saved?

---

What I am saying is it happens in the Catholic Church also. Maybe said differently. But same lukewarm folks. The words mean nothing unless they really do. No matter what church, cathedral, basilica, whatever.

---

Well sure, every Church has it's poor adherents. We're talking doctrine of salvation being taught by pastors to their respective flocks. Surely you see the important distinction there.

ETA: You would agree that these adherents that just say the words are failing to "do" something, yes?

---

I think you are really misinformed about the doctrine of "faith alone". And I understand that. There a ton of non Catholics who think Catholicism is a works based salvation soteriology. And it is not.

---

I am not in anyway unfamiliar with faith alone. I understand that you believe it is more than mere intellectual faith. That true faith will necessarily create a regenerative change in you that spurs you on to good works. But you seem to be unaware that many people do preach this version of faith alone. I guess you've never experienced it. It may really help you to see those guys preaching it. If so, I can provide some links

Even so, I'm curious how you'd answer the question. If there are people who claim to believe, but there are no outward signs of their belief, on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith? It would seem you'd have to conclude that they are either lying or deluded. Neither are attractive options

Quote:

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on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

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Don't think we can say that

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

Agree. That is way above my pay grade. All any of us can do is witness, present the Gospel, be faithful, and produce fruit. I can not make someone else have faith.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

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on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Thief on the cross?

I am not the one to judge someone's true faith.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

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on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Only genuine faith will have good works. Only good works with a regenerated heart will be pleasing to God, and we cannot know such things. We can surely do our best to discern who is a believer and who is not and fellowship with those who we believe are the faithful.

I am not understanding the perceived tension with the two ideas I guess.

Would him proclaiming Jesus as Lord while dying on a cross not be an act of faith/good work?

Plus, extraordinarily and rare circumstances don't prevent another way from being ordinary/ideal

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Only genuine faith will have good works. Only good works with a regenerated heart will be pleasing to God, and we cannot know such things. We can surely do our best to discern who is a believer and who is not and fellowship with those who we believe are the faithful.

I am not understanding the perceived tension with the two ideas I guess.

---

On one side of the protestant aisle we have "faith alone, but true faith is never alone... it always has good works with it" (or something like this formula). On the other side we have "faith saves you even if works aren't present". I'm sure you'd pick the former, but you just said that we can't say someone who says they have faith ut doesn't live a Christian life may still be saved. You don't see the tension?

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Only genuine faith will have good works. Only good works with a regenerated heart will be pleasing to God, and we cannot know such things. We can surely do our best to discern who is a believer and who is not and fellowship with those who we believe are the faithful.

I am not understanding the perceived tension with the two ideas I guess.

---

On one side of the protestant aisle we have "faith alone, but true faith is never alone... it always has good works with it" (or something like this formula). On the other side we have "faith saves you even if works aren't present". I'm sure you'd pick the former, but you just said that we can't say someone who says they have faith ut doesn't live a Christian life may still be saved. You don't see the tension?

---

I am bowing out as I do not want to participate in a Catholic/Protestant duel. And that one has to be right and one has to be wrong.

Shalom.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Thief on the cross?

I am not the one to judge someone's true faith.

---

What do we tell all the converts that aren't in the middle of their execution? Do they just need to profess faith, or is something expected of them after their conversion?

"Faith alone" is just not a good term to use. Faith plus works was always used as a pejorative. I think it was Zobel who said the best term to use is "Faithfulness". Yes, things are expected of you after conversion. Yes, you must go do those things God is asking you to do. Yes, if you choose not to do them, you are not being faithful and may suffer eternal loss because of it. No one can "earn" Heaven and no one just gets to intellectually assent and get to Heaven. We "do" things that affect our salvation, and that is not a one time profession of faith.

I want to commission one of these to put near my backdoor as reminder to love my neighbor. In Orthodoxy, we are taught that we are made in the image of Jesus, we are Theomorphic. This icon reminds us that everyone is a part of the body of Christ and that when we KNOW Him it's deep; it's caring, it's empathy, it's participation in Him. Working out the faith is faithfulness; they aren't opposed, they should be in harmony.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

on what basis can you say they don't have a true faith?

---

Don't think we can say that

---

So then good works don't necessarily come out of a true faith? A true faith can have no good fruit?

---

Only genuine faith will have good works. Only good works with a regenerated heart will be pleasing to God, and we cannot know such things. We can surely do our best to discern who is a believer and who is not and fellowship with those who we believe are the faithful.

I am not understanding the perceived tension with the two ideas I guess.

---

On one side of the protestant aisle we have "faith alone, but true faith is never alone... it always has good works with it" (or something like this formula). On the other side we have "faith saves you even if works aren't present". I'm sure you'd pick the former, but you just said that we can't say someone who says they have faith ut doesn't live a Christian life may still be saved. You don't see the tension?

---

I am bowing out as I do not want to participate in a Catholic/Protestant duel. And that one has to be right and one has to be wrong.

Shalom.

---

Sorry if this came across as Catholic vs Protestant. I attempted to pit one Protestant view against another in a situation where neither can be true simultaneously. I don't try to force people into a "right or wrong" but when one side says we have to go up and the other side says we have to go down, picking a side seems inevitable...

TSJ said:

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I want to commission one of these to put near my backdoor as reminder to love my neighbor. In Orthodoxy, we are taught that we are made in the image of Jesus, we are Theomorphic. This icon reminds us that everyone is a part of the body of Christ and that when we KNOW Him it's deep; it's caring, it's empathy, it's participation in Him. Working out the faith is faithfulness; they aren't opposed, they should be in harmony.

---

Very nice. Thank you for sharing. Everything you said is true for Catholicism as well.

That was great, thx. I have to include "Blessed Assurance" which is in my top 20 hymns.

Any idea where I could find that i on?

nortex97 said:

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That was great, thx. I have to include "Blessed Assurance" which is in my top 20 hymns.

---

That is going to be played at my funeral along with a medley of "Are you washed in the Blood" and "I'll Fly Away".

I really like Alan Jackson's version of those.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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And what does it mean to "believe"? Even the demons believe Jesus is who he is.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46, RSV)

Prior to the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 25, Jesus also tells us:

"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matthew 7:21-23, RSV)

Those calling him "Lord" clearly "believe." Why then are they not saved?

So according to Matthew 25 the criteria of final judgment are: those who are judged righteous ("sheep") are those who have compassionately served the hungry, thirsty, strangers, the naked, the sick, and the imprisoned, the marginalized and needy people they could help in their life. Those judged unrighteous ("goats") are characterized by their failure to serve these same groups, showing hardness of heart and lack of mercy. This is not simply about doing general good deeds, but about responding specifically to people whom one realistically can assist according to one's gifts and opportunities, reflecting the diversity of charisms taught by Paul in the New Testament.

Jesus warns that lacking compassion for those who can be helped endangers salvation as much as actively opposing Him or the Holy Spirit. The followers of Christ (disciples then and now) are called to cultivate a heart of mercy, which is central to Christian spiritual life and the Kingdom of God (Mt 25:41-46). This is the heart of the matter (pun intended): heartlessness separates people from God at the final judgment because it reveals an allegiance to "another master", one hard-hearted and lacking love who is identified with Satan and his demons who will themselves receive final condemnation (Mt 25:41).

Who is Jesus addressing in Matthew 25? Though it can't be said with absolute certainty, it seems that the Gospel of Matthew overall was written primarily for a Jewish-Christian community who were seeking to understand their place inside and outside Judaism, and the disciples are typically the immediate audience for Jesus' teachings throughout the Gospel. The discourse in Matthew 25 is about judgment and responsibility, addressed in a way that the disciples and by extension the early Church and those of us today who profess faith in Him, who "believe" in Him-would understand their roles and duties (including mercy and justice) as members of the Kingdom of God. So it seems clear that He is addressing His disciples, specifically His closest followers who are to carry on His teaching and mission. He is instructing the disciples (and ultimately anyone who claims to have faith in Him) about the manner in which they are to live as His followers, being vigilant and compassionate, and anticipating the ultimate separation of the righteous from the unrighteous.

So if we want to enter heaven, which is nothing less than a sharing in or partaking of the divine nature through union with our Creator, we must be conformed to Jesus (the God-man who "marries" or unites the divine with the creature, so that the creature might become like the divine). How are we conformed to him? "Believe" in him? Depends on how we understand "believe." According to Jesus we must deny ourselves, take up our crosses daily and follow him. (Luke 9:23, RSV) Moreover, as He tells us in Matthew 25, we must see Him in our fellow man and treat others accordingly. Jesus says those who fail to show mercy to others are effectively rejecting Him, warning the audience that this endangers their salvation in that it lacks conformity to Jesus's own life, which in the end is the test for entering into everlasting life. Do you "believe" in Jesus Christ? Show me how conformed your life is to Jesus and that will answer the question. And just to be clear, to the extent we are conformed to Jesus it is his gift to us. It's not some Pelagian effort.

So in Matthew 25 Jesus is addressing His disciples, instructing them and through them the Christian community then and now about readiness for the final judgment and the implications of belonging to His Kingdom of God. Jesus's teaching presumes the faith of those whom He is describing (sheep and goats). It is addressed to His followers and distinguishes between those who are true disciples and those who are not, based on their acts of compassion toward "the least of these," who represent Christ Himself. The parable's judgment is grounded in recognizing the dignity of every human being as equal to Jesus's own dignity, which presumes a Christian worldview of faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. So those hearing this sobering teaching were presumptively people of faith. The same is true for those of us hearing it today who profess that faith.

Those who show mercy and serve the needy reflect authentic faith and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven (the sheep). But, those who show hardness of heart and ignore the needy are identified not as His followers, but followers of "another master" (Satan), jeopardizing their salvation, even though they are presumptively people of faith.

Faith is a gift from God that in its essence is openness of the human heart to receive God's gifts, which are the works of mercy Jesus describes in Matthew 25 (St John Paul II). In summary, we must have faith in Christ to be "eligible" for heaven and that faith must lead to conformity to Christ and so must be exhibited and expressed through the behaviors Jesus describes in Matthew 25. Faith that saves us is a living faith to the extent our lives exhibit the behaviors Jesus calls for in Matthew 25. But our salvation is at risk if we have faith but our lives lack those behaviors. Basically, faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).

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Paul: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Catholicism: Too many words to read.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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And what does it mean to "believe"? Even the demons believe Jesus is who he is.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46, RSV)

Prior to the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 25, Jesus also tells us:

"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Matthew 7:21-23, RSV)

Those calling him "Lord" clearly "believe." Why then are they not saved?

So according to Matthew 25 the criteria of final judgment are: those who are judged righteous ("sheep") are those who have compassionately served the hungry, thirsty, strangers, the naked, the sick, and the imprisoned, the marginalized and needy people they could help in their life. Those judged unrighteous ("goats") are characterized by their failure to serve these same groups, showing hardness of heart and lack of mercy. This is not simply about doing general good deeds, but about responding specifically to people whom one realistically can assist according to one's gifts and opportunities, reflecting the diversity of charisms taught by Paul in the New Testament.

Jesus warns that lacking compassion for those who can be helped endangers salvation as much as actively opposing Him or the Holy Spirit. The followers of Christ (disciples then and now) are called to cultivate a heart of mercy, which is central to Christian spiritual life and the Kingdom of God (Mt 25:41-46). This is the heart of the matter (pun intended): heartlessness separates people from God at the final judgment because it reveals an allegiance to "another master", one hard-hearted and lacking love who is identified with Satan and his demons who will themselves receive final condemnation (Mt 25:41).

Who is Jesus addressing in Matthew 25? Though it can't be said with absolute certainty, it seems that the Gospel of Matthew overall was written primarily for a Jewish-Christian community who were seeking to understand their place inside and outside Judaism, and the disciples are typically the immediate audience for Jesus' teachings throughout the Gospel. The discourse in Matthew 25 is about judgment and responsibility, addressed in a way that the disciples and by extension the early Church and those of us today who profess faith in Him, who "believe" in Him-would understand their roles and duties (including mercy and justice) as members of the Kingdom of God. So it seems clear that He is addressing His disciples, specifically His closest followers who are to carry on His teaching and mission. He is instructing the disciples (and ultimately anyone who claims to have faith in Him) about the manner in which they are to live as His followers, being vigilant and compassionate, and anticipating the ultimate separation of the righteous from the unrighteous.

So if we want to enter heaven, which is nothing less than a sharing in or partaking of the divine nature through union with our Creator, we must be conformed to Jesus (the God-man who "marries" or unites the divine with the creature, so that the creature might become like the divine). How are we conformed to him? "Believe" in him? Depends on how we understand "believe." According to Jesus we must deny ourselves, take up our crosses daily and follow him. (Luke 9:23, RSV) Moreover, as He tells us in Matthew 25, we must see Him in our fellow man and treat others accordingly. Jesus says those who fail to show mercy to others are effectively rejecting Him, warning the audience that this endangers their salvation in that it lacks conformity to Jesus's own life, which in the end is the test for entering into everlasting life. Do you "believe" in Jesus Christ? Show me how conformed your life is to Jesus and that will answer the question. And just to be clear, to the extent we are conformed to Jesus it is his gift to us. It's not some Pelagian effort.

So in Matthew 25 Jesus is addressing His disciples, instructing them and through them the Christian community then and now about readiness for the final judgment and the implications of belonging to His Kingdom of God. Jesus's teaching presumes the faith of those whom He is describing (sheep and goats). It is addressed to His followers and distinguishes between those who are true disciples and those who are not, based on their acts of compassion toward "the least of these," who represent Christ Himself. The parable's judgment is grounded in recognizing the dignity of every human being as equal to Jesus's own dignity, which presumes a Christian worldview of faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. So those hearing this sobering teaching were presumptively people of faith. The same is true for those of us hearing it today who profess that faith.

Those who show mercy and serve the needy reflect authentic faith and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven (the sheep). But, those who show hardness of heart and ignore the needy are identified not as His followers, but followers of "another master" (Satan), jeopardizing their salvation, even though they are presumptively people of faith.

Faith is a gift from God that in its essence is openness of the human heart to receive God's gifts, which are the works of mercy Jesus describes in Matthew 25 (St John Paul II). In summary, we must have faith in Christ to be "eligible" for heaven and that faith must lead to conformity to Christ and so must be exhibited and expressed through the behaviors Jesus describes in Matthew 25. Faith that saves us is a living faith to the extent our lives exhibit the behaviors Jesus calls for in Matthew 25. But our salvation is at risk if we have faith but our lives lack those behaviors. Basically, faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).

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Paul: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Catholicism: Too many words to read.

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What does it mean to believe?

(pisteu): The verb "to believe," meaning to have faith in, to trust, to rely on, to entrust.. (Total dependence and not just intellectual acknowledgement)

Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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(pisteu): The verb "to believe," meaning to have faith in, to trust, to rely on, to entrust.. (Total dependence and not just intellectual acknowledgement)

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Agree.

Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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(pisteu): The verb "to believe," meaning to have faith in, to trust, to rely on, to entrust.. (Total dependence and not just intellectual acknowledgement)

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So not merely faith, faithfulness?

dermdoc said:

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I have a ton of Catholic/Orthodox friends. And numerous priests. We laugh about the perceived differences in soteriology.

We all believe basically the same thing with a different emphasis on Sacraments. When anybody starts saying Catholicism is a works based salvation deal I ignore them as they have no idea what they are talking about.

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

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You have Orthodox Priest laugh at the "perceived differences in Soteriology"? I don't believe that is true. I assume you mean Catholic. I don't know any Orthodox Priest that would say that.

I would agree that Protestants have a really weird and inaccurate view towards Catholicism. I'm not Catholic but I hear it pretty regularly and I end up defending Catholics.

As a Protestant for the first 30 years of my life I fully understand Protestantism. The Orthodox are very different. It take a pretty reductionist mindset to come to that conclusion or you don't understand Orthodoxy.

Catholics and Traditional Protestants are basically the same to us. Whacky Protestant is a whole another thing all together and are not identifiable to me as Christianity following the same Christ I know.

CrackerJackAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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I have a ton of Catholic/Orthodox friends. And numerous priests. We laugh about the perceived differences in soteriology.

We all believe basically the same thing with a different emphasis on Sacraments. When anybody starts saying Catholicism is a works based salvation deal I ignore them as they have no idea what they are talking about.

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

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You have Orthodox Priest laugh at the "perceived differences in Soteriology"? I don't believe that is true. I assume you mean Catholic. I don't know any Orthodox Priest that would say that.

I would agree that Protestants have a really weird and inaccurate view towards Catholicism. I'm not Catholic but I hear it pretty regularly and I end up defending Catholics.

As a Protestant for the first 30 years of my life I fully understand Protestantism. The Orthodox are very different. It take a pretty reductionist mindset to come to that conclusion or you don't understand Orthodoxy.

Catholics and Traditional Protestants are basically the same to us. Whacky Protestant is a whole another thing all together and are not identifiable to me as Christianity following the same Christ I know.

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I probably should have not used the term soteriology. My Orthodox friends and priest I know frequently talk theology. I misspoke. Sorry.

dermdoc said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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I have a ton of Catholic/Orthodox friends. And numerous priests. We laugh about the perceived differences in soteriology.

We all believe basically the same thing with a different emphasis on Sacraments. When anybody starts saying Catholicism is a works based salvation deal I ignore them as they have no idea what they are talking about.

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You have Orthodox Priest laugh at the "perceived differences in Soteriology"? I don't believe that is true. I assume you mean Catholic. I don't know any Orthodox Priest that would say that.

I would agree that Protestants have a really weird and inaccurate view towards Catholicism. I'm not Catholic but I hear it pretty regularly and I end up defending Catholics.

As a Protestant for the first 30 years of my life I fully understand Protestantism. The Orthodox are very different. It take a pretty reductionist mindset to come to that conclusion or you don't understand Orthodoxy.

Catholics and Traditional Protestants are basically the same to us. Whacky Protestant is a whole another thing all together and are not identifiable to me as Christianity following the same Christ I know.

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I probably should have not used the term soteriology. My Orthodox friends and priest I know frequently talk theology. I misspoke. Sorry.

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All good. I love the Orthodox Faith, Tradition and Church. I hate/fear the idea of American Christianity perverting the faith.

I probably get overly defensive.

dermdoc said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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I have a ton of Catholic/Orthodox friends. And numerous priests. We laugh about the perceived differences in soteriology.

We all believe basically the same thing with a different emphasis on Sacraments. When anybody starts saying Catholicism is a works based salvation deal I ignore them as they have no idea what they are talking about.

And when Catholics say Protestants believe all you have to do is believe in Jesus and repentance and true faith are not part of the process I turn them off also.

---

You have Orthodox Priest laugh at the "perceived differences in Soteriology"? I don't believe that is true. I assume you mean Catholic. I don't know any Orthodox Priest that would say that.

I would agree that Protestants have a really weird and inaccurate view towards Catholicism. I'm not Catholic but I hear it pretty regularly and I end up defending Catholics.

As a Protestant for the first 30 years of my life I fully understand Protestantism. The Orthodox are very different. It take a pretty reductionist mindset to come to that conclusion or you don't understand Orthodoxy.

Catholics and Traditional Protestants are basically the same to us. Whacky Protestant is a whole another thing all together and are not identifiable to me as Christianity following the same Christ I know.

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I probably should have not used the term soteriology. My Orthodox friends and priest I know frequently talk theology. I misspoke. Sorry.

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Derm, does Fr Joseph go to your meetings? He's told me he goes to local priest/minister meeting before.