Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

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In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

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I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

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Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

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I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

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If everyone will end up in eternity in heaven with God, then what's the point of coming to salvation? I'm genuinely asking this because I'm sure there is an answer. I'm guessing something along the lines of having the opportunity to gain rewards.

Also, what's the explanation for verses such as Rev 21:8?

ETA: Looked at your link and think I answered my own question: if you're saved in this life you don't go to hell at all; if you're not, you go there for a time to be refined and redeemed. So Rev 21:8 must be meaning those who aren't saved go to the lake of fire but it's only for a period of time then they will go to heaven. Is this correct?

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May I ask if everything is predestined what is the need for Jesus and the cross?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

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In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

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I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

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Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

---

I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

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If everyone will end up in eternity in heaven with God, then what's the point of coming to salvation? I'm genuinely asking this because I'm sure there is an answer. I'm guessing something along the lines of having the opportunity to gain rewards.

Also, what's the explanation for verses such as Rev 21:8?

ETA: Looked at your link and think I answered my own question: if you're saved in this life you don't go to hell at all; if you're not, you go there for a time to be refined and redeemed. So Rev 21:8 must be meaning those who aren't saved go to the lake of fire but it's only for a period of time then they will go to heaven. Is this correct?

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Correct. It is a refining fire, not a retributive punishing fire. Why would a loving God, our father, our creator, do a retributive eternal horrible punishment? Think of Jesus, who is the revelation of God to man. It just does not jive,

chuckd said:

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dermdoc said:

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Was to save us from hell?

I have searched and maybe it is me, but I can not find anytime Jesus said that. Open to learn. Thanks and Happy New Year!

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And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18

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The Greek word translated as hell here is usually translated as hades. Which is a totally different concept. Young's Literal translation uses Hades.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

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I thought the same thing but two things came to mind. First of all, I would think that the vernacular would be the same, and even though two different authors, they knew exactly which word they were using and why.

Secondly,I believe that Scripture is inspired by God. There is a reason each of those words were used in those particular instances.

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As to the vernacular, maybe, maybe not? If Matthew wrote Matthew, he was from Israel. If Paul wrote Hebrews, he was from modern day Turkey. If it was barnabus, he was from a Greek city state.

For example, we can easily say that Oklahoma and Texas should call soda the same thing, yet Oklahoma heavily uses "pop", Texas is more likely to call is "soda" or "coke". They have the same intent with a slightly different word that, if read many centuries later, could look like different things.

And I agree the scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he used human hands to do it. I don't believe he removed the human from the equation, or that anyone entered into a trance like state while writing. The Holy Spirit can protect the writing from error without having to personally write down every word of it.

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I agree. I personally think it was intentional to use kolasis rather than timoria in Matthew 25:46. And I also personally believe "of an age" is the correct interpretation of aionisis. Now how to put that into the correct interpretation is the difficult part.

Interesting article.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/12/08/the-inescapable-love-of-god-the-aionion-punishment-of-gehenna/

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Can't do a full treatment on it in 3 days, but everything I'm finding so far looks this way:

1. The evidence that universal reconciliation (in any of its forms) is definitely true is essentially 0

2. The evidence universal reconciliation COULD be true is very, very sparing.

My conclusion at this point: the furthest we can go is to pray for universal reconciliation. Gods desire is not His will. His will is not His desire. To do anything otherwise requires a monergistic overwhelming of free will, which I think is contrary to our reality. In order for that to be true, the way that we interact with the very reality God made is a lie. The choice doesn't actually exist. If He's going to make it happen, then it never could have not happened, and we were not free to choose.

But we can pray that all make that choice. For example, after each decade of the rosary, many Catholics will pray the following:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell;
lead all souls to heaven especially those who are in most need of
Your mercy.

Amen.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

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I thought the same thing but two things came to mind. First of all, I would think that the vernacular would be the same, and even though two different authors, they knew exactly which word they were using and why.

Secondly,I believe that Scripture is inspired by God. There is a reason each of those words were used in those particular instances.

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As to the vernacular, maybe, maybe not? If Matthew wrote Matthew, he was from Israel. If Paul wrote Hebrews, he was from modern day Turkey. If it was barnabus, he was from a Greek city state.

For example, we can easily say that Oklahoma and Texas should call soda the same thing, yet Oklahoma heavily uses "pop", Texas is more likely to call is "soda" or "coke". They have the same intent with a slightly different word that, if read many centuries later, could look like different things.

And I agree the scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he used human hands to do it. I don't believe he removed the human from the equation, or that anyone entered into a trance like state while writing. The Holy Spirit can protect the writing from error without having to personally write down every word of it.

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I agree. I personally think it was intentional to use kolasis rather than timoria in Matthew 25:46. And I also personally believe "of an age" is the correct interpretation of aionisis. Now how to put that into the correct interpretation is the difficult part.

Interesting article.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/12/08/the-inescapable-love-of-god-the-aionion-punishment-of-gehenna/

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Can't do a full treatment on it in 3 days, but everything I'm finding so far looks this way:

1. The evidence that universal reconciliation (in any of its forms) is definitely true is essentially 0

2. The evidence universal reconciliation COULD be true is very, very sparing.

My conclusion at this point: the furthest we can go is to pray for universal reconciliation. Gods desire is not His will. His will is not His desire. To do anything otherwise requires a monergistic overwhelming of free will, which I think is contrary to our reality. In order for that to be true, the way that we interact with the very reality God made is a lie. The choice doesn't actually exist. If He's going to make it happen, then it never could have not happened, and we were not free to choose.

But we can pray that all make that choice. For example, after each decade of the rosary, many Catholics will pray the following:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell;
lead all souls to heaven especially those who are in most need of
Your mercy.

Amen.

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I disagree about the evidence. Here are two scholarly sources if you have got the time to read them.

I think this explains Christian Universalism well
https://www.mercyonall.org/posts/7-myths-about-universalism

And aioniois is used to describe the fires and smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah. They are not still burning,

Will review!

The Banned said:

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Will review!

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The Ramelli and Parry books are much lengthier and meatier than the link I gave to Mercy for all.

Mercy for all is Robin Parry also.

Clears up a lot of misunderstanding about Christian Universalism.

CU believes that Christ is the only way and hell is very real. The difference is that hell is refining and even retributive punishment or pruning. Not eternal conscious torment just for the hell of it. To me, that is not the character of God as revealed through the revelation of Jesus Christ.