Was to save us from hell?

I have searched and maybe it is me, but I can not find anytime Jesus said that. Open to learn. Thanks and Happy New Year!

Luke 19:9 ?
" 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

UTExan said:

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Luke 19:9 ?
" 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

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Came to chime in with Luke 19:10

"6 And Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and laid it on his son Isaac, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac spoke to his father Abraham and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" 8 Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.

9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 And Abraham reached out with his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." 13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram caught in the thicket by its horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering in the place of his son."
--Genesis 22: 6-13

God promised to Abraham a lamb to be sacrificed. On that day, a ram (not a lamb) was provided to take the place of Isaac.

Subsequently, John the Baptist:

"6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light."
--John 1:6-8

John upon seeing Christ while baptising people declared:

"29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, 'After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me." --John 1:29-30.

Man's original covenant with God was destroyed by Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. God's covenant with Abraham, given due to his obedience, was to protect his family, the chosen people, and allows them to prosper along with the promise of a lamb to be sacrificed to conquer original sin. Jesus is the Lamb of God that was promised whose sacrifice for us re-establishes our relationship with God in a "New and everlasting Covenant"

"20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup, which is poured out for you, is the new covenant in My blood." --Luke 20:22

"24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many."
-- Mark 14:24


This new covenant was prophesized in Jeremiah 31: 31-34:

"31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. 33 "For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord: "I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember."

Jesus came to be the sacrificial lamb. The pouring out of His blood during the Passion, crucifixion, death, and resurrection conquers sin and death and re-establishes our connection to God. The new covenant allows for us the opportunity to be freed from original sin and promises eternal life for those who maintain faith.

"25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies,"
-- John 11:25

TLDR, I think the Paul Harvey has the best insight:

Pro Sandy said:

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He came for so much more than saving from hell. If that is all we focus on, we've missed the good news that he has come to give us abundant life, to reconcile us to God, and to restore what sin destroyed.

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Thanks for that. I agree.

I remember growing up in the church it seemed as if it was all about being saved from hell. Very fear based.

It is so much better than that.

The alternative being becoming more like Satan which will culminate in a living hell.

Matthew 25?

Mark 9:42-48

Luke 16:19-31

Jesus spoke in parables of eternal separation…torment…agony in this fire…

Seems like he's teaching us to avoid the things that lead to such a place, by following Him

"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

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In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

dermdoc said:

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UTExan said:

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Luke 19:9 ?
" 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

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I look at salvation totally different than I used to. To me, it is an ongoing process of becoming more Christ like. Not just a one time moment that saved me from hell.

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As a younger man, I used to think the "eternal life" in John 3:16 was something to look forward to after death. I was overjoyed to learn that same eternal life is mine in the present, not just the future!

dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

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In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

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I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

GasPasser97 said:

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Luke 16:19-31

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You beat me to it by a long shot. I like this one the most because the rich man doesn't ever ask to leave his punishment. He knows the punishment is his to have and, while he asks for a minor reprieve, he never even requests that it end.

This is a great exposition from St John Crystosom. It's all good, and I don't recommend skipping any, put #11 does a great job of giving credence to the idea that "eternal" really does mean forever.

https://thedivinelamp.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/march-24-st-john-chrysostoms-first-discourse-on-the-parable-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

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In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

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I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

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Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

---

In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

---

I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

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Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

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I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

---

In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

---

I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

---

Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

---

I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

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If everyone will end up in eternity in heaven with God, then what's the point of coming to salvation? I'm genuinely asking this because I'm sure there is an answer. I'm guessing something along the lines of having the opportunity to gain rewards.

Also, what's the explanation for verses such as Rev 21:8?

ETA: Looked at your link and think I answered my own question: if you're saved in this life you don't go to hell at all; if you're not, you go there for a time to be refined and redeemed. So Rev 21:8 must be meaning those who aren't saved go to the lake of fire but it's only for a period of time then they will go to heaven. Is this correct?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

---

In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

---

I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

---

Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

---

I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

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If everyone will end up in eternity in heaven with God, then what's the point of coming to salvation? I'm genuinely asking this because I'm sure there is an answer. I'm guessing something along the lines of having the opportunity to gain rewards.

Also, what's the explanation for verses such as Rev 21:8?

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From my readings, we do not end up in heaven with God. God comes down to earth which will be completely restored. There will be a new Jerusalem where we will be in the presence of God and have new resurrected bodies. No death, no cancer, no sins. And this will happen when Christ returns.

Before Christ's returns there are basically 2 schools of serious theological thought. We are in the grave with no conscious thoughts. Kind of like a long nice sleep.

Or we are in Hades (Sheol) in an intermediate state awaiting Christ's return and judgement.

Some say those in Christ in the intermediate state will be a state of bliss while the damned will be outside the presence of God.

Scripturally there is no judgement until Christ returns.

And I really think you would enjoy the link. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment. Christian Universalism is very misunderstood as some think it means "all roads lead to God" or that there is no punishment.

As I have stated, I am leaning more towards God allowing our free will to allow us to choose not to be in the presence of God. This is what CS Lewis believed and is illustrated nicely in the Great Divorce.

And it is pretty clear to me Scripturally, that the point of salvation is an ongoing process of us becoming more Christ like. Theosis or sanctification if you will

From my reading, it is not about escaping "hell". Salvation is about living a more abundant, free, joyful life. No matter what happens in this brief, temporal life. And sin brings about the opposite of that. Fear, anxiety, relationship problems, addictions, etc.

If that was the case, why was escaping hell not boldly preached in the New Testament? You would think that would have been in every sermon, letter, account, etc. as that would obviously be the most important thing.

As I have posted, Jesus, to my knowledge, never actually stated that. Neither did Paul who ever mentioned "hell" at all.

And no mention in the OT (except in what I consider not very accurate translations).

It just seem odd that there was not more emphasis placed on "hell".

And Paul clearly stated the wages of sin is death. Not "hell".

Jesus came for two reasons to save us from our sins (which causes us to have a self created "hell") and by conquering sin, whose wages are death, gives all mankind eternal life.

It seems your main point here is concerning the American/western idea of hell being a physical place of torment / eternal punishment. This idea is made worse by the cultural view of hell as being a place where "the devil" resides and rules with his demons. For most Americans (including myself for a long time) - this is what I thought I was saved from!

Most people are shocked when they read the scriptures for themselves and find nothing of that sort.

Yes there is fire, torment, punishment even. But nothing like the "hell" that so many of us were taught to fear when we were young.

MisterJones said:

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It seems your main point here is concerning the American/western idea of hell being a physical place of torment / eternal punishment. This idea is made worse by the cultural view of hell as being a place where "the devil" resides and rules with his demons. For most Americans (including myself for a long time) - this is what I thought I was saved from!

Most people are shocked when they read the scriptures for themselves and find nothing of that sort.

Yes there is fire, torment, punishment even. But nothing like the "hell" that so many of us were taught to fear when we were young.

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Yep. Salvation means a totally different thing to me now than what I was taught in Sunday School.

"Hell" is rejecting God. And since God is the Good, it is rejecting everything good.

First thing that came to mind was Jn 18:37

" Pilate therefore said unto Him, "Art thou a king then?" Jesus answered, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice."

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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GasPasser97 said:

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"The worms that eat them do not die and the fire is not quenched."

---

In my opinion, He was talking about dead bodies after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

It is very hard to find the Western concept of "hell" in any Scripture.

---

I think we've talked about this before, but the word used for eternal in reference to punishment "anionion" is the same word used for eternal reward. I think we have to logically deduce that either both are "for an age" or both are "forever".

This is where there is question over what torment means. Is it God's active torturing? Is it a state that God allows people to enter into with no escape? Is it a place that God allows people to enter into that they do not want to escape? Luke 16:19-31 is interesting here.

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Lots of conjecture on this. It is pretty clear from the Greek that the word means of an age and not eternal (Young's Literal Translation and other translations faithful to the original Greek). The interesting thing is that kolasis is used instead of timoria.

Kolasis means pruning or corrective punishment while timoria means retributive punishment.

I firmly believe this has been wildly misinterpreted over the years.

---

I'll have to research kolasis vs timoria, but you skipped past anionion being used for eternal life. If we're 100% certain that it means "of an age", then how can we be sure that eternal reward is actually eternal? If I grant you an "age" of punishment, how can you not then grant an "age" of reward?

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I honestly do not know. All I know is from my readings that it means of an age in Greek unless describing God. Then it means eternal. The more true to the Greek translations like Young's Literal Translation do not translate it as eternal.

I think you will enjoy researching kolasis vs timoria.

All I can encourage you to do is research it and come to your own conclusion. Just Google kolasis.

https://thegoodnessofgod.com/four-reasons-the-early-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/

And in this link, the author comes to the same place I have posted about. Scripture clearly states that God desires to save all men but does God allow man's free will to overcome God's desire?

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Just scratching the surface on this, but an update.

I haven't found a satisfactory answer for why anionion can mean an age for punishment but not an age for eternal life. Still working on this one. It almost seems like the logical conclusion that they will be "kolasis-ed" eternally. The punishment is for their good (maybe showing them the reality of God's existence is a good even if it's painful???) but it still lasts forever. Idk. Working on it.

But also found the Bible does use timoria (at least according the Greek translations sites I was using) but it's not in reference to eternal. Hebrews 10:29. So there is the active punishment piece.

So then I went to all the places where eternal punishment is used and it's only once in Matthew 25. The idea of a "pruning for an age" is only found where "life for an age" must be the logical follow. The other times kolasis is used is not an eternal setting, much like the one time timoria is used.

More digging to do, but glad you brought this up.

ETA: the argument that many Christians held to some type of universalism is defeated by the reality that many Christians held to Arianism. Many Christians doing or believing something can be indicative of its truth, but until the Church weighs in on it, whether or not it is truth is not known.

Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

And if you really want to get confused, try to figure out whether the Fifth Council ever ever actually condemned Christian Universalism as a heresy.

The involvement of Justinian is controversial also. And the fact that the Pope originally refused to come but later relented. Fascinating stuff.

dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

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I thought the same thing but two things came to mind. First of all, I would think that the vernacular would be the same, and even though two different authors, they knew exactly which word they were using and why.

Secondly,I believe that Scripture is inspired by God. There is a reason each of those words were used in those particular instances.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

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I thought the same thing but two things came to mind. First of all, I would think that the vernacular would be the same, and even though two different authors, they knew exactly which word they were using and why.

Secondly,I believe that Scripture is inspired by God. There is a reason each of those words were used in those particular instances.

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As to the vernacular, maybe, maybe not? If Matthew wrote Matthew, he was from Israel. If Paul wrote Hebrews, he was from modern day Turkey. If it was barnabus, he was from a Greek city state.

For example, we can easily say that Oklahoma and Texas should call soda the same thing, yet Oklahoma heavily uses "pop", Texas is more likely to call is "soda" or "coke". They have the same intent with a slightly different word that, if read many centuries later, could look like different things.

And I agree the scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he used human hands to do it. I don't believe he removed the human from the equation, or that anyone entered into a trance like state while writing. The Holy Spirit can protect the writing from error without having to personally write down every word of it.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Thanks for the Hebrews 10 29 link. It sounds in that instance, the author is talking more about a specific type of sin, almost like the unforgivable sin. Someone who almost declares war on God and His goodness which brings about a particular punishment.

But if timoria is used there, it could have been used in Matthew 25 and it wasn't. Which seems, to me at least, the punishment will be different in some cases.And may be for different purposes.

I will continue to research. Thank you.

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Agree more research on the side too, but until a thought is Matthew and hebrews don't have the same author.

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I thought the same thing but two things came to mind. First of all, I would think that the vernacular would be the same, and even though two different authors, they knew exactly which word they were using and why.

Secondly,I believe that Scripture is inspired by God. There is a reason each of those words were used in those particular instances.

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As to the vernacular, maybe, maybe not? If Matthew wrote Matthew, he was from Israel. If Paul wrote Hebrews, he was from modern day Turkey. If it was barnabus, he was from a Greek city state.

For example, we can easily say that Oklahoma and Texas should call soda the same thing, yet Oklahoma heavily uses "pop", Texas is more likely to call is "soda" or "coke". They have the same intent with a slightly different word that, if read many centuries later, could look like different things.

And I agree the scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but he used human hands to do it. I don't believe he removed the human from the equation, or that anyone entered into a trance like state while writing. The Holy Spirit can protect the writing from error without having to personally write down every word of it.

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I agree. I personally think it was intentional to use kolasis rather than timoria in Matthew 25:46. And I also personally believe "of an age" is the correct interpretation of aionisis. Now how to put that into the correct interpretation is the difficult part.

Interesting article.
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2022/12/08/the-inescapable-love-of-god-the-aionion-punishment-of-gehenna/

dermdoc said:

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Was to save us from hell?

I have searched and maybe it is me, but I can not find anytime Jesus said that. Open to learn. Thanks and Happy New Year!

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And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18