Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

Paul saw the light (literally and figuratively), taken to see Heaven and yet he still desired to sin. He was the greatest sinner (self proclaimed).

Your battle with sin is evidence you are in Christ.

And I am bowing out of this at the prompting of the Spirit.

We are all brothers/sisters in Christ and I do not like where this is heading.

Zobel said:

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you are stating things as fact which are at odds with scripture. and, you're using those statements to draw conclusions.

I agree St Paul was meeting those Greek pagans - he was quoting one of their poets, the line about "we are his offspring" is a quote of Epimenides and is about Zeus (!). That doesn't make it untrue, what he is saying is that we are indeed offspring, all of us, of God, the true Most High God who is NOT Zeus, and He wants us to worship Him and not the false gods.

We are all God's children - St Paul says it. It is true. The scriptures are not false.

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not everyone will inherit.

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Correct. But this does not make them not children.

Inheritance is important to understand. Esau was still Abraham's son, but he did not inherit the promises. Jacob did - the younger. And later, Esau's offspring the nation of Edom were cut off, because they were not loyal to the Heir, which was the offspring of Israel - and not just that, but only Judah, not the northern kingdom.

So inheritance flows to the unique heir, and it is through faithfulness to the heir that all are blessed. Christ Jesus is the heir of the promises of Abraham as the unique seed, and the heir to all creation as the unique Son of God, and IF we share in His sufferings and are faithful to Him, He will share that inheritance with us.

There is no scriptural basis that God does not love all mankind. Quite the contrary, God moved to save us before we loved Him, while we were at enmity with Him. His love was revealed precisely that He sent His Son not because we loved Him but because He loved us first to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Does God love you? He died to save you before you loved Him. And this is just as true for each and every single human being who does not love Him and is in their sins. His blood took away the sins of the world. While we were still sinners, He died for us. What makes you a better sinner than anyone else that you deny the love of God to your brothers?

this is the pernicious evil behind these kind of theologies. they tempt to judge, they tempt to make each of us proud - God loves me, I'm saved, I'm not reprobate - they tempt us to be like the Pharisee, when we should be like the Publican -- God have mercy on me a sinner!

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I don't feel that way at all - I'm immensely humbled and grateful for my salvation. I don't deserve it. I thank God every day for His sacrifice and my salvation. I pray for those who are not yet saved to be saved. I don't know why God has done things the way He has done them other than it's all ultimately for His glory.

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Are you implying a pagan can please God?

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I'm saying non-Christians can do things that God wants them to do. It doesn't save them, but they can do good things without acknowledging Jesus.

What you seem to be driving at is the total depravity doctrine. I don't agree with that, and I think the human experience proves it false.

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Yes, it is total depravity because scripture says we are not good. Apart from Jesus, no one is righteous. We can do things that have the appearance of good but because of our sinful nature we can never do true good, as God defines it. We are made in the image of God and therefore have a basic level of morality, His law is written on everyone's hearts. But, the unregenerate do not have God as the basis for their morality.

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So no hope for those that have never heard of Jesus? They are all hell bound?

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If they reject God (which they will), yes. We are all guilty of sin against God.

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How do you know they'll reject Him? They never had a chance to, and all He had to do was give them grace He gave you. He chose not to. Again, Calvinism/reformed.

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So you believe we can be sinless then; not everyone needs a savior, only those who sin.

It'a not as if God sent His son to the guiltless, then we denied Jesus and became guilty. Jesus came BECAUSE we are already guilty. No innocent person is sent to hell.

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It's theoretically possible a person could be sin free, but in practice it's utterly impossible. We have original sin and we desire bad things. For someone to actively beat that desire throughout their entire lives would be a feat greater than setting up a colony on the surface of the sun.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is that God could save these people because He is in total control of whether or not they are saved and He's leaving them out intentionally.

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I fear I'm losing your (my) point a bit but I'll say that yes, He "left them out intentionally". He shows mercy to whom He chooses to show mercy and it won't be to everyone.

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To clarify the point I'm trying to make based on your premise in my first bullet:

- we can't do good unless we first know Jesus
- billions of people have never had the opportunity to do so
- God is all powerful and could have done so
- therefore God did not want to do so and "left them out intentionally"

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I generally do not disagree with this summarization. I would say:
- we can't ultimately do good until we are regenerated
- Some (I do not know how many) people will remain unregenerated
- God is all powerful and could regenerate every heart
- But He chose not to

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Lead with that and the conversion rate would be 0% or close to it.

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The conversion rate will be whatever God wills it to be.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

i agree with this. image and likeness. those who image the Father are truly His sons.

the problem is presuming to separate who is and isn't. not our lane. only God knows.

Then can I ask that y'all lead with that in any future conversion efforts instead of telling people God loves everyone and all you have to do is follow Him, implying choice that they don't actually have? It would be more accurate for you to say "God has chosen a pre-determined amount of people. You may or may not be one of them. Want to come to church?"

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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I am not sure. God simply wants his children to trust and obey. Our sinful actions are not going to thwart his plans. We have the freedom to obey or rebel. We are not going to be perfect, but over the course of our regenerated lives, we should have a trajectory towards obedience. God will use our brokenness to bring about our good as it promises in Romans 8.

The Banned said:

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Then can I ask that y'all lead with that in any future conversion efforts instead of telling people God loves everyone and all you have to do is follow Him, implying choice that they don't actually have? It would be more accurate for you to say "God has chosen a pre-determined amount of people. You may or may not be one of them. Want to come to church?"

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Haha, that is fair. This will explain it better than I can.

https://www.ligonier.org/posts/biblical-say-god-loves-everyone?srsltid=AfmBOor4k2gckOpzhaak0sr5rGALc4iOdvdJ_7drl44nESCsAArx3olk

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"Often I hear the phrase 'God loves you' proclaimed to a group of people which may include both Christians and non-Christians. Is this biblical to say that phrase to just anyone?"

When we look at the concept of the love of God in Scripture, we see distinctions that have to be made. Historically and theologically we distinguish among three types of divine love. There is the love of benevolence, where God has a kind spirit to the whole world and His benevolent will, His benevolent love falls on everybody. But there's also the sense in which in the Bible the love of God is defined in terms of God's beneficence, that is that's not just simply what His attitude is towards the world but how He displays that goodness universallythe rain falls upon the just as well as on the unjust. And so that universal dimension of the love of God is manifest but usually when we're talking about the love of God in popular language, what we're really talking about is what we call God's love of complacency. And that term, the love of complacency, is not used in the way in which we use the term complacency in our age, in our culture. Our term of complacency means smugness, self-satisfaction, that sort of thing.

But rather when the Scriptures indicate the love of complacency, it's that special love that God has for His Son, and all of those who are in His Son, and who are adopted into His family. And if we talk about the love of God in His terms of the love of complacency and talk about it universally, that's blasphemy because God does not love the whole world in the love of complacency. In fact, the Scriptures tell us that there are many ways in which God is at enmity with the world. He hates the world, He hates those who are swift to shed blood, and we have to take that into account. When I hear preachers stand up and say that 'God loves everybody unconditionally,' I want to scream and say, 'Wait a minute. Then why does He call us to repent? Why does He call us to come to the cross? Why does He call us to come to Christ?' If God loves everybody unconditionally, then you can do whatever you want and believe whatever you think. And it's just not true that God loves us unconditionally. He's placed an absolute condition by which He requiresHe doesn't just invite people to come to His SonHe commands all men everywhere to repent of their sins and to come to Christ. And if you want to enjoy the love of complacency you have to be in Christ.

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Zobel said:

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i agree with this. image and likeness. those who image the Father are truly His sons.

the problem is presuming to separate who is and isn't. not our lane. only God knows.

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I agree and I haven't done that here nor do I in my personal life. God is the only one who truly knows a person's heart.

The Banned said:

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Then can I ask that y'all lead with that in any future conversion efforts instead of telling people God loves everyone and all you have to do is follow Him, implying choice that they don't actually have? It would be more accurate for you to say "God has chosen a pre-determined amount of people. You may or may not be one of them. Want to come to church?"

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I don't think you have to do either. People need to know they are a sinner in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus Christ. That's what you lead with and focus on.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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And I am bowing out of this at the prompting of the Spirit.

We are all brothers/sisters in Christ and I do not like where this is heading.

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On the contrary, I'm finding this very fruitful. This theology really is where faith alone taken to its fullest gets you. If we have ANY hand in choosing God, we did a work in order to receive salvation. So we must not have chosen Him.

I get many Protestant denominations make stop short of this ultimate end of faith alone but maybe they shouldn't?

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Agree. Genuinely is a time that challenges me, and I don't think my desire is to debate for the sake of debating.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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Sometimes God is pleased to permit certain acts; He directs them for His own glory.

Just my commentary, but as a parent, I can remember times where I let my child exercise his own free will in a way that is not obedient to something I have said. Now, I will control these moments and not let it become a serious or grave situation, but I absolutely will let him fail so that there is a teachable moment that eventually gets the point across in a more robust way.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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I am not sure. God simply wants his children to trust and obey. Our sinful actions are not going to thwart his plans. We have the freedom to obey or rebel. We are not going to be perfect, but over the course of our regenerated lives, we should have a trajectory towards obedience. God will use our brokenness to bring about our good as it promises in Romans 8.

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This is where we get nice and circular:

We can't have chosen God because that is a work. So God must have chosen us. Now that we are chosen, we must choose to obey Him in return. If we don't choose to obey Him, we would lose our salvation. But we can't lose salvation under once saved always saved, so God must only pick people that he knows will obey Him. So you are chosen because of your willingness to do good works. But that's "works based salvation". He's choosing you for your goodness.

The only other option is the limited free will of Calvinism. He is making us do the good. If we fail to do the good, it's because He didn't stop us from doing the bad. So in some form or fashion, God wants that sin to happen.

I guess in a way he "making us do good" in that God gave us a new heart in our regeneration. And with this new heart that now has a desire for God, we will enter into that synergistic journey of sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I guess in a way he "making us do good" in that God gave us a new heart in our regeneration. And with this new heart that now has a desire for God, we will enter into that synergistic journey of sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

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Being a Christian means I sin less and it hurts me more when I do.

I don't want to go back to my old life. I want to do better. The Word can change lives. All credit to God.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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I am not sure. God simply wants his children to trust and obey. Our sinful actions are not going to thwart his plans. We have the freedom to obey or rebel. We are not going to be perfect, but over the course of our regenerated lives, we should have a trajectory towards obedience. God will use our brokenness to bring about our good as it promises in Romans 8.

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This is where we get nice and circular:

We can't have chosen God because that is a work. So God must have chosen us. Now that we are chosen, we must choose to obey Him in return. If we don't choose to obey Him, we would lose our salvation. But we can't lose salvation under once saved always saved, so God must only pick people that he knows will obey Him. So you are chosen because of your willingness to do good works. But that's "works based salvation". He's choosing you for your goodness.

The only other option is the limited free will of Calvinism. He is making us do the good. If we fail to do the good, it's because He didn't stop us from doing the bad. So in some form or fashion, God wants that sin to happen.

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I think this is where either you misunderstand or the word "choose" does us a disservice (much like offspring/children).

It's all about desire. We make choices everyday continually, over and over, and we always choose what we desire the most. We never lose our responsibility to choose the Lord but He must first change our hearts so that we desire to do so. Now that we have the desire to please Christ, will that desire win out 100% of the time? Unfortunately, no it will not. Sometimes we desire to sin more and thus will choose sin. That is why we will never be through grieving our sins and repenting. This is where sanctification comes in, which is a journey. As we work through our salvation hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirt, we will become more like Him, winning less and grieving ever more deeply when we do.

Now, do you want to call this choice to believe in, love, honor, and obey God a work and then claim that is works-based salvation? Obviously there again we have the issue of different definitions. When I hear the term "works-based salvation" I'm thinking of someone racking up enough points in the good deeds column to earn their salvation, which I do not believe to be biblical nor do I believe that choosing to follow God falls into this category.

When I think of "works" I'm thinking of the fruit we bear after we have come to salvation; our works are an outpouring of our faith. We don't do good works to BE saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

jrico2727 said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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AGC said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Something as simple as justification by faith alone is not agreed upon and has been the main point on tension for centuries. This is nothing new.

Again, to get to the OP, I don't come across many Jewish people. And by that I mean none. Other than listening to Ben Shapiro's podcast occasionally. Just not many living in rural Texas.

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The Catholic Church has said that one can believe they are "saved by faith alone" as long as they do not mean mere intellectual assent.

I think most Protestant agree that you can say you believe and that you are saved all day long, but if your actions are consistently and unapologetically unbiblical, you aren't a Christian. That's the "intellectual" faith alone Catholics reject.

Now if you say you are saved by faith in Jesus and because of that faith you are obliged to act in accordance with His will, then all we're doing is using different terms

There are more disagreements to parse out after that, but it's only a big disagreement for most Protestants because we're speaking past each other.

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And once again, if I may be so bold as to add, the book of life doesn't list your doctrines but your deeds.

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What would be the deeds written down for the thief on the cross?

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He is the exception not the rule. We don't put a limit on God but he also gave us the example of being baptized, living a life of virtue, loving neighbor and self sacrifice. He told us to be perfect as the father in heaven is perfect.
The thief had what would be called a baptism in blood, he found his faith at the last second and took responsibility for his sins and came to the Lord with a contrite heart, something he will not spurn. So I don't think it is fair to argue from a singular exception.

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That sounds like reconcilation.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I guess in a way he "making us do good" in that God gave us a new heart in our regeneration. And with this new heart that now has a desire for God, we will enter into that synergistic journey of sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

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A synergistic journey is exactly what Catholics believe. Would you agree that most Protestants think catholics believe in "works based" salvation?

And the thing about a synergistic journey is it requires our will. We have to be actively choosing God, meaning He did not limit free will, which knocks against Calvinist/reformed doctrine.

This should also mean we can choose to fall away, yet most (maybe all?) Protestants believe in once saved, always saved. A synergistic journey and once saved, always saved don't go together unless you take the extreme position that once you're saved it literally doesn't matter what kind of life you live after. I remember that gaining popularity in the 2000s to early 10s, but thankfully seems to have fallen out of favor.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I guess in a way he "making us do good" in that God gave us a new heart in our regeneration. And with this new heart that now has a desire for God, we will enter into that synergistic journey of sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

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A synergistic journey is exactly what Catholics believe. Would you agree that most Protestants think catholics believe in "works based" salvation?

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That would be my assumption based on my understanding, but I am open to hearing otherwise. And I realize not all catholics are the same, just as not all protestants are the same.

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And the thing about a synergistic journey is it requires our will. We have to be actively choosing God, meaning He did not limit free will, which knocks against Calvinist/reformed doctrine.

This should also mean we can choose to fall away, yet most (maybe all?) Protestants believe in once saved, always saved. A synergistic journey and once saved, always saved don't go together unless you take the extreme position that once you're saved it literally doesn't matter what kind of life you live after. I remember that gaining popularity in the 2000s to early 10s, but thankfully seems to have fallen out of favor.

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Again, the difference here is regeneration. Once a believer is regenerate, their new heart allows an alignment to the things of God. Our will is essentially changed, so it is not possible to "fall away." And our free will, while still capable of sin, is not going to take us so far away from God that we would no longer be redeemed.

You have to talk TULIP as one big idea or doctrine (in my opinion) versus just trying to take it piece by piece. It all works together.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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I am not sure. God simply wants his children to trust and obey. Our sinful actions are not going to thwart his plans. We have the freedom to obey or rebel. We are not going to be perfect, but over the course of our regenerated lives, we should have a trajectory towards obedience. God will use our brokenness to bring about our good as it promises in Romans 8.

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This is where we get nice and circular:

We can't have chosen God because that is a work. So God must have chosen us. Now that we are chosen, we must choose to obey Him in return. If we don't choose to obey Him, we would lose our salvation. But we can't lose salvation under once saved always saved, so God must only pick people that he knows will obey Him. So you are chosen because of your willingness to do good works. But that's "works based salvation". He's choosing you for your goodness.

The only other option is the limited free will of Calvinism. He is making us do the good. If we fail to do the good, it's because He didn't stop us from doing the bad. So in some form or fashion, God wants that sin to happen.

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I think this is where either you misunderstand or the word "choose" does us a disservice (much like offspring/children).

It's all about desire. We make choices everyday continually, over and over, and we always choose what we desire the most. We never lose our responsibility to choose the Lord but He must first change our hearts so that we desire to do so. Now that we have the desire to please Christ, will that desire win out 100% of the time? Unfortunately, no it will not. Sometimes we desire to sin more and thus will choose sin. That is why we will never be through grieving our sins and repenting. This is where sanctification comes in, which is a journey. As we work through our salvation hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirt, we will become more like Him, winning less and grieving ever more deeply when we do.

Now, do you want to call this choice to believe in, love, honor, and obey God a work and then claim that is works-based salvation? Obviously there again we have the issue of different definitions. When I hear the term "works-based salvation" I'm thinking of someone racking up enough points in the good deeds column to earn their salvation, which I do not believe to be biblical nor do I believe that choosing to follow God falls into this category.

When I think of "works" I'm thinking of the fruit we bear after we have come to salvation; our works are an outpouring of our faith. We don't do good works to BE saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

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Similar to what I said to 10, your second paragraph describes the Catholic faith. That very same belief gets Catholics labeled works based.

This is because we believe we can lose our salvation, and most Protestants believe in once saved, always saved. So I would ask you: if we're supposed to be doing those good things and some people don't/stop, why? Because people deluded themselves? Because God didn't actually pick them? Ok, then God causes you to do the good things, and not them. Your compliance is caused by Him, so we're back to all of that good fruit being caused by God, and all of your sin being intentionally allowed by God, meaning God wants people to sin.

Or, in my opinion, you can abandon once saved, always saved, embrace that God allows people to choose Him and choose to fall away again in the future should they so choose, and that our salvation requires our efforts in some capacity. Reformed doctrine has it wrong. Do that and the equation is solved. It doesn't mean we "earn" it. But we definitely can lose it.

"once you're saved it literally doesn't matter what kind of life you live after"

I can hear Paul say "May it never be"

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I guess in a way he "making us do good" in that God gave us a new heart in our regeneration. And with this new heart that now has a desire for God, we will enter into that synergistic journey of sanctification and pursuit of holiness.

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A synergistic journey is exactly what Catholics believe. Would you agree that most Protestants think catholics believe in "works based" salvation?

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That would be my assumption based on my understanding, but I am open to hearing otherwise. And I realize not all catholics are the same, just as not all protestants are the same.

Quote:

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And the thing about a synergistic journey is it requires our will. We have to be actively choosing God, meaning He did not limit free will, which knocks against Calvinist/reformed doctrine.

This should also mean we can choose to fall away, yet most (maybe all?) Protestants believe in once saved, always saved. A synergistic journey and once saved, always saved don't go together unless you take the extreme position that once you're saved it literally doesn't matter what kind of life you live after. I remember that gaining popularity in the 2000s to early 10s, but thankfully seems to have fallen out of favor.

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Again, the difference here is regeneration. Once a believer is regenerate, their new heart allows an alignment to the things of God. Our will is essentially changed, so it is not possible to "fall away." And our free will, while still capable of sin, is not going to take us so far away from God that we would no longer be redeemed.

You have to talk TULIP as one big idea or doctrine (in my opinion) versus just trying to take it piece by piece. It all works together.

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This still ends up back at the prior problem I presented. God changed you to want to do His will. Why does that not mean that every time you sinned, it's because God intentionally did not give you what you needed to not sin? I don't see how your framework doesn't show that God isn't merely allowing the sin but wants that sin to happen because He can fix it with no issue.

This works if you grant true free will in which we can choose God or not. But in the TULIP framework, it doesn't work.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Just my commentary, but as a parent, I can remember times where I let my child exercise his own free will in a way that is not obedient to something I have said. Now, I will control these moments and not let it become a serious or grave situation, but I absolutely will let him fail so that there is a teachable moment that eventually gets the point across in a more robust way.

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The difference here is that you don't have the power to wipe away those personality defects with a snap of your fingers like God does. You could make your child a perfect person with no sinful qualities whatsoever because you have not given him true free will. So if you had that power and still let your child sin, it's only because you want a child that sins.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

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So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

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Sometimes God is pleased to permit certain acts; He directs them for His own glory.

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He is pleased to let me sin… so he wants me to sin, yes?

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Can he override? Sure. Why doesn't he? I don't know. His greater purpose will be accomplished no matter what you or I choose to do.

---

So I want to commit a sin. God can make me stop. God doesn't want to make me stop…

How is this not God wanting us to sin? Am I missing something?

---

I am not sure. God simply wants his children to trust and obey. Our sinful actions are not going to thwart his plans. We have the freedom to obey or rebel. We are not going to be perfect, but over the course of our regenerated lives, we should have a trajectory towards obedience. God will use our brokenness to bring about our good as it promises in Romans 8.

---

This is where we get nice and circular:

We can't have chosen God because that is a work. So God must have chosen us. Now that we are chosen, we must choose to obey Him in return. If we don't choose to obey Him, we would lose our salvation. But we can't lose salvation under once saved always saved, so God must only pick people that he knows will obey Him. So you are chosen because of your willingness to do good works. But that's "works based salvation". He's choosing you for your goodness.

The only other option is the limited free will of Calvinism. He is making us do the good. If we fail to do the good, it's because He didn't stop us from doing the bad. So in some form or fashion, God wants that sin to happen.

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I think this is where either you misunderstand or the word "choose" does us a disservice (much like offspring/children).

It's all about desire. We make choices everyday continually, over and over, and we always choose what we desire the most. We never lose our responsibility to choose the Lord but He must first change our hearts so that we desire to do so. Now that we have the desire to please Christ, will that desire win out 100% of the time? Unfortunately, no it will not. Sometimes we desire to sin more and thus will choose sin. That is why we will never be through grieving our sins and repenting. This is where sanctification comes in, which is a journey. As we work through our salvation hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirt, we will become more like Him, winning less and grieving ever more deeply when we do.

Now, do you want to call this choice to believe in, love, honor, and obey God a work and then claim that is works-based salvation? Obviously there again we have the issue of different definitions. When I hear the term "works-based salvation" I'm thinking of someone racking up enough points in the good deeds column to earn their salvation, which I do not believe to be biblical nor do I believe that choosing to follow God falls into this category.

When I think of "works" I'm thinking of the fruit we bear after we have come to salvation; our works are an outpouring of our faith. We don't do good works to BE saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

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Similar to what I said to 10, your second paragraph describes the Catholic faith. That very same belief gets Catholics labeled works based.

This is because we believe we can lose our salvation, and most Protestants believe in once saved, always saved. So I would ask you: if we're supposed to be doing those good things and some people don't/stop, why? Because people deluded themselves? Because God didn't actually pick them? Ok, then God causes you to do the good things, and not them. Your compliance is caused by Him, so we're back to all of that good fruit being caused by God, and all of your sin being intentionally allowed by God, meaning God wants people to sin.

Or, in my opinion, you can abandon once saved, always saved, embrace that God allows people to choose Him and choose to fall away again in the future should they so choose, and that our salvation requires our efforts in some capacity. Reformed doctrine has it wrong. Do that and the equation is solved. It doesn't mean we "earn" it. But we definitely can lose it.

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There is too much compelling scripture for me to believe we can lose our salvation. If God gave me a new heart of flesh, it's not going to turn back to a heart of stone.

You have to step away from the notion that people are robots in Calvinistic doctrine. It's all about desire. We choose what we desire. Before regeneration we desire sin, we are slaves to it, and therefore freely choose sin. When we are given new hearts, we desire the Lord, and freely choose to please Him. We aren't being unwilling forced to make these decisions. If we were, we'd never sin again. It doesn't please God when we sin but He allows it and will use it according to His purpose.

I'm sure you already know this but the answer to the questions about those who have "fallen away" was they were never truly regenerate to begin with.

So it's an unknowable condition until judgment. Seems useful.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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When I hear the term "works-based salvation" I'm thinking of someone racking up enough points in the good deeds column to earn their salvation, which I do not believe to be biblical nor do I believe that choosing to follow God falls into this category.

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I am not aware of any Christian tradition which teaches this. Seems like a straw man.

Quote:

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When I think of "works" I'm thinking of the fruit we bear after we have come to salvation; our works are an outpouring of our faith. We don't do good works to BE saved, we do them BECAUSE we are saved.

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I would say we do them because they save us. St Paul speaks of salvation in past present and future tense. So should we. Our participation in grace is an ongoing part of salvation.

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Maybe none do, but that's the assumption/(mis)understanding.

Actually, your next comment supports it - "I say we do them because they save us."