AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

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I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

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It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

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I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

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Can you expand on this? I believe I have a totally free will by my definition of it, but maybe you see free will differently

I thoroughly enjoy your posts and still pray for you and your pastor.

Thanks! I need to stay in your good graces in case I need some derm/skin opinions on some recent stuff! Leviticus is telling me I need to leave my house for 7 days.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Thanks! I need to stay in your good graces in case I need some derm/skin opinions on some recent stuff! Leviticus is telling me I need to leave my house for 7 days.

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Yeah I guess I would have had to be a priest back then.

https://images.app.goo.gl/yHBhbFTJZg72jCH97

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

---

So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?

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Yes

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So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?

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Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?

---

Who is in "hell"? Nobody until judgement day in your theology, correct?

Scripture states clearly that nobody is thrown into the lake of fire until Judgement Day, correct?

It is fascinating to me that you agree Scripture states clearly that we are judged on our deeds. Evil or good. That is not Evangelical theology at all. And I agree with you. As does Matthew 25 46.

Quote:

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I don't care what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe Jesus is the only way unto salvation, we've got a long way to go.

The gospel is God's power for salvation. (Romans 1:16)

Jesus is not A way, He is THE way. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

We are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus. If you can't genuinely understand and agree with that message…

---

Jesus is the only way to salvation and eternal life. But that doesn't necessarily mean that hearing the Gospel is the only way to salvation, or saying the Lord's prayer, or joining a certain church.

[random analogy warning. skip below if you want to get right to the point]

As an analogy, imagine a guy named Buzz has the only rocket company in the entire world, and the world is ending. People only survivie by getting into space. Rockets are the only way to get from Earth to space. No one else has any rockets, and Buzz lets anyone who shows up at the launch site get on the rocket You don't need to be able to build or design a rocket, though you could help out Buzz if you learn that stuff. You don't need o know tBuzz's awesome life story or the history of his company, but that would definitely help spread publicity that Buzz is shooting people into space and help instruct people how to get to launch sites.

Now in this scenario anyone can ask you how someone gets to space, and the answer will always be "Buzz launches you into space". But someone may say "You need to drive 1000 miles to the nearest launch site, get in line, and climb in the rocket". That's also a correct answer, but clearly driving 1000 miles, getting in line, and climibing in a rocket doesn't get someone into space. Other's may say, "learn to build or pilot rockets so you can help out Buzz" or "you need to help spread Buzz's story to everyone you can so that everyone knows about the free rocket trips to space". Those are surely great things to do. No one would fault you, but they're not mandatory.

Everytime I see or hear statements like I quoted above, like "Jesus is the only way to salvation" as an argument against non-Christians being saved, all I think is "Buzz is the only way to space". It's like someone answering, "How does someone get to space?" and someoe saying, "well you find a rocket, get in line, and then climb in the rocket". Then another person comes along and says "that's wrong! Buzz is the only way to space!". That's not wrong, but it's annoying to hear over and over. Buzz made the impossible possible just like Jesus made the impossible possible.

[the actual point starts here]

No one gets eternal life without Jesus, because it is flat out impossible. No one can grant themselves eternal life. Only someone who already has eternal life and can give the same to others can do that, and God is the only one on that list. However, a person doesn't need to know anything about Jesus, how the Trinity works, or church history to be saved. A person doesn't need to spread the Gospel to be saved. A person just has to love God by always trying to do the right thing, and love their fellow man, especially the lowest among us. If you do that, then Jesus is the path to eternal life. Jesus will see your motivation, effort, and genuine love, and then Jesus will do all the work. Doesn't matter if you're a person with a severe mental disorder or a pre-Colombian American or a alien halfway across the universe (if any exist). Is it better to know the Gospel, know theology, go to church, and evangelize? Of course, most good people will want to participate and help others when given such a great gift. But that's not the only way to show goodness and love.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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I don't care what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe Jesus is the only way unto salvation, we've got a long way to go.

The gospel is God's power for salvation. (Romans 1:16)

Jesus is not A way, He is THE way. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)

We are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus. If you can't genuinely understand and agree with that message…

---

Jesus is the only way to salvation and eternal life. But that doesn't necessarily mean that hearing the Gospel is the only way to salvation, or saying the Lord's prayer, or joining a certain church.

[random analogy warning. skip below if you want to get right to the point]

As an analogy, imagine a guy named Buzz has the only rocket company in the entire world, and the world is ending. People only survivie by getting into space. Rockets are the only way to get from Earth to space. No one else has any rockets, and Buzz lets anyone who shows up at the launch site get on the rocket You don't need to be able to build or design a rocket, though you could help out Buzz if you learn that stuff. You don't need o know tBuzz's awesome life story or the history of his company, but that would definitely help spread publicity that Buzz is shooting people into space and help instruct people how to get to launch sites.

Now in this scenario anyone can ask you how someone gets to space, and the answer will always be "Buzz launches you into space". But someone may say "You need to drive 1000 miles to the nearest launch site, get in line, and climb in the rocket". That's also a correct answer, but clearly driving 1000 miles, getting in line, and climibing in a rocket doesn't get someone into space. Other's may say, "learn to build or pilot rockets so you can help out Buzz" or "you need to help spread Buzz's story to everyone you can so that everyone knows about the free rocket trips to space". Those are surely great things to do. No one would fault you, but they're not mandatory.

Everytime I see or hear statements like I quoted above, like "Jesus is the only way to salvation" as an argument against non-Christians being saved, all I think is "Buzz is the only way to space". It's like someone answering, "How does someone get to space?" and someoe saying, "well you find a rocket, get in line, and then climb in the rocket". Then another person comes along and says "that's wrong! Buzz is the only way to space!". That's not wrong, but it's annoying to hear over and over. Buzz made the impossible possible just like Jesus made the impossible possible.

[the actual point starts here]

No one gets eternal life without Jesus, because it is flat out impossible. No one can grant themselves eternal life. Only someone who already has eternal life and can give the same to others can do that, and God is the only one on that list. However, a person doesn't need to know anything about Jesus, how the Trinity works, or church history to be saved. A person doesn't need to spread the Gospel to be saved. A person just has to love God by always trying to do the right thing, and love their fellow man, especially the lowest among us. If you do that, then Jesus is the path to eternal life. Jesus will see your motivation, effort, and genuine love, and then Jesus will do all the work. Doesn't matter if you're a person with a severe mental disorder or a pre-Colombian American or an alien halfway across the universe (if any exist). Is it better to know the Gospel, know theology, go to church, and evangelize? Of course, most good people will want to participate and help others when given such a great gift. But that's not the only way to show goodness and love.

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Agree. Thanks.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

---

So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?

---

Yes

---

So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?

---

Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?

---

Who is in "hell"? Nobody until judgement day in your theology, correct?

Scripture states clearly that nobody is thrown into the lake of fire until Judgement Day, correct?

It is fascinating to me that you agree Scripture states clearly that we are judged on our deeds. Evil or good. That is not Evangelical theology at all. And I agree with you. As does Matthew 25 46.

---

What do you mean evangelical theology? Can you give me a confession or catechism to refer to?

So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

---

So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?

---

Yes

---

So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?

---

Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?

---

Who is in "hell"? Nobody until judgement day in your theology, correct?

Scripture states clearly that nobody is thrown into the lake of fire until Judgement Day, correct?

It is fascinating to me that you agree Scripture states clearly that we are judged on our deeds. Evil or good. That is not Evangelical theology at all. And I agree with you. As does Matthew 25 46.

---

What do you mean evangelical theology? Can you give me a confession or catechism to refer to?

---

The Westminster shorter catechism states that justification is by faith alone.

Not by good or evil deeds.

Jesus isn't Buzz, Jesus is the rocket.

The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So who acts on the motivation? Do you act on it, or does God make you act on it? If we are supposed to please God, and He gives us the motivation only, doesn't that imply that we have a choice whether or not to do the pleasing action? Or vice versa, choose not to do the pleasing action? I don't know how that isn't works.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

---

I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

---

It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

---

I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

---

A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?

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Scripture really doesn't support these claims.

Scripture calls us slaves to sin and children of wrath. Our fallen nature rejects God. We don't choose anything.

God chose us. Any understanding of God we have is because of Him. Any desire to follow is from Him. It is because of him that we can do anything.

We need to get away from this mindset that we have the capacity to choose God. Our salvation is God plan. Our damnation or rejection is our asserting our free will.

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This sounds more like Calvin than Luther...

The Banned said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So who acts on the motivation? Do you act on it, or does God make you act on it? If we are supposed to please God, and He gives us the motivation only, doesn't that imply that we have a choice whether or not to do the pleasing action? Or vice versa, choose not to do the pleasing action? I don't know how that isn't works.

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God changes our hearts, makes us a new creation, one that desires Him, which includes obeying and pleasing Him; we are never absolved of responsibility. So yes, we have a choice, and after regeneration we desire to choose God.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So if I save a drowning child because the child is drowning, that deed is not good because it's not done to please God?

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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That smells of universalism.

And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.

---

I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.

Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.

---

It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.

---

I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.

Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.

Nuance just gets lost I think.

---

A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?

---

Scripture really doesn't support these claims.

Scripture calls us slaves to sin and children of wrath. Our fallen nature rejects God. We don't choose anything.

God chose us. Any understanding of God we have is because of Him. Any desire to follow is from Him. It is because of him that we can do anything.

We need to get away from this mindset that we have the capacity to choose God. Our salvation is God plan. Our damnation or rejection is our asserting our free will.

---

Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Joshua 24:15
But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

Galatians 6 7-8
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Matthew 6:33

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Revelation 3:20
Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Just a few verses implying we have free will to make choices. And Scripture also says we are created in the image of God.

God bless.

AGC said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So if I save a drowning child because the child is drowning, that deed is not good because it's not done to please God?

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I read the Good Samaritan to my children last night. Isn't the point that he's a Samaritan, and not a Judean or priest, that shocks the listener?

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Cyrus comes to mind also.

Sapper Redux said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So if I save a drowning child because the child is drowning, that deed is not good because it's not done to please God?

---

Versus the alternative of letting them sink to their death? God is a God that values life, and his law is written on every human heart. However, someone outside the adopted family of God cannot please God. They don't score points with God for a good act if it is without love. They are children of wrath. And at the end of the day, whatever God has ordained, will come to pass.

1 Corinthians 13:3
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Job 14:5
Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass…

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So if I save a drowning child because the child is drowning, that deed is not good because it's not done to please God?

---

Versus the alternative of letting them sink to their death? God is a God that values life, however someone outside the adopted family of God cannot please God. They don't score points with God for a good act if it is without love. They are children of wrath. And whatever God has ordained, will come to pass.

1 Corinthians 13:3
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Job 14:5
Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass…

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

---

Were the Good Samaritan and Cyrus in the adopted family of God?

Not that I can tell

I don't read that God was pleased with the Samaritan, maybe I'm missing something

Sapper Redux said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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So Lutherans also believe that man cannot reject God's overtures? We can't chose to turn away from Him if He picks us? And those not chosen never had a chance, as they were not given the grace needed to choose God? Not trying to grill you. Just trying to get your perspective. I did not know this about the Lutheran tradition.

Also, a separate question for you or anyone of the Calvinist/reformed persuasion: we obviously see atheists doing good deeds. We know those good deeds aren't going to save them, but they do good deeds nonetheless. Where does that fit into the total depravity doctrine?

---

It's about motivation. As humans made in the image of God, we all, even atheists, have a basic understanding of right and wrong. However, a deed is only truly good when it's done to please God.

---

So if I save a drowning child because the child is drowning, that deed is not good because it's not done to please God?

---

Yes, correct; it's not ultimately and genuinely good if it's not done with the correct motivation.