Zobel said:
St Paul says yes in Romans 1.
How is that revealed to Native Americans who lived for 1500 years after Jesus before ever hearing a thing about the Bible?
Why do Protestants spend so much time
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Last: 2 days ago by The Banned
How is that revealed to Native Americans who lived for 1500 years after Jesus before ever hearing a thing about the Bible?
10andBOUNCE said:
In theory, unlimited free will opens the possibility in which nobody accepts or responds to the free gift of Christ's work on the cross. Right?
In theory, yes. But as we have evidence in the Bible and in our current lives, we know He isn't striking out 100% of the time.
The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
Sapper Redux said:Zobel said:
St Paul says yes in Romans 1.
How is that revealed to Native Americans who lived for 1500 years after Jesus before ever hearing a thing about the Bible?
God has revealed what we need to do if you've heard the gospel. He has not revealed to us what He does with those that never got the chance. At least in the Catholic faith, the belief is that He judges them differently than those who have heard and refused. We are open to the idea that there are pre-colonial Native Americans in heaven.
Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
How so? I'm omnipotent over my family's food planning. If I choose to let my son pick our meal tonight, healthy or unhealthy, is that him defeating my potency?
The Banned said:Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
How so? I'm omnipotent over my family's food planning. If I choose to let my son pick our meal tonight, healthy or unhealthy, is that him defeating my potency?
That by definition is not omnipotent. That's power over one aspect but not all powerful.
Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
How so? I'm omnipotent over my family's food planning. If I choose to let my son pick our meal tonight, healthy or unhealthy, is that him defeating my potency?
That by definition is not omnipotent. That's power over one aspect but not all powerful.
Well when you're talking about free will, it is one aspect. God has potency over our wills and chooses to give us free use of it. Through HIS potency we have freedom. He could easily reverse that if He chose.
ETA: through HIS potency, He could have chosen to give us no will at all. Like a rock or a tree.
Through His creation, as St Paul says.
This thread took an interesting turn…
Romans 1 is speaking to the idea of natural revelation. All receive enough truth to know God exists and that we are fallen and need help. This revelation is not enough for salvation; special revelation is needed, which only comes from the Lord. I anticipate that we will obviously go our separate ways from this point 
v22 -23 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
v24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
v28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
v32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
But this is a pretty big diversion from why protestants evangelize to catholics, lol.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Solus Christus
Soli Deo Gloria
v22 -23 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
v24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
v28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
v32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
But this is a pretty big diversion from why protestants evangelize to catholics, lol.
Sola Scriptura
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Solus Christus
Soli Deo Gloria
*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
God revels Himself to all mankind through general revelation but that alone is not enough for salvation. The only way is through Jesus.
Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
Again, citation needed. The scriptures don't say this. The church doesn't teach it.
Perhaps this sentiment can lead us back into the original topic of conversation.Zobel said:
Again, citation needed. The scriptures don't say this. The church doesn't teach it.
Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.
Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.
Nuance just gets lost I think.
I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
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A free will as choosing to believe in Christ and a free will to choose to follow him?AgLiving06 said:Sapper Redux said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:
That smells of universalism.
And God's sovereignty and man's unrestricted free will are an interesting juxtaposition.
I don't see why free will and God's sovereignty have to be at odds at all. God is sovereign. In His sovereignty He wanted to give us a say to follow or not. The only reason we have any say is because He chose to give us one. We didn't go get it ourselves.
Weird comment, I know, but the Calvinistic view of God makes Him seem like the god from the show Supernatural. We aren't created to love Him. We're created to be His playthings.
It does raise a contradiction between the idea of an omnipotent deity and truly free will. I'm aware of the theological attempts to get around this, but it is, in the end, a contradiction.
I suspect that people are going too far into the free will direction because they are responding to someone of the Reformed background.
Nobody here honestly believes they have a truly free will. Our will is a corrupted mess that will be this way until this life ends or Jesus comes back.
Nuance just gets lost I think.
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Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
Zobel said:
Again, citation needed. The scriptures don't say this. The church doesn't teach it.
Why do we even need Jesus then if we can just look at a mountain, realize there is a God, and be saved?
Citation: The NT, the Gospel, the many verses in the OT
I was talking about the literal verse itself. Without extrapolations.Martin Q. Blank said:Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
So you believe all who have not heard the Gospel are damned to Hell?
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To me, Paul was talking specifically about people who had not heard the Gospel.Howdy, it is me! said:Zobel said:
Again, citation needed. The scriptures don't say this. The church doesn't teach it.
Why do we even need Jesus then if we can just look at a mountain, realize there is a God, and be saved?
Citation: The NT, the Gospel, the many verses in the OT
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I forgot you're a universalist so this conversation is pointless.dermdoc said:I was talking about the literal verse itself. Without extrapolations.Martin Q. Blank said:Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
So you believe all who have not heard the Gospel are damned to Hell?
I can't keep track of what's what or who's who anymore - we've got Catholics, universalists, Calvinists, etc on this thread and I thought the original post was about why Protestants like to evangelize to Catholics…now we are talking about baptism, free will, general revelation…
I don't care what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe Jesus is the only way unto salvation, we've got a long way to go.
The gospel is God's power for salvation. (Romans 1:16)
Jesus is not A way, He is THE way. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
We are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus. If you can't genuinely understand and agree with that message…
I don't care what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe Jesus is the only way unto salvation, we've got a long way to go.
The gospel is God's power for salvation. (Romans 1:16)
Jesus is not A way, He is THE way. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
We are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus. If you can't genuinely understand and agree with that message…
A Christian universalist which I bet is not what you think it is. I believe the evil are punished for redemption not retributive punished. In other words, God will make all things good.Martin Q. Blank said:I forgot you're a universalist so this conversation is pointless.dermdoc said:I was talking about the literal verse itself. Without extrapolations.Martin Q. Blank said:Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
So you believe all who have not heard the Gospel are damned to Hell?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I definitely believe Jesus is the only way to salvation.Howdy, it is me! said:
I can't keep track of what's what or who's who anymore - we've got Catholics, universalists, Calvinists, etc on this thread and I thought the original post was about why Protestants like to evangelize to Catholics…now we are talking about baptism, free will, general revelation…
I don't care what you want to call yourself, if you don't believe Jesus is the only way unto salvation, we've got a long way to go.
The gospel is God's power for salvation. (Romans 1:16)
Jesus is not A way, He is THE way. (John 14:6, Acts 4:12)
We are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Jesus. If you can't genuinely understand and agree with that message…
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Yah, that's a universalist.dermdoc said:A Christian universalist which I bet is not what you think it is. I believe the evil are punished for redemption not retributive punished. In other words, God will make all things good.Martin Q. Blank said:I forgot you're a universalist so this conversation is pointless.dermdoc said:I was talking about the literal verse itself. Without extrapolations.Martin Q. Blank said:Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
So you believe all who have not heard the Gospel are damned to Hell?
A Christian universalist. I believe in punishment and Christ is the only way to salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Yah, that's a universalist.dermdoc said:A Christian universalist which I bet is not what you think it is. I believe the evil are punished for redemption not retributive punished. In other words, God will make all things good.Martin Q. Blank said:I forgot you're a universalist so this conversation is pointless.dermdoc said:I was talking about the literal verse itself. Without extrapolations.Martin Q. Blank said:Nothing?? Calling on Jesus, believing in Jesus, hearing Jesus preached about...has nothing to do with salvation?dermdoc said:I do not see how that verse has anything to do with salvation.Martin Q. Blank said:Rom. 10:14-15Zobel said:*citation neededQuote:
This revelation is not enough for salvation
edit nm not productive
I don't know what to tell you then.
So you believe all who have not heard the Gospel are damned to Hell?
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So just curious, what do you think happens to people who have never heard the Gospel?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on? That says nothing about hearing the Gospel. And does a fire that is everlasting mean people are punished forever?
I believe it is a refining fire. If you believe it is a retributive punishment fire tha I would think this supports annihilationism.
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Yesdermdoc said:So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
Martin Q. Blank said:Yesdermdoc said:So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?
Why did Jesus said he came? It is from Isaiah.
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Is this a trick question? I assume that even in your universalist paradigm, those in purgatory/hell are eventually preached to and they repent?dermdoc said:So hypothetically, why does one need to hear the Gospel for salvation?Martin Q. Blank said:Yesdermdoc said:So doing good or doing evil is what we are judged on?Martin Q. Blank said:
In the words of the Athanasian Creed,
all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
I think it's super relevant to the topic, actually. The original point was "the gospel isn't preached". Exactly. What is the gospel?Quote:
I can't keep track of what's what or who's who anymore - we've got Catholics, universalists, Calvinists, etc on this thread and I thought the original post was about why Protestants like to evangelize to Catholics…now we are talking about baptism, free will, general revelation…
It's pretty clear to me at least that the gospel as preached by the apostles has some fundamentally different presuppositions than the gospel as preached by certain protestant groups today.
So what is the gospel? I think it is pretty simple to see that there are two ways the gospel is taught.
One is to the Judaeans - that the Messiah they are waiting for is Jesus of Nazareth. The only difference between St Paul's understanding before and after His encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus was his identification of Jesus as the Messiah. Nothing else changed! St Paul did not "convert" - he simply adjusted his timeline and understanding of the scriptures. And the message St Paul preaches centers around this declaration, and Jewish objections to it.
The other is to the seventy nations. Contra many modern views, the understanding of the scriptures is not that Israel was saved and others were damned. Nowhere is this said in the OT or NT. The understanding is that mankind will be saved through Israel - this is the promise of Abraham. The unique seed will inherit all of the promises of Abraham, and through Him all mankind will be blessed. Israel as the collective seed bears these promises until the fulness of time, and ultimately the nations of the world will be saved through the nation of Israel.
St Paul's message to the non-Jewish peoples of the world is this: God has revealed himself to you and your ancestors, and you and your ancestors have rejected Him instead turning to worship lesser beings - created beings - in the form of idolatry. Until now you have been acting in ignorance, and in His mercy He has overlooked it. But now, because of the coming of Jesus the Messiah, the God-Man, the time of ignorance is over. He has cleansed the whole world from Sin through the Great Atonement on the cross, He has drawn all mankind to Himself, and He has defeated death. All mankind will be saved from death, and when He returns, all will be judged by what they have done. He will render to every man according to his works: to those who are obedient and faithful to Him, He will give eternal life, and to the disobedient, there will be wrath.
////
To your question, then - why do we need Jesus to be saved?
One, because He conquered death by death. He united our human nature to the divine nature. He took away and cleansed the Sin of the world, opening the path for us to be joined to Him in Life. He is the only way to life.
That all happens separately from any action on our part. That was unilateral salvation to all mankind - salvation from death - all will be raised! As we say at Pascha, Christ is Risen! and not one dead is left in the grave!
But the response to this is how we will be judged. The people - good and bad - in the parable of the last judgment are not aware of their judgment. When did we see you hungry, tired, thirsty, or in prison? What are we judged by? - loving our neighbor. Who is our neighbor? Our brothers, created in the image of God, indelibly stamped with His Image - His brothers, with whom He shares a common nature. What we do to them, we do to Him. Love God, Love your neighbor, on these the whole Torah hangs.
Do you have to know the name of Jesus to love? If you follow His commandments, you are His. As St Paul says, those of the seventy nations who keep these commandments are a Torah unto themselves.
He will judge, based on what we have done. He provides grace to do good to all men, because He is the lover of mankind and the savior of all, the judge of all, who comes to save and not to destroy men. He wants us to repent and live.
THIS is what the Apostles preached, and THIS is why the immediate response to the message that the Messiah is going to return and will judge is "what must I do to be saved?" The answer is to be obedient and faithful, to love God and love each other, and in so doing fulfill the Torah and live to Christ.
If we stick to this all of the other sectarian divisions become irrelevant trifles. Faithfulness and obedience encompass it all.
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