What is the most severe religion?

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DirtDiver
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Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.

Misanthropic - disliking humanity and avoiding human society.

I, God, dislike humanity so much that I'm going to give them a planet to live on with the freedom to experience my love and the love of others.

I, God, dislike humanity so much that I will not hold people accountable for their actions when they exercise great evil.

I, God, want to avoid human society so much that I will not sacrifice the riches of pleasures in heaven to take on human flesh and walk in your shoes.

I, God, dislike humanity so much that I will not ever forgive them for any act of sin against me and other humans who bear my image.

I, God, dislike humanity so much that I will not ever remove the curse from creation and allow those who want to have a relationship with me to experience eternal peace, love, joy, and heath in a sin free environment.


If there is no God...
There's no objective standard of evil or love, it's whatever we want it to be.
There's no reason to exercise sacrificial love for others.
Humanity has no objective value any more than a mosquito.
There's life no after death.
Evil and the effects of evil go unpunished and unredeemed.
Zobel
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.
Fortunately this is not a Christian notion.


The idea that humans are not good and eternally separated from God by sin and must rely on God's blood sacrifice for salvation is absolutely a Christian notion. The idea of total depravity is absolutely supported by millions of Christians.
it's impressive how thoroughly incorrect every part of your first sentence is.
Sapper Redux
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I didn't say the God of the Bible is specifically misanthropic (though he occasionally is, particularly during Genesis), but the Christian depiction of humans and the logic behind the requirements for salvation certainly are.
88Warrior
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Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.
Fortunately this is not a Christian notion.


The idea that humans are not good and eternally separated from God by sin and must rely on God's blood sacrifice for salvation is absolutely a Christian notion. The idea of total depravity is absolutely supported by millions of Christians.
it's impressive how thoroughly incorrect every part of your first sentence is.


Zobel…don't you know it takes a non-Christian to explain to a Christian what a Christian believes…
DirtDiver
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Sapper Redux said:

I didn't say the God of the Bible is specifically misanthropic (though he occasionally is, particularly during Genesis), but the Christian depiction of humans and the logic behind the requirements for salvation certainly are.
What part of Genesis are you referring to? Curious?
Sapper Redux
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The Flood. Sodom.
wannaggie
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Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.
Fortunately this is not a Christian notion.


The idea that humans are not good and eternally separated from God by sin and must rely on God's blood sacrifice for salvation is absolutely a Christian notion. The idea of total depravity is absolutely supported by millions of Christians.
it's impressive how thoroughly incorrect every part of your first sentence is.
Which subsect do you represent when you state your claim about Christian doctrine? That first sentence is a very accurate statement of the fundamental narrative of every Southern Baptist, Church Of Christ, Charismatic, Pentecostal, or other non-denominational evangelical church I have ever attended. But I'll freely admit I don't have much deep knowledge of the other several thousand Christian groups out there, so your particular flavor of Christianity may have a different central doctrine. Certainly I have known Unitarians, for example, who do not believe that statement and also still identify as Christian.
Zobel
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AG
Humans are good, not evil. They're created in the image of God, and it is precisely that image that makes the statement "whatever you did to the least of these my brethren you did to me" true.

Humans are not eternally separated from God by sin. The Torah is full of sins being forgiven, and God forgiving sin.

And the whole idea of blood sacrifice is a complete pejorative and hyperbolic misunderstanding of the Cross.

Sapper Redux
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If humans are good and capable of having sin forgiven without the sacrificial death of Jesus, then what precisely is the point of the sacrificial death of Jesus?
Zobel
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AG
First - this is not rhetorical, right? You agree that God provides means for forgiveness of sins apart from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ both as part of the Torah (i.e., prescribed ritual acts of sacrifice) and apart from it. God forgives sins when people repent - that is a clear part of His character in demonstrated over and over again in the scriptures.

The "point" is manifold, but first you have to understand what sacrifices are in the ancient world.

We use the word sacrifice to mean something lost or destroyed for exchange in our vernacular. "He sacrificed for his goals" or "it was a big sacrifice". It has a kind of fundamentally negative connotation, which comes out of a specific later understanding of the sacrifice of Christ in view - death for exchange.

That view is not in the OT, because many of the sacrifices didn't involve death, and for those that did death was incidental and not ritualized. The actual killing or death of the animal wasn't part of the ritual, it was just a necessary step in order to offer the animal as food. So death isn't really part of sacrifice. Nor is loss.

Instead if we read the word sacrifice as gift you get a lot better understanding of all of it. In modern English we would never describe a birthday or wedding gift as a sacrifice, but that is exactly what they are. The implication matters. Sacrifices were hospitality, and particularly food, which culminate in a shared meal that usually re-experiences or re-actualizes an experience. That's why in the ancient world they were done at specific times and places, remembrances of particular events and encounters that happened. The sacrifices of the tabernacle were no different. The Israelites offered incense as hospitality daily, and offered a wide range of sacrifices to God - gifts - to either deepen relationship, share in the good things at harvests, or to heal the relationship after a breach (with repentance). The idea is kind of one of mutual gift-giving in an ever increasing, deepening spiral of gifts and hospitality.

If we take that and read it forward onto the Cross, we see the ultimate expression of offering a pleasing gift to God. The gift of a perfect human, fully divine, voluntarily submitting to death to save all mankind, to bridge God and man. And, in the Eucharist we re-experience and re-actualize this event, and participate in it, and are joined to it. So the nature of the Cross becomes not a kind of defeat or loss for exchange, but a victory and voluntary offering of a gift. The ultimate wedding gift, the ultimate hospitality, the ultimate first-fruit, the ultimate thanksgiving to God for the good things He's given us, the ultimate healing of the breach between God and Man.

And we can take that and read it onto the sacrifice of almsgiving and good works - not loss for exchange, but gifts offered to God by offering them to His image in our fellow man. This is why "If anyone says, 'I love God,' but hates his brother, he is a liar." Understanding of sacrifice as gift completely recasts the Cross and the good works of the Christian life.

So, having cleared that up, the "point" of Jesus is not death, in and of itself, but all of the things we remember: the Incarnation, the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the age that is coming.

In the Incarnation the divine nature was permanently joined to the human nature, forever elevating the nature of Mankind.

On the cross the perfect sacrifice was offered, through a perfect priesthood, perfectly and completely representing God to Man and Man to God, completely and perfectly healing and uniting the relationship between God and Man. It was also a once-for-all offering for the forgiveness of sins, fulfilling and expanding the covering and cleansing of Sin for the world: not just for a year, for the camp and Tabernacle, for the people of Israel, but for all mankind and the whole world.

In death He died, and in the Resurrection He trampled down and defeated death, once-for-all, permanently eradicating the hold of death on the nature of Mankind.

And in the Ascension He is enthroned as king and victor over all nations, drawing all mankind to Himself, ruling in the midst of His enemies for a time before the return and judgment.
wannaggie
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wannaggie
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Zobel said:

wannaggie said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.
Fortunately this is not a Christian notion.


The idea that humans are not good and eternally separated from God by sin and must rely on God's blood sacrifice for salvation is absolutely a Christian notion. The idea of total depravity is absolutely supported by millions of Christians.
it's impressive how thoroughly incorrect every part of your first sentence is.
Which subsect do you represent when you state your claim about Christian doctrine? That first sentence is a very accurate statement of the fundamental narrative of every Southern Baptist, Church Of Christ, Charismatic, Pentecostal, or other non-denominational evangelical church I have ever attended. But I'll freely admit I don't have much deep knowledge of the other several thousand Christian groups out there, so your particular flavor of Christianity may have a different central doctrine. Certainly I have known Unitarians, for example, who do not believe that statement and also still identify as Christian.


Humans are good, not evil. They're created in the image of God, and it is precisely that image that makes the statement "whatever you did to the least of these my brethren you did to me" true.

Humans are not eternally separated from God by sin. The Torah is full of sins being forgiven, and God forgiving sin.

And the whole idea of blood sacrifice is a complete pejorative and hyperbolic misunderstanding of the Cross.


That is in no way an answer to my question.
The teaching which you say is "not a Christian notion" and is "thoroughly incorrect" is the core teaching of millions and millions of Christians. So either it is one Christian notion and your notion is another Christian notion, or you have the exclusive True Christian teaching, and the millions and millions of others are not True Christians because they have been out there for decades preaching a Gospel which is entirely heretical.

I do not mean that to sound snarky. I am trying to understand whence comes your claim to be able to quickly dismiss the sincerely-held beliefs of millions of Christians about the core of the Gospel. It's a serious claim, so I'd like to know what sect or communion of believers you're speaking from.

Hebrews 9:11-22
11 Christ Has Come. But now Christ has arrived as the high priest of the good things that have come. He has passed through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by human hands, that is, not a part of this creation, 12 and he has entered once for all into the sanctuary not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of ashes of a heifer sanctify those who have been defiled and restore bodily purity. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from acts that lead to death so that we may worship the living God.

15 A Covenant Sealed with the Blood of Christ. For this reason, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who have been called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since his death has served to redeem the sins that were committed under the first covenant.
16 Now when a will is involved, it is obligatory to prove the death of the one who made it. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it has no force while the one who made it is still alive.

18 Hence, not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when all the commandments of the Law had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, together with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to observe."
21 And in the same way, he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the liturgical vessels. 22 Indeed, under the Law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


Romans 5:9-14
9 And so, now that we have been justified by Christ's blood, how much more certainly will we be saved through him from divine retribution. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more certain it is that, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we now even trust exultantly in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have already been granted reconciliation.

12 Therefore, sin entered the world as the result of one man, and death[f] as a result of sin, and thus death has afflicted the entire human race inasmuch as everyone has sinned. 13 Sin was already in the world before there was any Law, even though sin is not reckoned when there is no Law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned over all from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned by disobeying a command, as did Adam who prefigured the one who was to come.


These passages are merely two of many passages which form the belief of millions of Christians that the nature of Christianity consists of:
1) The inherent, fallen sin-nature of mankind.
2) Mankind's inherent sin prevents us from approaching the presence of God in full communion.
3) Blood sacrifices were instituted by God as necessary under the first post-Fall covenant (the Law He gave unto Moses).
4) Christ, as the highest priest of all priests, performed a blood sacrifice of himself.
5) Christ's blood sacrifice is the only sacrifice which does not need to be renewed by successive visits to priests, but is both necessary AND sufficient for salvation.

This is core of The Gospel to millions. This is the same doctrine expressed in the sentence you described as "thoroughly incorrect" in "every part".
Sapper Redux
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Quote:

death was incidental and not ritualized. The actual killing or death of the animal wasn't part of the ritual, it was just a necessary step in order to offer the animal as food. So death isn't really part of sacrifice. Nor is loss


Except this isn't true. Yes, not every sacrifice needed to involve death, but it was absolutely essential for the major sacrifices and the blood of the sacrifice was extremely important. Leviticus has repeated instructions for sacrifices for major sins, particularly communal sins or sins of leaders and every one of them involves a living animal sacrifice followed by spreading the blood and presenting it before the veil of the tabernacle.

The actual act of death and the nature of blood (and the kidneys) as a life force are extremely important in the rituals. You can't divorce that from the claims made about Jesus. And they don't in the New Testament nor in the Church writings. The literal death of Jesus is extremely important beyond its metaphysical or metaphorical significance. And the blood involved is constantly referenced and revered.
dermdoc
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AG
wannaggie said:

Zobel said:

wannaggie said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Zobel said:

Sapper Redux said:

Yes. The Christian notion that humans are evil from birth and irredeemable without God killing himself as a blood sacrifice, as well as mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation is extremely misanthropic.
Fortunately this is not a Christian notion.


The idea that humans are not good and eternally separated from God by sin and must rely on God's blood sacrifice for salvation is absolutely a Christian notion. The idea of total depravity is absolutely supported by millions of Christians.
it's impressive how thoroughly incorrect every part of your first sentence is.
Which subsect do you represent when you state your claim about Christian doctrine? That first sentence is a very accurate statement of the fundamental narrative of every Southern Baptist, Church Of Christ, Charismatic, Pentecostal, or other non-denominational evangelical church I have ever attended. But I'll freely admit I don't have much deep knowledge of the other several thousand Christian groups out there, so your particular flavor of Christianity may have a different central doctrine. Certainly I have known Unitarians, for example, who do not believe that statement and also still identify as Christian.


Humans are good, not evil. They're created in the image of God, and it is precisely that image that makes the statement "whatever you did to the least of these my brethren you did to me" true.

Humans are not eternally separated from God by sin. The Torah is full of sins being forgiven, and God forgiving sin.

And the whole idea of blood sacrifice is a complete pejorative and hyperbolic misunderstanding of the Cross.


That is in no way an answer to my question.
The teaching which you say is "not a Christian notion" and is "thoroughly incorrect" is the core teaching of millions and millions of Christians. So either it is one Christian notion and your notion is another Christian notion, or you have the exclusive True Christian teaching, and the millions and millions of others are not True Christians because they have been out there for decades preaching a Gospel which is entirely heretical.

I do not mean that to sound snarky. I am trying to understand whence comes your claim to be able to quickly dismiss the sincerely-held beliefs of millions of Christians about the core of the Gospel. It's a serious claim, so I'd like to know what sect or communion of believers you're speaking from.

Hebrews 9:11-22
11 Christ Has Come. But now Christ has arrived as the high priest of the good things that have come. He has passed through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by human hands, that is, not a part of this creation, 12 and he has entered once for all into the sanctuary not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of ashes of a heifer sanctify those who have been defiled and restore bodily purity. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from acts that lead to death so that we may worship the living God.

15 A Covenant Sealed with the Blood of Christ. For this reason, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who have been called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since his death has served to redeem the sins that were committed under the first covenant.
16 Now when a will is involved, it is obligatory to prove the death of the one who made it. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it has no force while the one who made it is still alive.

18 Hence, not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when all the commandments of the Law had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, together with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to observe."
21 And in the same way, he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the liturgical vessels. 22 Indeed, under the Law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


Romans 5:9-14
9 And so, now that we have been justified by Christ's blood, how much more certainly will we be saved through him from divine retribution. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more certain it is that, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we now even trust exultantly in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have already been granted reconciliation.

12 Therefore, sin entered the world as the result of one man, and death[f] as a result of sin, and thus death has afflicted the entire human race inasmuch as everyone has sinned. 13 Sin was already in the world before there was any Law, even though sin is not reckoned when there is no Law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned over all from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned by disobeying a command, as did Adam who prefigured the one who was to come.


These passages are merely two of many passages which form the belief of millions of Christians that the nature of Christianity consists of:
1) The inherent, fallen sin-nature of mankind.
2) Mankind's inherent sin prevents us from approaching the presence of God in full communion.
3) Blood sacrifices were instituted by God as necessary under the first post-Fall covenant (the Law He gave unto Moses).
4) Christ, as the highest priest of all priests, performed a blood sacrifice of himself.
5) Christ's blood sacrifice is the only sacrifice which does not need to be renewed by successive visits to priests, but is both necessary AND sufficient for salvation.

This is core of The Gospel to millions. This is the same doctrine expressed in the sentence you described as "thoroughly incorrect" in "every part".
Agree. We probably disagree on how broad the atonement is but that's okay.
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Zobel
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AG


Quote:

The teaching which you say is "not a Christian notion" and is "thoroughly incorrect" is the core teaching of millions and millions of Christians. So either it is one Christian notion and your notion is another Christian notion, or you have the exclusive True Christian teaching, and the millions and millions of others are not True Christians because they have been out there for decades preaching a Gospel which is entirely heretical.
You said it, not me.

But we don't need to go quite that far. I think you've misunderstood, so forgive me for not communicating clearly.

There's a very specific set of ideas that I responded to.

- God killed himself as a blood sacrifice

That there was blood involved in the sacrifice of Christ does not make it a blood sacrifice. While it is true that Christ both died and was a sacrifice, and that these things necessarily are linked, one is a means and the other an end.

- mandating correct belief regardless of actions and behavior in order to avoid eternal damnation

Also not a Christian notion, certainly not a universal one. The rise of "belief" over and against action is largely a post-Reformation notion. The scriptures never establish belief as a criteria for salvation - always actions.

It's no good throwing scripture without commentary, because believe it or not my understanding is also based on the scriptures, including Hebrews and Romans. The distinction is how we understand those scriptures.

1) The inherent, fallen sin-nature of mankind.

No. Sin is not inherent to the nature of mankind. Christ Jesus is fully God and fully Man. This is established by the Faith of Nicaea, is common and fundamental to the belief of anyone who is properly called Christian. I hope we can agree here. If not, I will have to say that whatever your beliefs may be, they are not Christian.

When He became human, He took human nature to Himself - becoming of two natures, Divine and Man, "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation". If sin was inherent to the nature of mankind - existing as a permanent or essential characteristic - either He is not human or we are not, and if that is the case, our salvation is not possible. That man is fallen does not make the nature of humans evil, and the very idea of the fall shows that sin itself is external to the human nature. As Aristotle says, "the nature of a thing is its end" and the end of humans is to be in union with God, to be like He is by grace, to "become partakers of the divine nature" (that is, salvation).

As Sin is not only foreign to this end but antithetical to it, it is clear that sin is not only not essential to the nature of Man, but incompatible with it. And accordingly with sin, death.

We can see this simply because Man was not created with Sin, existed before Sin, and was called "good". God is not the author of evil, but He made Man.

If sin was proper to Man, of what nature did Christ Jesus take? Did He join Himself with sin? If sin is inherent to Man, we should hate men. Aren't we told to "hate evil"? And yet we are are to love one another.

To be clear, human nature is distorted, the image and likeness is damaged. But not destroyed, not inherently evil.


2) Mankind's inherent sin prevents us from approaching the presence of God in full communion.
Once we deny that man's sin is inherent from the above then I agree.

You also need to carefully handle the word Sin and sins. Sin is a force in the world, a destructive, disease-like taint given agency by sins. Paraphrasing St Paul, Sin entered the world because of one man's sin, and Sin caused death.

3) Blood sacrifices were instituted by God as necessary under the first post-Fall covenant (the Law He gave unto Moses).

I disagree, but that's because I am rejecting the common and very bad understanding of "blood sacrifice". Sacrifices were prescribed - worship is synonymous with sacrifice - and ritual purification involved blood. But not all sacrifices required blood, and those that did were not about death. Death is always incidental. It is not "blood for the blood God".

Blood is always about life, and in that aspect it should be seen as the antipole to sin - again because sin and death are linked. Sin is "death stuff" and blood is "life stuff". Do you see the immediate problem with linking "blood sacrifice" with death? On the contrary, the blood is about life.

Also - just as we have to be careful with Sin vs sins (because the scriptures make the distinction) we should also be careful with the words used to describe the various offerings and sacrifices in the Torah (because the scriptures make the distinction). A sin offering and a guilt offering in both the Hebrew and the Greek don't actually have the word "sacrifice" or "offering" in Leviticus. They are both referred to simply as "sin" and "guilt". The "offering" part is contextualized. And, importantly, neither is the word "blood sacrifice" in the scriptures.

4) Christ, as the highest priest of all priests, performed a blood sacrifice of himself.
I have issues with this, too, but probably quibbling maybe? But "highest of all" makes it seem like a difference in hierarchy where Christ was actually a distinction in kind. The function of a priest is to represent God to Man, and Man to God. This is Israel's scriptural role as a nation. Christ did this in a fundamentally unique way, being a unique mediator between God and Man not only in His actions but also in His very being, as He is of both natures. I would rather we say that Christ as the perfect high priest.

He didn't perform a "blood sacrifice" - again this notion is nowhere to be found in the Torah - but He did offer Himself to make atonement (literally covering) and propitiation for Sin - once for all - and for the sins of the people. His offering was a gift, a perfect offering of the perfect human - which we are to emulate ("present your bodies as living sacrifices, which is rational worship") and also a sin (offering) and a guilt (offering). As well as a thank offering and peace offering and every other sacrifice and offering all tied up in one.

5) Christ's blood sacrifice is the only sacrifice which does not need to be renewed by successive visits to priests, but is both necessary AND sufficient for salvation.

Given the objection to characterizing it as a 'blood sacrifice' ----

Of course the second part is correct. Because He was fully God and fully Man, His blood - His "life stuff" was truly the source and fountain of all Life. And therefore it perfectly and totally consumed and destroyed Sin and sins. As St Isaac the Syrian says, all of the sins of mankind were like a handful of sand thrown into the sea. Or, like when the woman with the issue of blood touched Him - He didn't become unclean, but she became clean. He, being Life itself, took death on to Himself, and when death encountered Life it was destroyed, annihilated. This is why it does not need to be repeated. This is also why it was not merely effective temporally for the Tabernacle, or the camp, or the priest, or the people.

In terms of the day of Atonement ritual, Christ was both goats - the goat for Yahweh (NOT with sin on it) who is killed and the blood used to cleanse the residual taint of sin from the Tabernacle, AND the goat for Azazel who has sin put on it and is NOT killed but instead expelled out. Only again, because He is Life, when He takes on the sins of the people, those sins are eradicated in His holiness, and He is still a pure, perfect, unblemished, acceptable, holy offering suitable to be sacrificed to God. Sin is not returned out into the world, to the nations, but drawn in and destroyed, opening the path of communion with God to all men, all mankind, through Christ Jesus, because He shares our nature, as our brother.
Zobel
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AG
I didn't say the blood wasn't important, I said the death is incidental, and the act of killing wasn't part of the ritual. How do I know? Because it isn't described at any point anywhere in the Torah. It simply says the bull is killed, the goat is killed. The closest thing we get is an admonition to wring the neck of a bird but not sever the head.

The animal must die to become food. The animal must die to use its blood. But the death is not ritualized in the Torah as it absolutely is in other sacrificial systems.

I'm not saying blood sacrifices aren't a thing - I'm drawing a distinction between death cult blood sacrifice and what is in the Torah, because they are not the same.
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