Evolution Question

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DirtDiver
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ramblin_ag02 said:

It's fine to be skeptical of a scientific theory. It's actually great, but you have to propose something that explains the facts better and is more useful over all. The theory of evolution is useful to explain all kinds of things in the fossil record and following DNA changes over time. We can witness genetic selection under pressure in real time, and we've even witnessed speciation in simple organisms. No one here is giving a working alternative to evolutionary theory. Everyone is just sorting of saying, "I don't like it and it doesn't explain everything," and then *crickets*. There is nothing magical about leading theories. Newton was right about physics until he wasn't. But it didn't happen because people didn't like Newton's theories. It happened because we found something better. So if you want to toss out the theory of evolution, then just find something better. Until then, it's the most useful biological theory we have.

Facts:
We have a complex universe that has a beginning.
We have fossils buried all around a spherical planet.
Animals reproduce after their kind.
Matter and time and space come into existence at the same time.
We are spiritual intelligent beings
DNA contains information

Creationists Explanation
Everything with a beginning has a cause. One can deduce that the first cause must be immaterial, personal, powerful, spaceless, timeless, and intelligent. (God)
A global flood best explains how rocks form in layers and the deposit of fossils around a spherical planet. (rapid burial and intense pressure)
Animals reproduce after their kind.
Matter, time, and space come into existence at the same time. (Genesis 1:1)
Intelligent beings produce intelligent beings, It's unreasonable and unobservable to conclude that intelligence and reason is a product of chance.
DNA has information points to an intelligent cause.

Evolutionists Explanation
The complex universe is a product of an big bang, potential explosion. Order from chaos, life from non- life.
Fossils were put in the ground by....choose your own adventure...over millions/billions of years.
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind.
We are intelligent beings whose minds are a product of chance
DNA contains information by chance
DirtDiver
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Quote:

It's fine to be skeptical of a scientific theory. It's actually great, but you have to propose something that explains the facts better and is more useful over all.

I didn't speak to usefulness. Creationists and Evolutionist would both agree that genetic testing, animal and plant breeding is scientific and useful.

Creationists claim that "natural selection" - is not evidence for molecules to man evolution and that the philosophy of molecules to man evolution is not useful.

The molecules to man evolution theory is useful if you want to : promote racism, devalue human life, attempt to remove moral accountability for one's actions.

The Biblical account of creation if useful for humanity to know where they came from, the purpose for which they exist, and how they should interact with their creator and others, and to understand the cause and effect world in which we live.
Rocag
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AG
Quote:

Facts:

We have a complex universe that has a beginning.
Not necessarily. There could have been something before the Big Bang, we just don't know.

We have fossils buried all around a spherical planet.
True.

Animals reproduce after their kind.
"Kind" is not a scientific term, so the meaning of this statement is at best vague. Does it mean species? Genus? Family? Something else?

Matter and time and space come into existence at the same time.
Again, not necessarily.

We are spiritual intelligent beings
Depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I'm not sure this is something everyone agrees with we can assume is fact.

DNA contains information
I suspect there's a disagreement to be had over what we mean when we say information and what it implies, but sure.

You misrepresent the arguments for evolution because you fundamentally don't understand them. It's evident in the way you describe evolution, including the repeated use of the phrase "monkey to man". And by saying things like the evolution of the mind is the product of chance. No one who understands evolution would describe it that way. But I'm not sure you understand why which makes this a difficult discussion to have.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Quote:

Evolutionists Explanation
The complex universe is a product of an big bang, potential explosion. Order from chaos, life from non- life.
Fossils were put in the ground by....choose your own adventure...over millions/billions of years.
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind.
We are intelligent beings whose minds are a product of chance
DNA contains information by chance
Just in case you weren't aware, evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang or the origin of life. It is merely an explanation for how life can diversify in the right environments.

It seems to me like you are using "evolution" as a stand-in for materialistic atheism in general, and those things are very different
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kurt vonnegut
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AG
newbie11 said:

Evolution looks great on a macro level….we look like monkeys therefore we evolved from monkeys.

It's when you start to think about things on microcellular/chemical level that things go to hell.

ie. how do you suddenly take away 2 chromosomes from a monkey and produce not only a functioning, fertile organism but one superior to the original? And manage to produce a male and female within close proximity at the proper reproductive age to reproduce successfully. Name a single genetic deletion or addition in humans that leads to a fertile normal intellect person? And that's not even two whole chromosomes at one time.

Don't even bother to think about how the incredibly complex clotting cascade works where each factor is worthless without all the others. Makes zero sense it would develop evolutionarily.

I can do some Google searching and find that we do witness reproduction in which the number of chromosomes changes between generations and the offspring remains viable. Apparently it is more common in plants than animals, but its something we have directly observed in lab conditions.

Now, the obvious problem with the two sentences that I just wrote is that I'm not an expert in the field of evolutionary biology. And so, I don't really understand how this happens and I really don't know the full context of the studies that have shown this change. It would be problematic for me to pull a short science journal article on this topic and present it as though its evidence that satisfies your concerns.

I don't know what your level of education and experience is with the subject. Maybe you are like me and you've read some books and some articles. Maybe you are the world's leading scientist on this topic. Assuming the former . . . . you and I are going to run into issues crediting or discrediting marcro evolution on a technical level. Its not enough for you to read an article that says evolutionary theory has trouble explaining 'x', and therefore the theory is fundamentally wrong. And its equally not enough for me to read an article that shows 'x' and present it as though we have rock solid evidence of macro evolution.

I'm all for skepticism. But skepticism needs to acknowledge ignorance. My gut instinct is that there is no one on this board that is really sufficiently knowledgeable about this field to have an actual debate about these technical questions.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
DirtDiver said:



Example:
Evolution:
Monkey to man evolution - never observed.

Creation:
animals bring forth 'after their kind" - cats don't reproduce and make dogs. monkey's don't reproduce and make humans. - observed in nature

The creation of existence has never been observed. What we do observe is that the existence exists and that new creations of new existences are not observed in nature. Therefore existences cannot be created, right?

The formation of a mountain has never been observed. What we do observe is that mountains are where they are and their creation is not observed in nature. Therefore, geological forces cannot create mountains, right?

If you are a YEC, then I think any scientific idea about deep time will be problematic. If you are not a YEC, then I think you fundamentally are failing to consider the affects of time. Humans have been alive for a tiny itty bitty blip on the radar of time. Saying that monkey to man has never been observed is equal to pulling a thimble of water out of the ocean and saying, look there are no whales in the ocean.

If we could observe monkey to man evolution, then that observation would radically upend every scientific theory about evolution. The fact that you point to it as evidence that evolution is not true, suggests to me that you simply don't understand what the theory of evolution is.
DirtDiver
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Rocag said:

Quote:

Facts:

We have a complex universe that has a beginning.
Not necessarily. There could have been something before the Big Bang, we just don't know.

We have fossils buried all around a spherical planet.
True.

Animals reproduce after their kind.
"Kind" is not a scientific term, so the meaning of this statement is at best vague. Does it mean species? Genus? Family? Something else?

Matter and time and space come into existence at the same time.
Again, not necessarily.

We are spiritual intelligent beings
Depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I'm not sure this is something everyone agrees with we can assume is fact.

DNA contains information
I suspect there's a disagreement to be had over what we mean when we say information and what it implies, but sure.

You misrepresent the arguments for evolution because you fundamentally don't understand them. It's evident in the way you describe evolution, including the repeated use of the phrase "monkey to man". And by saying things like the evolution of the mind is the product of chance. No one who understands evolution would describe it that way. But I'm not sure you understand why which makes this a difficult discussion to have.


Quote:

We have a complex universe that has a beginning.
Not necessarily. There could have been something before the Big Bang, we just don't know.
While everything is theoretically possible, not every conclusion is reasonable based upon the evidence. The idea that an unguided impersonal explosion (Big Bang) created life, its not a reasonable conclusion based upon the evidence.


Quote:

Animals reproduce after their kind.
"Kind" is not a scientific term, so the meaning of this statement is at best vague. Does it mean species? Genus? Family? Something else?

The word "Kind" was clearly understood by the ancients. (check out the passages from Leviticus below. The text would be meaningless if they didn't have this understanding). This term was understood before the terms of Genus, species, and family existed and modern scientific methodology. Just because it's not in a modern text book doesn't mean that it cannot be comprehended and tested.

Science: the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation, and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained.

We observe in the natural world that animals 'bring forth' or reproduce after their kind. The term "kind" best describes the relationships we see within nature today. One injects a great amount of faith to come to conclusions that at one time animals did not bring forth after their kind (Evolution). Is molecules to man Evolution good science?

From Genesis and Leviticus
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.
God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good
And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.

13 'These, moreover, you shall detest among the birds; they are abhorrent, not to be eaten: the eagle and the vulture and the buzzard, 14 and the kite and the falcon in its kind, 15 every raven in its kind, 16 and the ostrich and the owl and the sea gull and the hawk in its kind, 17 and the little owl and the cormorant and the great owl, 18 and the white owl and the pelican and the carrion vulture, 19 and the stork, the heron in its kinds, and the hoopoe, and the bat.

20 'All the winged insects that walk on all fours are detestable to you. 21 Yet these you may eat among all the winged insects which walk on all fours: those which have above their feet jointed legs with which to jump on the earth. 22 These of them you may eat: the locust in its kinds, and the devastating locust in its kinds, and the cricket in its kinds, and the grasshopper in its kinds. 23 But all other winged insects which are four-footed are detestable to you.

29 'Now these are to you the unclean among the swarming things which swarm on the earth: the mole, and the mouse, and the great lizard in its kinds, 30 and the gecko, and the crocodile, and the lizard, and the sand reptile, and the chameleon.


Quote:

Matter and time and space come into existence at the same time.
Again, not necessarily.
For matter to exist it must exist in a space. Once it's exists it exists at a point in time. You cannot have matter without time and space.


Quote:

We are spiritual intelligent beings
Depends on what you mean by "spiritual". I'm not sure this is something everyone agrees with we can assume is fact.
Everybody's agreement is not a benchmark of truth. Does the evidence lead us to reasonably conclude that we have a spirit? I think physical death is the best way to comprehend this. Death is the separation of the Spirit and the Body.


Quote:

You misrepresent the arguments for evolution because you fundamentally don't understand them. It's evident in the way you describe evolution, including the repeated use of the phrase "monkey to man". And by saying things like the evolution of the mind is the product of chance. No one who understands evolution would describe it that way. But I'm not sure you understand why which makes this a difficult discussion to have.

How am I misrepresenting Evolution? I'm simply calling out the unscientific bait-and-switch.

Natural Selection which is called evolution is scientific.
Molecules to Monkey to Man - Common Ancestry - is also called Evolution
Natural Selection (evolution) is not evidence for molecules to monkey to man evolution.

The term Evolution has been used in this thread to mean both without distinction.
DirtDiver
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Evolutionists Explanation
The complex universe is a product of an big bang, potential explosion. Order from chaos, life from non- life.
Fossils were put in the ground by....choose your own adventure...over millions/billions of years.
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind.
We are intelligent beings whose minds are a product of chance
DNA contains information by chance
Just in case you weren't aware, evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang or the origin of life. It is merely an explanation for how life can diversify in the right environments.

It seems to me like you are using "evolution" as a stand-in for materialistic atheism in general, and those things are very different

You could be right. I may be overlapping the two. The Big Bang is an origin story of the universe which includes life at some point. Evolution is also used as an origin of life story that is distinct from the big bang theory.
Jabin
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Quote:

Animals reproduce after their kind.

"Kind" is not a scientific term, so the meaning of this statement is at best vague. Does it mean species? Genus? Family? Something else?
Interestingly, although "species", "genus", and "family" are commonly used terms in science today, they provide little more precision or clarity than does the term "kind."

Years ago I was involved in litigation over whether a lizard found on a remote Caribbean island was a unique "species" or not. Multiple heavy hitter experts from science were involved. One expert informed me that the very idea of "species" was originally proposed by Carl Linnaeus, a devout Christian, in an attempt to define what the Bible meant by "kind". He also pointed out that from a true Darwinian evolutionary perspective, that no such concept as a unique species should exist. Rather, all critters exist somewhere on an unbroken continuum of change.

Furthermore, there is currently no consensus on the definition of species within the scientific community. Some biologists rely on morphological differences couples with supposed reproductive isolation for varying periods of time. Other biologists insist on DNA as the conclusive evidence.

What I finally concluded was that the determination of "species" is today mainly a political and career decision, not a scientific one. Political because of the political forces that can be utilized by such a determination (e.g., the Caribbean island lizard), and career because finding a new "species" can catapult a scientist's career from obscurity to prominence.

Another example of the silliness of the modern usage of species is that it has discarded one of the traditional tests, i.e., whether two different critters can mate and produce fertile offspring. That has been discarded because of tons of examples where it doesn't work. Camels and llamas, for example, produce fertile offspring when they mate, despite huge genetic and morphological differences and the assumed geographical separation for millions of years. Lions and tigers are another example - their fertile female offspring are known as either ligers or tigons (although their male offspring are apparentl infertile).
DirtDiver
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kurt vonnegut said:

DirtDiver said:



Example:
Evolution:
Monkey to man evolution - never observed.

Creation:
animals bring forth 'after their kind" - cats don't reproduce and make dogs. monkey's don't reproduce and make humans. - observed in nature

The creation of existence has never been observed. What we do observe is that the existence exists and that new creations of new existences are not observed in nature. Therefore existences cannot be created, right?

The formation of a mountain has never been observed. What we do observe is that mountains are where they are and their creation is not observed in nature. Therefore, geological forces cannot create mountains, right?

Great point! Yes, the creation of existence was not witnessed by human eyes. The One who created the the universe gave humanity a level of detail. When examining the claims of this origin story compared to the alternatives (evolution) one is scientifically observed today and one is not.

We observe animals reproducing after their kind - evidence.
Evolutions claim at one time this was not the case - no evidence, not observed.


Quote:

If you are a YEC, then I think any scientific idea about deep time will be problematic. If you are not a YEC, then I think you fundamentally are failing to consider the affects of time. Humans have been alive for a tiny itty bitty blip on the radar of time. Saying that monkey to man has never been observed is equal to pulling a thimble of water out of the ocean and saying, look there are no whales in the ocean.


...and saying monkeys to man evolution is true is also an faith based claim. One has to believe that this is the reality of the human origin story. It's a faith taught in the classroom through a deceptive practice of bait-and-switch.


Quote:

If we could observe monkey to man evolution, then that observation would radically upend every scientific theory about evolution. The fact that you point to it as evidence that evolution is not true, suggests to me that you simply don't understand what the theory of evolution is.
There's a difference between not believing the theory and not understanding the theory. I don't have enough faith to believe what's being sold. Millions of years ago animals did not reproduce after their kind and humans are a products of non-humans sexual intercourse.
Rocag
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AG
Regarding "kinds", there are some pretty obvious examples of how those claims don't really make sense when faced with the real world but evolution does. Let's take as an example ring species. The basic description of a ring species is a situation in which there is a chain of species which can successfully interbreed. Species A can interbreed with Species B which can interbreed with Species C which can interbreed with Species D and so on. By your definition, they'd all be the same "kind". But when we try and link the opposite ends of the chain (Species A with Species D, for example) we find that they are unable to interbreed. From an evolutionary standpoint, this makes perfect sense. But without evolution, you're going to have difficulty explaining it in any self consistent manner.

Regarding matter and time, my objection was with the "come into existence" part. They could have always existed in some form. The Big Bang isn't necessarily the beginning of all things.

You've defined spiritual so that it means little more than "living". So we're "living intelligent beings"? OK. No objection there.

The "monkey to man" claim is not a synonymous phrase as common ancestry. No one is arguing man is descended from monkeys, just that we have a common ancestor. The repeated use of the phrase exposes either ignorance for what evolution states or an informed decision to misrepresent it.

Furthermore, natural selection is not evolution. Common ancestry isn't evolution either. Related concepts, absolutely, but not interchangeable phrases. If we find life on other planets it likely would not share common ancestry with life on Earth but would still have been shaped by evolution. We can direct evolutionary changes through genetic engineering which is not natural selection.
kurt vonnegut
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AG

Quote:

Great point! Yes, the creation of existence was not witnessed by human eyes. The One who created the the universe gave humanity a level of detail. When examining the claims of this origin story compared to the alternatives (evolution) one is scientifically observed today and one is not.

I'm not sure I follow. Evolution is clearly scientifically observed today - even if you think that process is limited to superficial possibilities. Supernatural creation is certainly not scientifically observed today. In fact, I'm not sure that it would be observable at all. What would natural evidence of the supernatural even look like?

Quote:

We observe animals reproducing after their kind - evidence.
Evolutions claim at one time this was not the case - no evidence, not observed.
You are very clearly creating strawman arguments against the theory of evolution. Evolution does not make the claim that animals reproduce to create different 'kinds' or species in the sense you are describing. As Jabin put it, evolution proposes an unbroken continuum of change.

I think that you accept the concept of reproduction with variation. Evolution proposes that the cumulative sum total of those variations over very long time periods can create large enough divergences such that the organisms descendent from the original can be considered distinct enough to be considered different species. In this scenario, you could have several hundred thousand generations between one 'kind' evolving into a different 'kind'. And each generation is only slightly modified from the generation before or after. So, apes did not reproduce to create humans. Apes reproduced to create a slightly modified ape. And that offspring created a slightly more modified ape. And that slightly more modified ape reproduced to create an even more slightly modified ape. And if this is repeated a million times, those slight variations add up to become more significant variations.

One other analogy. I have [mostly] a full head of hair. If you remove one hair, you would not say I was bald. If you removed 99% of my hair, you would then say I was bald. And at some arbitrary place between removing one hair and most of my hair is where we draw the line between bald and not bald. We recognize, hopefully, the absurdity of saying that someone with 12,211 hairs is bald, but someone with 12,212 hairs is not bald. The difference between those numbers is basically indistinguishable. What we can conclude from this thought experiment is that there is a clear distinction between a full head of hair and being bald, but that drawing a definitive line between those categories is difficult and arbitrary. We recognize that as you go from a full head of hair to bald you go through an entire continuum of loss of hair. With every single hair loss, you reach a distinct state of 'having hair'.

Similarly, consider the proposition that an ape-like creature evolved into a human through 500,000 generations of life. If you could line up all 500,000 animals in a row, each individual generation would look indistinguishable from the previous or the next. It would absolutely appear that animals reproduce 'after their kind'. However, when you compare generation 1 with generation 500,000, you see significant differences (just like when you go from full head of hair to no hair). And it would be equally difficult and arbitrary to try to draw a line in between generations and say 'this is where apes reproduced to create humans'. Any such line is arbitrary. When someone claims that humans have been around for 100,000 years, what they are doing is drawing an arbitrary line in that 500,000 generation sequence and saying that this is about where they think the differences are great enough to consider the new species distinct enough from the original ancestor to be called something else.

I'm not stating the above as fact - I'm just trying to offer a laymen explanation of the theory that shows why your questions demonstrate a misunderstanding of the idea.


Quote:

...and saying monkeys to man evolution is true is also an faith based claim. One has to believe that this is the reality of the human origin story. It's a faith taught in the classroom through a deceptive practice of bait-and-switch.

Science requires the acceptance of certain assumptions or presuppositions. It requires assumptions that the natural world is observable and understandable. It generally assumes causality. It assumes that empirical evidence is reliable. And it assumes that natural 'laws' are consistent across time and space. You can add others to this list, but I feel its a good enough start.

Insomuch as science requires us to accept these assumptions, you could call science 'faith based'. With a liberal enough definition of faith, we can say that EVERY claim is faith based. I can say that the claim that 'plants need light to grow' is faith based. It requires that we have faith that what we observe about plants and light is reliable. It requires we have faith about the basic comprehensiveness of reality. It requires that we have faith that we exist and aren't living in a simulation.

My position is that macro evolution is currently the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life. I don't hold it as some incontrovertible truth or fact. I don't claim that I fully understand it nor that it is fully understood by others. I don't base my life, values, purpose, meaning, or anything else on this position. If new information comes to light that changes my opinion on what is the most reasonable explanation for diversity of life, I will gladly modify and update my position.

With the intent of potentially exploring why I don't agree with comparing 'faith in evolution' to 'religious faith', I would like to ask the following question: Is there any hypothetical physical evidence that could be found or identified that would cause you to change your mind about whether humans share common ancestry with apes and other mammals? If the answer is yes, please explain what evidence you need. If the answer is 'no', then surely you must admit a distinction between my 'faith' and yours.


Quote:

There's a difference between not believing the theory and not understanding the theory. I don't have enough faith to believe what's being sold. Millions of years ago animals did not reproduce after their kind and humans are a products of non-humans sexual intercourse.

How can you say you don't believe something if you do not understand it?

I mean. . . If I said that I don't believe in Christianity because I don't see any evidence that Jesus rode Pegasus into battle at Gondor to free the people of middle Earth from Lord Voldemort . . . . you'd say something like "Well yeah, thats not Christianity. . . . I don't believe that either.". How would it make any sense for me to reject Christianity if thats what I thought it was?
DirtDiver
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Rocag said:

Regarding "kinds", there are some pretty obvious examples of how those claims don't really make sense when faced with the real world but evolution does. Let's take as an example ring species. The basic description of a ring species is a situation in which there is a chain of species which can successfully interbreed. Species A can interbreed with Species B which can interbreed with Species C which can interbreed with Species D and so on. By your definition, they'd all be the same "kind". But when we try and link the opposite ends of the chain (Species A with Species D, for example) we find that they are unable to interbreed. From an evolutionary standpoint, this makes perfect sense. But without evolution, you're going to have difficulty explaining it in any self consistent manner.


This is actually quite easy to explain with dogs. Think about a teacup chihuahua and a Great Dane. For mechanical reasons they are not able to interbreed but they are both "kinds" of dogs. *I personally witnessed this when my step-moms tea-cup chihuahua went into head and the male lab almost broke destroyed his man-parts on the cement trying to reproduce. Both are "kinds' of dogs and no-less a kind of dog because they cannot functionally breed. They are not a kind of bird or hippo.


Quote:

Regarding matter and time, my objection was with the "come into existence" part. They could have always existed in some form. The Big Bang isn't necessarily the beginning of all things.

All options are possible. Are all options reasonable? Does the evidence point to the universe having a beginning or being eternal?


The "monkey to man" claim is not a synonymous phrase as common ancestry. No one is arguing man is descended from monkeys, just that we have a common ancestor. The repeated use of the phrase exposes either ignorance for what evolution states or an informed decision to misrepresent it.

Let's say this claim is true that no one is arguing man is descended from monkeys. Monkeys to Man examples The claim that humans and monkeys both originated from a common ancestor isn't any better. This implies that humans were a product of non-human to human- reproduction and that monkeys were/are a product of this same non-monkey to monkey reproduction and they branched out. There is zero reason scientifically, historically, or archaeologically to believe this is true.

The biblical claim is that humans are distinct from the rest of creation. They were made to rule and reign over the earth and animals. They reproduce after their kind. These claims match what we all observe.


Quote:

Furthermore, natural selection is not evolution. Common ancestry isn't evolution either. Related concepts, absolutely, but not interchangeable phrases.


You and I are in 100 percent agreement when you say natural selection and common ancestry are not interchangeable terms. This however is not how this concept is being sold in the class room. In addition, you will see how this term has been used in this very thread to mean both things.


Quote:

If we find life on other planets it likely would not share common ancestry with life on Earth but would still have been shaped by evolution.
Consider the presuppositional bias towards the theory of evolution here. If we hypothetically find life on other planets we can conclude that the life has been shaped by evolution (without testing or experimentation).

When you say it's been shaped by evolution, can you explain what you mean if it's not natural selection or common ancestry or simply that we observe living things change?


Quote:

We can direct evolutionary changes through genetic engineering which is not natural selection.

Yes. An intelligent mind can genetically alter genes. While this is a change (evolution) this is not type of evolution one claims is responsible for life on earth.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

I'm not sure I follow. Evolution is clearly scientifically observed today - even if you think that process is limited to superficial possibilities. Supernatural creation is certainly not scientifically observed today. In fact, I'm not sure that it would be observable at all. What would natural evidence of the supernatural even look like?

This goes back to the definition of terms. When you say evolution is observed today, what exactly are you talking about? If you are talking about the change we get with selective breeding or drug resistant bacteria then you and I agree that evolution is observed today. I would call this natural selection. If we had the human element to genetic altering then it's intelligent mind selection.

Supernatural creation was a singularity in the same way the big bang that produced our universe is a singularity and no humans existed to observe it. God created and set in motion the reproductive processes that we observe today but is not continuously creating from nothing.

Natural evidence of the supernatural: Fantastic question! Without direct revelation this can be very challenging.

We exist.
We live - have life.
We observe that life comes from life.
We can look at the human population through history and infer that human life has a beginning.
We observe that humans produce humans and can must conclude there was a starting point.
What is the best explanation for this starting point?
We are intelligent people with the ability to love, hate, do science, math.
We are contingent beings and do not have life within ourselves.
We live on a rock floating around in the inhospitable space.
We observe the finetuning and complex design in the universe.
Humans live life as if there's meaning and purpose.

Via direct revelation - the Biblical text.
We have a document that details the purpose of the sun and moon that is universally applies to humanity whether they have access to the text or not.
We have a description of the purpose of humanity that fits our reality.
We have animals that reproduce after their "kind" which we observe in reality.
We have a purpose given to the first two humans that matches what we observe in reality.
We live under a detailed cursed planet which we observe applies to all humanity.
We have a catastrophic global flood which best accounts for rock layers and fossils.
We have an ancient text that matches what's in the ground - archaeology.
We have external sources that corroborate biblical events.
We have clear events described in detail that occur in the future - evidence of a God outside of time.

The 'natural evidence' we see detailed in the Biblical text matches our reality better than the alternatives.


Quote:

You are very clearly creating strawman arguments against the theory of evolution. Evolution does not make the claim that animals reproduce to create different 'kinds' or species in the sense you are describing. As Jabin put it, evolution proposes an unbroken continuum of change.

I think that you accept the concept of reproduction with variation. Evolution proposes that the cumulative sum total of those variations over very long time periods can create large enough divergences such that the organisms descendent from the original can be considered distinct enough to be considered different species. In this scenario, you could have several hundred thousand generations between one 'kind' evolving into a different 'kind'. And each generation is only slightly modified from the generation before or after. So, apes did not reproduce to create humans. Apes reproduced to create a slightly modified ape. And that offspring created a slightly more modified ape. And that slightly more modified ape reproduced to create an even more slightly modified ape. And if this is repeated a million times, those slight variations add up to become more significant variations.
It's not a strawman. I'm not convinced that there was ape 'kind' that over 500,000 years turned into a human or that there was a mysterious common ancestor kind that over 500,000/millions of years of reproduction turned into an ape kind or a human kind. I gave an example of dog reproduction above where through selective breeding reproduction is not naturally functional but the animal remains a 'kind' of dog.

There's no scientific reason to believe that apes and humans have the same common ancestor.
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Similarly, consider the proposition that an ape-like creature evolved into a human through 500,000 generations of life. If you could line up all 500,000 animals in a row, each individual generation would look indistinguishable from the previous or the next. It would absolutely appear that animals reproduce 'after their kind'. However, when you compare generation 1 with generation 500,000, you see significant differences (just like when you go from full head of hair to no hair). And it would be equally difficult and arbitrary to try to draw a line in between generations and say 'this is where apes reproduced to create humans'. Any such line is arbitrary. When someone claims that humans have been around for 100,000 years, what they are doing is drawing an arbitrary line in that 500,000 generation sequence and saying that this is about where they think the differences are great enough to consider the new species distinct enough from the original ancestor to be called something else.

I'm not stating the above as fact - I'm just trying to offer a laymen explanation of the theory that shows why your questions demonstrate a misunderstanding of the idea.



Your understanding description of the theory 100 percent matches mine. The issue is, I don't buy it based upon the lack of evidence and better evidence for an alternate explanation for our existence.


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Science requires the acceptance of certain assumptions or presuppositions. It requires assumptions that the natural world is observable and understandable. It generally assumes causality. It assumes that empirical evidence is reliable. And it assumes that natural 'laws' are consistent across time and space. You can add others to this list, but I feel its a good enough start.

Insomuch as science requires us to accept these assumptions, you could call science 'faith based'. With a liberal enough definition of faith, we can say that EVERY claim is faith based. I can say that the claim that 'plants need light to grow' is faith based. It requires that we have faith that what we observe about plants and light is reliable. It requires we have faith about the basic comprehensiveness of reality. It requires that we have faith that we exist and aren't living in a simulation.

My position is that macro evolution is currently the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life. I don't hold it as some incontrovertible truth or fact. I don't claim that I fully understand it nor that it is fully understood by others. I don't base my life, values, purpose, meaning, or anything else on this position. If new information comes to light that changes my opinion on what is the most reasonable explanation for diversity of life, I will gladly modify and update my position.

With the intent of potentially exploring why I don't agree with comparing 'faith in evolution' to 'religious faith', I would like to ask the following question: Is there any hypothetical physical evidence that could be found or identified that would cause you to change your mind about whether humans share common ancestry with apes and other mammals? If the answer is yes, please explain what evidence you need. If the answer is 'no', then surely you must admit a distinction between my 'faith' and yours.

I really appreciate the intellectual honesty here. The maco-evolutionary claims are all faith based claims as we cannot experiment with claims and we were not there to witness them. It's faith in the scientists who made the claims or faith in matching the claims with the what you personally observe in nature.

Like your belief in the evidence pointing to evolution, I believe (faith) that the evidence points to the creation account in Genesis being the best description of the creation of our universe, human origins, animal history and reproduction, our reality and what we see in the ground through the fossil record.

Physical evidence that would change my mind about common ancestry?
1. The Bible would have to be discredited. Example from first 5 books. Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, (you can go there and dig out sulfur balls and light them on fire today), Gezer (human sacrifice to the false Gods).
2. Jesus would have to be discredited.
3. The supernatural fingerprint of God in the Biblical text through fulfilled prophesy would have to disappear from the historical records.

*The historical, archeological, supernatural, manuscript, character of Jesus, detailed creation account, and philosophical evidence is so compelling and matches what I we see in reality and universally applies to all humanity that I can trust it when it details the creation account.

Apart from that I honestly cannot detail what level of evidence I would need to see to accept common ancestry:
I would want to see a convincing explanation of origins: where did that common ancestor come from and so on until you get the first living human?
There are lots of theories but no evidence.
How did life start?
How does one explain love, rationality, justice, reason, organization from animals creatures without these abilities?
kurt vonnegut
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Real quick - I think that if you believe in a 6000 year old universe, we are kind of talking past one another. There is a fundamental incompatibility of our base assumptions that means we aren't going to make progress here.



DirtDiver
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kurt vonnegut said:


Real quick - I think that if you believe in a 6000 year old universe, we are kind of talking past one another. There is a fundamental incompatibility of our base assumptions that means we aren't going to make progress here.

While I'm convinced that the origins in our universe are best explained by the Genesis account (6,000) year view. I'm not arguing from this point. There are many faithful believes in Jesus that hold to an old universe view. I respectfully disagree with them.

Going back to this example: Starlight taking millions of years to travel.

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

If there is no God: Order, design systems, life, was all a product of chaos, explosions, reactions in space.
Biblical account: God told us that he created the stars, sun, and moon with a specific purpose.

When a person considers the cosmos and light travel AND assumes it wasn't created and designed, then I agree that the universe appears very very old. However when we have the Creator of the universe giving us specific details about the creation account, the timing, and purpose statements of the moon, sun, and stars, how animals reproduce, does this explanation best describe what we see in the natural world?

I'm convinced that what we see in nature best aligns with the biblical origin story of the universe and that there are way more 'miracles' and 'faith' requirements with the molecules to monkey to man evolution, or apes sharing a common ancestor with humanity.

If we read the creation account with a critical mind, we also observe that God created: Plants with fruit and seeds in them vs just the seeds. He created trees bearing fruit. How old must a tree be to bear fruit? He create man and woman who are capable of speech vs an infant or a fertilized egg. He created the birds of the air not the eggs in the nest. The creation account is a mature description in which we would have differing levels of maturity. (baby birds may fly sooner than a seed can become a tree bearing fruit).

I totally get it when people observe a universe with the signs of maturity. God was not being deceptive because He told us how He did it and in some instances why and that aligns best aligns with what we observe.

kurt vonnegut
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DirtDiver said:


When a person considers the cosmos and light travel AND assumes it wasn't created and designed, then I agree that the universe appears very very old. However when we have the Creator of the universe giving us specific details about the creation account, the timing, and purpose statements of the moon, sun, and stars, how animals reproduce, does this explanation best describe what we see in the natural world?

I think that one relevant question to ask here is "Is there specific information about the universe included in Genesis that ancient people could not have known? Or is it just common observation?"

What are the descriptions of the world we see that Genesis provides us: Day is distinct from night. Land is distinct from water. Water is distinct from sky. Water gathers to form bodies of water. Seeds produce plants. An apple seed produces an apple tree. Stars are different during different times of the year. Birds reproduce to make birds. And animals reproduce to make animals.

Does the fact that there are elements within Genesis that match our observation mean that the information was divinely provided to us? 3000 years ago, our ancestors had already been farming and domesticating animals for 8,000+ years. They understood all of this. They understood how day and night worked. How seasons worked. How reproduction worked.

Does Genesis actually provide a purpose statement for the sun, moon, and stars? While it affirms their existence and describes their function in helping us distinguish day from night and track the seasons, it also incorrectly identifies the moon as a light source. This description is just a reflection of how humans have used these celestial bodies rather than a statement of their intended purpose. If I use my coffee mug as a paper weight, that doesn't mean that it was designed for the purpose of being a paper weight. I've only described a way in which I've used something that exists.

---------

One more thought -
Today we observe the shifting of tectonic plates and the rising of mountain ranges. If God created the universe 6000 years ago, these mountain ranges would have been created as mature mountain ranges. We would still observe the tectonic movement and slow changing of the mountains. The geological processes are still valid - its just that you think they were created sorta mid-process.

My question to you is this: If God had not created mountain ranges as mature, is it reasonable to think that if the Earth was given sufficient time, the geological process we do observe would be capable of producing a mountain range?

Or maybe I could ask, if the Earth is still here in 100 million years, is it reasonable to think that the planet's geological structures will be greatly changed?
Aggrad08
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Can you at least see that a person without a strong belief in the exact interpretation you are arguing for would see starlight as a definitive disproof of a young earth assertion?

heteroscedasticity
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I've been on TexAgs boards since 1998 and the anti-evolution religious types are still posting the same-old ignorant takes on Evolution as back then.
BluHorseShu
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heteroscedasticity said:

I've been on TexAgs boards since 1998 and the anti-evolution religious types are still posting the same-old ignorant takes on Evolution as back then.
Hot take noted. I'm sure no one here realizes this debate has been going on for centuries otherwise wouldn't continue because men do not like to discuss and debate things.

DirtDiver
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kurt vonnegut said:

DirtDiver said:


When a person considers the cosmos and light travel AND assumes it wasn't created and designed, then I agree that the universe appears very very old. However when we have the Creator of the universe giving us specific details about the creation account, the timing, and purpose statements of the moon, sun, and stars, how animals reproduce, does this explanation best describe what we see in the natural world?

I think that one relevant question to ask here is "Is there specific information about the universe included in Genesis that ancient people could not have known? Or is it just common observation?"

What are the descriptions of the world we see that Genesis provides us: Day is distinct from night. Land is distinct from water. Water is distinct from sky. Water gathers to form bodies of water. Seeds produce plants. An apple seed produces an apple tree. Stars are different during different times of the year. Birds reproduce to make birds. And animals reproduce to make animals.

Does the fact that there are elements within Genesis that match our observation mean that the information was divinely provided to us? 3000 years ago, our ancestors had already been farming and domesticating animals for 8,000+ years. They understood all of this. They understood how day and night worked. How seasons worked. How reproduction worked.

Does Genesis actually provide a purpose statement for the sun, moon, and stars? While it affirms their existence and describes their function in helping us distinguish day from night and track the seasons, it also incorrectly identifies the moon as a light source. This description is just a reflection of how humans have used these celestial bodies rather than a statement of their intended purpose. If I use my coffee mug as a paper weight, that doesn't mean that it was designed for the purpose of being a paper weight. I've only described a way in which I've used something that exists.

---------

One more thought -
Today we observe the shifting of tectonic plates and the rising of mountain ranges. If God created the universe 6000 years ago, these mountain ranges would have been created as mature mountain ranges. We would still observe the tectonic movement and slow changing of the mountains. The geological processes are still valid - its just that you think they were created sorta mid-process.

My question to you is this: If God had not created mountain ranges as mature, is it reasonable to think that if the Earth was given sufficient time, the geological process we do observe would be capable of producing a mountain range?

Or maybe I could ask, if the Earth is still here in 100 million years, is it reasonable to think that the planet's geological structures will be greatly changed?



Quote:

I think that one relevant question to ask here is "Is there specific information about the universe included in Genesis that ancient people could not have known? Or is it just common observation?"

You may have answered this question with the point on moonlight being a reflection of sunlight. I do not know if the ancients would have known if this was a reflection of sunlight or not. This knowledge or lack of knowledge would not in anyway discredit the story. I doubt they would have had a discussion about continuums but I'm convinced that they were as intelligent as we are today and would have understood it if explained. (matter must exist in space and at a point in time)


Quote:

Does the fact that there are elements within Genesis that match our observation mean that the information was divinely provided to us?
No. The elements within Genesis that match our observation is not enough alone to lead to divine inspiration. The elements within Genesis is a body of evidence that when compared with the alternate explanations of the beginnings of the universe can be examined.
Claim:
Animals reproduce after their kind: observed today with billions of test cases across the globe
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind or life from non life: evidence?

Divine inspiration:
1. The descriptions of nature match reality (even human nature)
2. The descriptions of history match other historical records.
3. The descriptions of events match archaeology (Sodom and Gommorah, Jericho)
4. Theirs a claim of divine inspiration.
5. Theirs credible eyewitness testimony of the claims (people had nothing to gain)
6. Theirs supernatural evidence in fulfilled prophesies recorded in the text and in history not recorded in the text.
7. There's the credibility of Jesus.


Quote:

Does Genesis actually provide a purpose statement for the sun, moon, and stars? While it affirms their existence and describes their function in helping us distinguish day from night and track the seasons, it also incorrectly identifies the moon as a light source. This description is just a reflection of how humans have used these celestial bodies rather than a statement of their intended purpose. If I use my coffee mug as a paper weight, that doesn't mean that it was designed for the purpose of being a paper weight. I've only described a way in which I've used something that exist

These are the purpose statements:
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night
and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens nd to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
to give light on the earth"
God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night;
He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth

Genesis is not an exhaustive book on astro-physics or taxonomy, we should not read it as such. We know that moonlight is really sunlight. God was not interested in giving us this level of detail. Another example: When Jesus says" I am the door of the sheep. He's not telling us that he's a wooden post or board.

The creation account does give us enough information to understand some of the purposes for different objects in the creation (not exhaustively). And we learn that God created with order, power, intent, creative diversity. There's enough information that corresponds with reality that I think it adequately eliminates other options.

The order and intent contradicts both ancient and modern theories of life, personality, emotion, and rationality being a product of chaos, explosions, big bangs, etc.


Quote:

Today we observe the shifting of tectonic plates and the rising of mountain ranges. If God created the universe 6000 years ago, these mountain ranges would have been created as mature mountain ranges. We would still observe the tectonic movement and slow changing of the mountains. The geological processes are still valid - its just that you think they were created sorta mid-process.

My question to you is this: If God had not created mountain ranges as mature, is it reasonable to think that if the Earth was given sufficient time, the geological process we do observe would be capable of producing a mountain range?

First part correct with 1 qualification (flood event impact on mountains). I'm not 100 percent sure what you are asking with the last question. If you are saying, if we assume there is no God or creation event, would geological processes we observe be capable of producing a mountain range?

Maybe?

1. I believe there were mountains on Earth as part of the creation for the textual reasons below.
2. I don't know how many mountains were impacted/changed elevation during the cataclysmic event of the global flood.
3. I don't know how much time would be required to form a mountain range apart from cataclysmic events.

Assuming no God and unlimited time, I don't see why geological processes couldn't produce mountain ranges. I think God set many processes in motion at creation: The way the earth rotates, geological processes, the natural processes of reproduction, etc.

Here are a few observations I have about mountains from the biblical text and observation
1. Some of the highest mountains in the world have sea life fossils/ Everest. (I have seen this in some very high places in Texas as well
2. Mountain and rocks are often in layers with crazy bends that best indicates hydrologic sorting vs slowly deposited over time.

Text:

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep burst open, and the floodgates of the sky were opened

Genesis: 7:18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. 20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. 21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

Genesis 8:
The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.

Psalms 104
He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
The waters were standing above the mountains.
7 At Your rebuke they fled,
At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away.
8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down
To the place which You established for them.
9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over,
So that they will not return to cover the earth.


Quote:

Or maybe I could ask, if the Earth is still here in 100 million years, is it reasonable to think that the planet's geological structures will be greatly changed?
Absolutely. Note this from Peter... For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." There will be more tectonic activity and erosion.

Rocag
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Quote:

Claim:
Animals reproduce after their kind: observed today with billions of test cases across the globe
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind or life from non life: evidence?
I'd point out again that this is not something claimed by evolution and you only think it is because you don't understand evolution to begin with. You are saying, and seem to believe, that speciation (the process by which one species evolves into another) occurs over a single generation. That is not what the theory of evolution states. In fact if we saw that occur in nature it would be good evidence that our understanding of evolution is wrong.

Individual organisms do not evolve. Populations do.
DirtDiver
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Aggrad08 said:

Can you at least see that a person without a strong belief in the exact interpretation you are arguing for would see starlight as a definitive disproof of a young earth assertion?

Absolutely. Stars are very far away and it would take hundreds of millions or more light years away and it would take that long to travel assuming no supernatural creation.

Without a credible creation account we can only make guesses. God has left us with a descriptive account that details a specific purpose for stars and we benefit from being able to see that beauty from earth today. Given the mature creation account and ascribed purpose given from a miraculous creator, the starlight distance does not discredit the biblical creation account.



DirtDiver
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Rocag said:

Quote:

Claim:
Animals reproduce after their kind: observed today with billions of test cases across the globe
Animals at one time did not reproduce after their kind or life from non life: evidence?
I'd point out again that this is not something claimed by evolution and you only think it is because you don't understand evolution to begin with. You are saying, and seem to believe, that speciation (the process by which one species evolves into another) occurs over a single generation. That is not what the theory of evolution states. In fact if we saw that occur in nature it would be good evidence that our understanding of evolution is wrong.

Individual organisms do not evolve. Populations do.


I'm claiming that speciation (the process by which one species evolves into another) or specifically one "kind" of animal has evolved into another "kind' of animal has never occurred since the foundation of the world.

Do people when teaching the theory of evolution teach the following?
Humans did not exist at one point in history?
Humans and apes are a product of a common ancestor that was not human?
Do humans and apes share a common ancestor as bats and dolphins?




I understand the theory, I don't have enough faith or evidence to believe the theory. The evidence provided in the Genesis account matches reality from the purpose of the sun and moon, animal reproduction, and humanities unique place in creation and purpose to rule over the earth and creation.
Rocag
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AG
I absolutely think the geological record shows that modern humans simply did not exist more than a few hundred thousand years ago. And that there are countless species that once existed on this planet that don't any more. If there were a point in history in which all species that have ever existed were all alive at the same time, why don't we ever see that reflected in the geological record?

It's not about "faith". It's about recognizing that everything we see about the world doesn't make sense through a young Earth creationist lens.
DirtDiver
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Rocag said:

I absolutely think the geological record shows that modern humans simply did not exist more than a few hundred thousand years ago. And that there are countless species that once existed on this planet that don't any more. If there were a point in history in which all species that have ever existed were all alive at the same time, why don't we ever see that reflected in the geological record?

It's not about "faith". It's about recognizing that everything we see about the world doesn't make sense through a young Earth creationist lens.

What is the number 1 assumption of the geologic record?

We have been taught from an early age that the geologic record is a time scale. This view is publicly funded and has been unchallenged in the education system. Because of our faith in our teachers at a young age and the fact that we have not been taught that others options exist, the door has been closed in our minds for critical examination.

If we were to remove all assumptions that the geologic record is a timescale, what do we see?

Geologist Andrew Snelling makes some compelling points in this 20 minute video. (Talks slow - recommend increasing playback speed.)





Quote:

If all of the species that ever existed were alive at the same time, why don't we see them?
According to this article it is believed that about 75% of dinosaurs remain to be discovered: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0606028103

I think there's also an assumption in this question. There's the assumption that all animals that existed died in such a way to be fossilized during the mass extension event.

Incompleteness of the Fossil Record
Each fossil discovery represents a snapshot of the process of evolution. Because of the specialized and rare conditions required for a biological structure to fossilize, many important species or groups may never leave fossils at all. Even if they do leave fossils, humans may never find themfor example, if they are buried under hundreds of feet of ice in Antarctica. The number of species known about through the fossil record is less than 5% of the number of species alive today. Fossilized species may represent less than 1% of all the species that have ever lived.

kurt vonnegut
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For every one geologist you can find that believes that geological evidence points to a young Earth, how many do you think I could find that believe in an old Earth? 100? 1000? I don't bring this up to suggest that Truth is a function of human consensus, but rather point out that if there was overwhelming evidence for a young Earth, then you must be suggesting an absolutely massive conspiracy theory that includes 99% of the world's scientists. This conspiracy would have to span every culture and society across the planet. And it would have to include the overwhelming majority of Christian scientists as well. What incentive would all of the world's Christian scientists have for discounting the literal interpretation of Genesis? It seems plain to me that if there was some bullet proof evidence of a young Earth, then even an agnostic position about the existence of God would be on terribly shaky ground.

Are the world's scientists all lying to us? Or is it the case that only the really smart scientists are able to see that we have a young Earth and everyone else is dumb. I've certainly presented this as a false dichotomy, but I'd be curious to know your take.

------------------

It is curious to me that there seems to be an acknowledgement of only certain evidences of an old Earth by way of suggesting that God created a mature planet.

Starlight from a star billions of light years away is explained by a God that created that light already 'on its way'. An expanding universe suggesting billions of years is explained by a God that created the universe pre-exploded and already at a 14 billion year level of maturity. Mountain ranges subject to geological forces is explained by a God that created the mountains as though they had been undergoing this process for millions of years. The moon pre-built with a peppering of craters which would have indicated that it has been the subject of deep time.

But, then we turn to other geological phenomenon and arrive at conclusions that they show evidence of a young Earth. Literally the only geologists that think the red rocks of Sedona or the Grand Canyon formed in a single flood event are those who are Christian YECs. Could a God that created 10 billion year old starlight not also create mountains and canyons that were pre-eroded and already showing signs of maturity?

And why not the same argument for radiometric dating? Could God not have created material on the planet with preset levels of unstable product and its decay product?

And a God that can do all this could certainly also create life that shows signs of being the product of billions of years of some process.

These things seems like they would be a consistent application of 'God created a mature universe'.

----------------------


Quote:

I'm claiming that speciation (the process by which one species evolves into another) or specifically one "kind" of animal has evolved into another "kind' of animal has never occurred since the foundation of the world.

Do people when teaching the theory of evolution teach the following?
Humans did not exist at one point in history?
Humans and apes are a product of a common ancestor that was not human?
Do humans and apes share a common ancestor as bats and dolphins?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Ignoring again that 'kind' is not a recognized scientific term in biology. . . .Yes, we've never observed a theropod evolve into a bird. Or a fish into a mammal. The theory of evolution suggests that the scale of change that you would call 'one kind to another kind' is something that takes millions of years. Saying that we haven't observed in the last couple hundred years is not observational evidence that counts against the theory of evolution.

You keep pointing to the fact that we haven't observed something like a reptile give birth to a human as though thats meaningful, when it is not. We also have not observed God creating the universe. Therefore, it didn't happen, right?


Quote:

Here are a few observations I have about mountains from the biblical text and observation
1. Some of the highest mountains in the world have sea life fossils/ Everest. (I have seen this in some very high places in Texas as well
2. Mountain and rocks are often in layers with crazy bends that best indicates hydrologic sorting vs slowly deposited over time.

All of this is explained by an old Earth that has been subject to billions of years of geological process. The difference here is that science has ability to predict where you'll find certain types of fossils, which layers you'll find fossils, where you'll find 'crazy bends' in rock layers and formations.


-------------------


Quote:

The elements within Genesis is a body of evidence that when compared with the alternate explanations of the beginnings of the universe can be examined.

Quote:

The evidence provided in the Genesis account matches reality from the purpose of the sun and moon, animal reproduction, and humanities unique place in creation and purpose to rule over the earth and creation.

I still fail to see what information Genesis provides us that counts as evidence. The only thing Genesis proves is that an author 3000 years ago was able to acknowledge that there was night, day, a sun, a moon, and that an animals offspring tends to resemble its parents. My kids could have told you all of this when they were 3. Like I said before, if Genesis had provided information that no one of that age could have possibly known. . . . that would be significant.

-----------------

Why are 99% of the species to ever live now extinct?

Why does the Bible never mention organisms that science thinks predates humans. Surely, if the planet was covered with gigantic reptilian creatures like dinosaurs at the time of Moses, he would have said something, right? The Bible only mentions animals like lions, bears, wolves, foxes, leopards, sheep, goats, ox, cattle, donkeys, horse, deer, camel, eagles, hawks, doves, fish, whales, bees, locusts, ants, and snakes. Millions of creatures have existed on this planet and the only ones that were mentioned are ones that are still alive today? Isn't that suspicious? Like maybe the authors had no clue that millions of species had already lived and gone extinct on the planet?

-----------------
Last part -

Lets assume that we do have an old Earth and that all of life evolved from common ancestry. What are things you would expect to see that we don't see today? If life had started (somehow) and evolved for billions of years then we would expect to see different stages of life at different times. You'd expect to see patterns in biology. You'd expect to see 'transitional' fossils. You'd expect our fossil record and geological dating to demonstrate a distinct chronology. There would be massive genetic evidence showing undeniable similarities between closely related organisms. Similarities in embryonic development, convergent evolutions, vestigial structures and vestigial genetic coding, increasing complexity over time, observations of imperfect design.

I guess what am I asking with this last part here is this: If you were to assume an old Earth with billions of years of biological evolution - what is the observation that we are missing? What is the thing we should be seeing, but are not?






Rocag
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Quote:

We have been taught from an early age that the geologic record is a time scale. This view is publicly funded and has been unchallenged in the education system. Because of our faith in our teachers at a young age and the fact that we have not been taught that others options exist, the door has been closed in our minds for critical examination.
This is silly. Lots of ideas that have been widely accepted at one point have then been rejected due to evidence showing they are incorrect. Why is that simply impossible in this one specific case? The reason there hasn't been a serious challenge to the way we view the geological record is because there is a lot of evidence to support it.

And you're correct that most animals don't leave behind a fossil for us to find. Presumably, there are countless species that existed at one time that we simply don't have a fossil example of. But that fact doesn't actually help your argument. Because we do have lots of fossils to study and we can pretty easily spot some patterns about where they are found. And I simply don't see how the flood explanation makes any sense in light of the clearly available evidence.

But let's take the idea of a global flood seriously. If true, it would mean there was a point in time within the last 6,000 years that every living land animal on the planet was concentrated in one small location with only a few breeding pairs of that species left alive. Make some predictions based on that fact about what we should expect to see in the world around us and let's see how well it holds up.
DirtDiver
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For every one geologist you can find that believes that geological evidence points to a young Earth, how many do you think I could find that believe in an old Earth? 100? 1000? I don't bring this up to suggest that Truth is a function of human consensus, but rather point out that if there was overwhelming evidence for a young Earth, then you must be suggesting an absolutely massive conspiracy theory that includes 99% of the world's scientists. This conspiracy would have to span every culture and society across the planet. And it would have to include the overwhelming majority of Christian scientists as well. What incentive would all of the world's Christian scientists have for discounting the literal interpretation of Genesis? It seems plain to me that if there was some bullet proof evidence of a young Earth, then even an agnostic position about the existence of God would be on terribly shaky ground.

Are the world's scientists all lying to us? Or is it the case that only the really smart scientists are able to see that we have a young Earth and everyone else is dumb. I've certainly presented this as a false dichotomy, but I'd be curious to know your take.
Here are my thoughts as to "why do so many scientist believe that the earth is millions of years old?"
1. They believe what they have been taught since elementary school about the age of the universe/earth.
2. The Bible is not allowed in most school systems public or private and this is where we get most scientists from.
3. They have never been presented with the evidence against an old earth view.
4. Spiritual: I want to be my own god and determine my own rules. Many times the reason for disbelief is based upon the evidence.
5. Are all of the world scientists lying too us? About molecules to man evolution and the age of the universe? I believe so. I believe most are doing it out of ignorance vs maliciousness.

I cannot expect a majority of people to believe a set of claims that they have never been exposed to or challenged. When a student has been taught from elementary school through college that the word is a certain age, it takes a bit of time and examining the evidence to overturn that belief.


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It is curious to me that there seems to be an acknowledgement of only certain evidences of an old Earth by way of suggesting that God created a mature planet.

Starlight from a star billions of light years away is explained by a God that created that light already 'on its way'. An expanding universe suggesting billions of years is explained by a God that created the universe pre-exploded and already at a 14 billion year level of maturity. Mountain ranges subject to geological forces is explained by a God that created the mountains as though they had been undergoing this process for millions of years. The moon pre-built with a peppering of craters which would have indicated that it has been the subject of deep time.

The description of the mature creation comes from the Biblical text. God created the stars, moon, and sun specifically to be visible to you and me. (purpose, power, intent). He told us how He did it. Also note some of the progression in the days of creation: He formed man out of the ground vs instant existence and then breathed life into Him, he formed woman out of the man, the earth brought forth vegetation. There's a speeding of natural process within some of the days so it's not a far fetch to believe that He sped up the speed of light (if He did this vs instant visibility).

Age of mountains - I don't know what level of maturity the mountains would have exhibited on the day of creation. For most people today age is based upon the assumption that rocks are in layers over long process of time vs in layers by a global flood. The most reasonable explanation for rocks in layers and fossils is a global flood vs every other theory.

Moon craters: don't know enough about this one. How does one determine the age of the universe by craters? How many assumptions are made to draw this conclusion?

Tangent - the moon. This should completely rock our world: Prophesy of the blood moon in the OT book of Joel, Peter quoted Joel in Acts 2 saying they saw the event. We can date the crucifixion by the blood moon. This implies that the moment created the universe He knew the exact moment His Son would pay the price for our sins.

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But, then we turn to other geological phenomenon and arrive at conclusions that they show evidence of a young Earth. Literally the only geologists that think the red rocks of Sedona or the Grand Canyon formed in a single flood event are those who are Christian YECs. Could a God that created 10 billion year old starlight not also create mountains and canyons that were pre-eroded and already showing signs of maturity?
He absolutely could have created the grand canyon that way. I'm not sure the point you are trying to make: If we examine the Genesis account in detail he created different things with different ages of maturity (from our perspective).
The starlight from space appears to be one age
Birds with the ability to fly would be a different age of maturity (birds vs eggs)
Humans with maturity would be a different age of maturity
Trees with fruit and seeds in them would be a different age.


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And why not the same argument for radiometric dating? Could God not have created material on the planet with preset levels of unstable product and its decay product?

And a God that can do all this could certainly also create life that shows signs of being the product of billions of years of some process.

These things seems like they would be a consistent application of 'God created a mature universe'.

All of these things are possible for God but the question is, what does the evidence point to in reality? We have an account that claims to be from God that matches our reality better than the other options.

Starlight is visible to us.
Sun and moon used for seasons, days, and year (for all across humanity without access to the Biblical account)
animals that reproduce after their kind.
the curse earth (thorns and thistles, human relationship.

If a person wants to believe in an old earth view, I can completely understand how they come to this conclusion based upon how they have been taught and given that God gave us a "mature" description of the creation.

Believing in an old earth/universe is not a reason to reject the biblical account of creation. This is the number one point I hope people can see out of all of the discussion.


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Ignoring again that 'kind' is not a recognized scientific term in biology. . . .Yes, we've never observed a theropod evolve into a bird. Or a fish into a mammal. The theory of evolution suggests that the scale of change that you would call 'one kind to another kind' is something that takes millions of years. Saying that we haven't observed in the last couple hundred years is not observational evidence that counts against the theory of evolution.

You keep pointing to the fact that we haven't observed something like a reptile give birth to a human as though thats meaningful, when it is not. We also have not observed God creating the universe. Therefore, it didn't happen, right?


The term "kind" has been understood for at least 6,000 years by mankind prior modern dictionaries. An example of "kind" Zonkeys (from a male zebra bred with a female donkey), zorses (male zebra and female horse), and hebras (male horse and female zebra) are all examples of hybrid animals. Hybrid animals are the result of the mating of two animals of the same "kind."

I wasn't there to see the creation. I believe the evidence best supports the creation accounts description of the universe vs the evolutionists claims or human origins and the universe. I don't believe you and I share a common ancestor with an ape. I believe humans have always reproduced and made humans. I see no evidence that this has ever happened in the past.


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I still fail to see what information Genesis provides us that counts as evidence. The only thing Genesis proves is that an author 3000 years ago was able to acknowledge that there was night, day, a sun, a moon, and that an animals offspring tends to resemble its parents. My kids could have told you all of this when they were 3. Like I said before, if Genesis had provided information that no one of that age could have possibly known. . . . that would be significant.
It's a creation account that competes with other origin accounts and claims to be from the creator and the book within which it is written corresponds with our reality better than the other origin stories, and is corroborated by history, archaeology, and the supernatural fingerprints.

It's the best explanation as to where we came from, why we are here, why the world is currently broken, what sin is and why it's responsible for our broken relationships, and what hope we have in life.

You are right, God has written things within his book that a 3 year old can see and comprehend and that matches with the way the world works and we send them to school and adopt theories that tell them they are a product of a cosmic accident, undesigned, and share a common ancestor with monkeys.


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Why are 99% of the species to ever live now extinct?

Where is this list of the 99% of the species compared to the ones alive today?


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Why does the Bible never mention organisms that science thinks predates humans. Surely, if the planet was covered with gigantic reptilian creatures like dinosaurs at the time of Moses, he would have said something, right? The Bible only mentions animals like lions, bears, wolves, foxes, leopards, sheep, goats, ox, cattle, donkeys, horse, deer, camel, eagles, hawks, doves, fish, whales, bees, locusts, ants, and snakes. Millions of creatures have existed on this planet and the only ones that were mentioned are ones that are still alive today? Isn't that suspicious? Like maybe the authors had no clue that millions of species had already lived and gone extinct on the planet?

Post flood conditions? Hunting, disease?

"Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins
And his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 "He bends his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are knit together.

*I'll try to address the last part tomorrow
Sapper Redux
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Quote:

"Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins
And his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 "He bends his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are knit together.


All it means is a swaying tail like a cedar. Hippos, elephants, wildebeest, all meet this description. I've seen the attempt to claim this is describing a sauropod, but their tail looks nothing like a cedar and bending down to eat grass would have been impossible.
DirtDiver
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Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

"Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins
And his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 "He bends his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are knit together.


All it means is a swaying tail like a cedar. Hippos, elephants, wildebeest, all meet this description. I've seen the attempt to claim this is describing a sauropod, but their tail looks nothing like a cedar and

You have provided 3 interpretive options for Behemoth. While those are all options which one best fits the description? If I were to get 100 people to watch a documentary on hippos I would find it highly unlikely that anyone would 1. Not describe their teeth. 2. Someone would instead to point out their tail as a primary impressive feature and compare it to a tree.

When examining the tails, I would say the dinosaur matches the description the best.

Cedars in Lebanon


Hippo tail


Dinosaur Tail



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bending down to eat grass would have been impossible.

I don't see how it's possible to come to this conclusion. Simply looking at skeleton it's more than reasonable and possible that it ate grass. It would be like finding a fossil of a giraffe and claiming it would be impossible to eat grass.




DirtDiver
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Quote:

Lets assume that we do have an old Earth and that all of life evolved from common ancestry. What are things you would expect to see that we don't see today? If life had started (somehow) and evolved for billions of years then we would expect to see different stages of life at different times. You'd expect to see patterns in biology. You'd expect to see 'transitional' fossils. You'd expect our fossil record and geological dating to demonstrate a distinct chronology. There would be massive genetic evidence showing undeniable similarities between closely related organisms. Similarities in embryonic development, convergent evolutions, vestigial structures and vestigial genetic coding, increasing complexity over time, observations of imperfect design.

I guess what am I asking with this last part here is this: If you were to assume an old Earth with billions of years of biological evolution - what is the observation that we are missing? What is the thing we should be seeing, but are not?

If we assumed that all life evolved from common ancestry I would expect to see mass hybridization/transition not only in the fossil record but living today vs distinct kinds of animals. I would expect this between all forms of life.



I would expect to see 2 celled and 3 celled organisms.
I would expect to see no value of morality amongst any animal.
I would not expect a species would be able to build a computer or an airplane.
I would expect most of the earths resources to be depleted given population growth of humanity.
No living fossils: Living fossils
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There would be massive genetic evidence showing undeniable similarities between closely related organisms. Similarities in embryonic development, convergent evolutions, vestigial structures and vestigial genetic coding, increasing complexity over time, observations of imperfect design.

Similarities amongst living creatures and embryonic development would also be an argument for the same designer. We apply this all of the time when looking at different designs from architects. Monkeys having the ability to walk upright, bears having the ability to walk upright is zero evidence that they shared a common ancestor.

Living fossils show no increasing complexity over time.
Article on Vestigial organs

In 1981, Canadian biologist Steven Scadding argued that although he had no objection to Darwinism, "vestigial organs provide no evidence for evolutionary theory." The primarily reason is that "it is difficult, if not impossible, to unambiguously identify organs totally lacking in function." Scadding cited the human appendix as an organ previously thought to be vestigial but now known to have a function.

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observations of imperfect design.
100 percent subjective as everyone is a critic. "I'm not a professional athlete or a super model therefore I'm an imperfect design?" I was born with a birth-defect therefore God made a mistake?

If one sees the evidence of an imperfect design then one would still see 'design' which assumes a designer.

100 of a perfect design can only be determined by the designer. Some of the design may be functional, artistic, or for a much deeper purpose. God's description of the creation of the universe is that is was good, and His creation of humanity was 'very good' and then we learn that all of creation was cursed. The details of the curse match our reality.

Evidence of a birth defect not being an accident in the eyes of God...
John 9


Sapper Redux
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DirtDiver said:

Sapper Redux said:

Quote:

"Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins
And his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 "He bends his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are knit together.


All it means is a swaying tail like a cedar. Hippos, elephants, wildebeest, all meet this description. I've seen the attempt to claim this is describing a sauropod, but their tail looks nothing like a cedar and

You have provided 3 interpretive options for Behemoth. While those are all options which one best fits the description? If I were to get 100 people to watch a documentary on hippos I would find it highly unlikely that anyone would 1. Not describe their teeth. 2. Someone would instead to point out their tail as a primary impressive feature and compare it to a tree.

When examining the tails, I would say the dinosaur matches the description the best.

Cedars in Lebanon


Hippo tail


Dinosaur Tail



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bending down to eat grass would have been impossible.

I don't see how it's possible to come to this conclusion. Simply looking at skeleton it's more than reasonable and possible that it ate grass. It would be like finding a fossil of a giraffe and claiming it would be impossible to eat grass.







The "cedar tree" has more to do with shape. You assume it's size because you want it to be. There are also small cedars. And of course you use grossly incorrect reconstructions of sauropods. Those animals were not surface-level grazers. It would have been almost physically impossible for many of them. This is what they looked like:

Rocag
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AG
Quote:

If we assumed that all life evolved from common ancestry I would expect to see mass hybridization/transition not only in the fossil record but living today vs distinct kinds of animals. I would expect this between all forms of life.
Are you saying you'd expect any organism to be able to reproduce with any other organism? I don't know why you'd expect that. There's no one-size-fits-all reproductive system within the animal kingdom. Why would there be? Adaptability promotes ability to survive.

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I would expect to see 2 celled and 3 celled organisms.
I would expect to see no value of morality amongst any animal.
I would not expect a species would be able to build a computer or an airplane.
I would expect most of the earths resources to be depleted given population growth of humanity.
No living fossils: Living fossils

1. Again, why? Once the jump is made to multicellular life what's the advantage to limiting the size of the organism to 2 or 3 cells?
2. Why? If a trait, such as selfless behavior on the part of the individual, increases the likelihood of survival of the population then why should we be surprised to see it? Extreme selfishness isn't always beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint.
3. Why not? Why would intelligence and tool use not be a viable evolutionary path?
4. For most of our history, humanity didn't use anywhere close to the amount of natural resources we now do. And the explosive population growth is a fairly recent phenomena as well. Give it time.
5. Yet again, why? If an organism is well suited to its environment, why shouldn't we expect it to continue on?

The "behemoth" stuff doesn't really interest me. The description is too vague and can't be used to identify any specific animal. And I also think it's a mistake to assume the author is speaking about a real animal in the first place rather than some mythological creature.
DirtDiver
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Rocag said:

Quote:

We have been taught from an early age that the geologic record is a time scale. This view is publicly funded and has been unchallenged in the education system. Because of our faith in our teachers at a young age and the fact that we have not been taught that others options exist, the door has been closed in our minds for critical examination.
This is silly. Lots of ideas that have been widely accepted at one point have then been rejected due to evidence showing they are incorrect. Why is that simply impossible in this one specific case? The reason there hasn't been a serious challenge to the way we view the geological record is because there is a lot of evidence to support it.

And you're correct that most animals don't leave behind a fossil for us to find. Presumably, there are countless species that existed at one time that we simply don't have a fossil example of. But that fact doesn't actually help your argument. Because we do have lots of fossils to study and we can pretty easily spot some patterns about where they are found. And I simply don't see how the flood explanation makes any sense in light of the clearly available evidence.


One may think it silly, but it's a reality. How many classes have you ever taken on the evidence against evolution and the evidence for creation science in school? It's been unchallenged and uninvestigated by all for decades.



Why the a global flood is the best evidence of the geologic column and fossils.
1. Rapid burial.
2. Fossils buried in sedimentary rock layers
3. Evidence that the rocks were underwater (angle of underwater structures vs surface structures). See video of Grand Canyon earlier presented.
4. Global burial
5. Sea life on mountains

Is it more reasonable to believe the mountains were covered with water or not covered with water?
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But let's take the idea of a global flood seriously. If true, it would mean there was a point in time within the last 6,000 years that every living land animal on the planet was concentrated in one small location with only a few breeding pairs of that species left alive. Make some predictions based on that fact about what we should expect to see in the world around us and let's see how well it holds up.

The animals are going to breed and reproduce and spread out over time.
Some will spread naturally on beds of floating vegetation (see the duration and quantity of floating vegetation after mount St. Helens).
Some carried in ships and boats through history.
I do not know how many land or ice bridges existed post flood.


*unknown
Human dispersion and language variation is mentioned in the Bible as a miraculous event. (Genesis 11) I don't have a reason to believe animal dispersion also occurred at this time but it's a possibility.
I would not expect 7,000 plus languages to exist if all life derived from a common ancestor.


8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth.




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