Titus 2 11

2,699 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by BusterAg
Zobel
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AG
Sure Greek has those words - "peoples" as in groups can be ethnos (nation) or laos (people).

But see two posts above. The exact problem I described is playing out in real time.

The issue is that I think it sets us up to miss a fundamental distinction St Paul makes. Christ is both the savior of all people, meaning each and every individual person. But in a very real, and very different way, He is the savior of all mankind, meaning all mankind united by our human nature. Sometimes we talk about one, sometimes the other.

This comes to bear in places like Romans 5. Nowhere does St Paul use "aner" but always anthropos, because Christ in His Humanity yes, was a man, but was also Man, the Theanthropos, the God-Man. Not an individual god and an individual man, but The God, and The Man. St Paul uses it as a play with Adam, the same that Hebrew makes between Adam and 'ish, Anthropos and Aner.

Or for example, the distinction by its use in Romans 9:20 - who are you, a man, to answer against God? It isn't that you're an individual man (aner) but that you're a human.

Or Romans 6:6, we know our old man was crucified with Him. You and I did not die on the cross, but our shared human nature, united to the divine nature in the person of Jesus Christ, was crucified with Him. And this is why all mankind is saved from Death - because of the incarnation, because of our nature being elevated and joined to the divine.

And because of that, as a consequence, each and every human is saved and may be saved.

Anyway I suspect there are two things at play. One is probably an attempt to de-gender the scriptures, the other is more mischievous but is some bias creeping in to reflect a modern individualistic approach to salvation.
Zobel
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AG
Sure Greek has those words - "peoples" as in groups can be ethnos (nation) or laos (people).

But see two posts above. The exact problem I described is playing out in real time.

The issue is that I think it sets us up to miss a fundamental distinction St Paul makes. Christ is both the savior of all people, meaning each and every individual person. But in a very real, and very different way, He is the savior of all mankind, meaning all mankind united by our human nature. Sometimes we talk about one, sometimes the other.

This comes to bear in places like Romans 5. Nowhere does St Paul use "aner" but always anthropos, because Christ in His Humanity yes, was a man, but was also Man, the Theanthropos, the God-Man. Not an individual god and an individual man, but The God, and The Man. St Paul uses it as a play with Adam, the same that Hebrew makes between Adam and 'ish, Anthropos and Aner.

Or for example, the distinction by its use in Romans 9:20 - who are you, a man, to answer against God? It isn't that you're an individual man (aner) but that you're a human.

Or Romans 6:6, we know our old man was crucified with Him. You and I did not die on the cross, but our shared human nature, united to the divine nature in the person of Jesus Christ, was crucified with Him. And this is why all mankind is saved from Death - because of the incarnation, because of our nature being elevated and joined to the divine.

And because of that, as a consequence, each and every human is saved and may be saved.

Anyway I suspect there are two things at play. One is probably an attempt to de-gender the scriptures, the other is more mischievous but is some bias creeping in to reflect a modern individualistic approach to salvation.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

My problem is that it is a repetitive theme in Titus, 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 4-10, Luke 2:10, and more. You have to explain a lot of "alls" away.

And I prefer calling it a Christian view rather than Reformed, Arminian, etc. I think the danger of that thought is you have a pre conceived theology and try to fit Scripture into that theology.

I am not trying to explain the "alls" away. Just reading the letter in its entirety and for me it is hard to see it otherwise. I'm open to hearing an alternate way to look at it.

I do agree with the spirit of trying to approach it from the same lens.
With my non Reformed lens, the entire letter makes perfect sense to me. The author gives examples of different types of people as examples about how God extends grace to all men.

It seems to me if it was limited to the elect, then the word elect would have appeared when describing these groups of people because with Reformed theology, all that matters is election, Not what group people belong to. Seems very inclusive to me.
"Elect" is used in the beginning of the letter.
10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

Shouldn't the angels in Luke 2:10 proclaim it was good news for the elect? Instead of ALL the people?

It is good news for all, but whether or not you believe in a synergistic or monergistic soteriology, some will still not believe the good news.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Shouldn't the angels in Luke 2:10 proclaim it was good news for the elect? Instead of ALL the people?

It is good news for all, but whether or not you believe in a synergistic or monergistic soteriology, some will still not believe the good news.


How is it good news for the "passed over"? They have no chance in Reformed theology.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

My problem is that it is a repetitive theme in Titus, 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 4-10, Luke 2:10, and more. You have to explain a lot of "alls" away.

And I prefer calling it a Christian view rather than Reformed, Arminian, etc. I think the danger of that thought is you have a pre conceived theology and try to fit Scripture into that theology.

I am not trying to explain the "alls" away. Just reading the letter in its entirety and for me it is hard to see it otherwise. I'm open to hearing an alternate way to look at it.

I do agree with the spirit of trying to approach it from the same lens.
With my non Reformed lens, the entire letter makes perfect sense to me. The author gives examples of different types of people as examples about how God extends grace to all men.

It seems to me if it was limited to the elect, then the word elect would have appeared when describing these groups of people because with Reformed theology, all that matters is election, Not what group people belong to. Seems very inclusive to me.
"Elect" is used in the beginning of the letter.
Fair enough. But to anyone not reading through a Reformed lens, I do not think that is the emphasis of that chapter. It is about how God offers grace and salvation to all.
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10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Shouldn't the angels in Luke 2:10 proclaim it was good news for the elect? Instead of ALL the people?

It is good news for all, but whether or not you believe in a synergistic or monergistic soteriology, some will still not believe the good news.


How is it good news for the "passed over"? They have no chance in Reformed theology.
Neither is it good news for those who choose to deny Christ.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

My problem is that it is a repetitive theme in Titus, 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 4-10, Luke 2:10, and more. You have to explain a lot of "alls" away.

And I prefer calling it a Christian view rather than Reformed, Arminian, etc. I think the danger of that thought is you have a pre conceived theology and try to fit Scripture into that theology.

I am not trying to explain the "alls" away. Just reading the letter in its entirety and for me it is hard to see it otherwise. I'm open to hearing an alternate way to look at it.

I do agree with the spirit of trying to approach it from the same lens.
With my non Reformed lens, the entire letter makes perfect sense to me. The author gives examples of different types of people as examples about how God extends grace to all men.

It seems to me if it was limited to the elect, then the word elect would have appeared when describing these groups of people because with Reformed theology, all that matters is election, Not what group people belong to. Seems very inclusive to me.
"Elect" is used in the beginning of the letter.
Fair enough. But to anyone not reading through a Reformed lens, I do not think that is the emphasis of that chapter. It is about how God offers grace and salvation to all.
Perhaps, but my entire point was that I am persuaded we should be interpreting the entire letter as a whole rather than chunks of different thoughts. To me it flows all the way from 1:1 to the end of the epistle.
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Shouldn't the angels in Luke 2:10 proclaim it was good news for the elect? Instead of ALL the people?

It is good news for all, but whether or not you believe in a synergistic or monergistic soteriology, some will still not believe the good news.


How is it good news for the "passed over"? They have no chance in Reformed theology.
Neither is it good news for those who choose to deny Christ.
But they have a chance. So it is potentially good news. Under Reformed theology, how could it be good news to the non elect? At any time?
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dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

My problem is that it is a repetitive theme in Titus, 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 4-10, Luke 2:10, and more. You have to explain a lot of "alls" away.

And I prefer calling it a Christian view rather than Reformed, Arminian, etc. I think the danger of that thought is you have a pre conceived theology and try to fit Scripture into that theology.

I am not trying to explain the "alls" away. Just reading the letter in its entirety and for me it is hard to see it otherwise. I'm open to hearing an alternate way to look at it.

I do agree with the spirit of trying to approach it from the same lens.
With my non Reformed lens, the entire letter makes perfect sense to me. The author gives examples of different types of people as examples about how God extends grace to all men.

It seems to me if it was limited to the elect, then the word elect would have appeared when describing these groups of people because with Reformed theology, all that matters is election, Not what group people belong to. Seems very inclusive to me.
"Elect" is used in the beginning of the letter.
Fair enough. But to anyone not reading through a Reformed lens, I do not think that is the emphasis of that chapter. It is about how God offers grace and salvation to all.
Perhaps, but my entire point was that I am persuaded we should be interpreting the entire letter as a whole rather than chunks of different thoughts. To me it flows all the way from 1:1 to the end of the epistle.
True, but as I have stated, Reformed interpretation of elect to me is different than every other strain of theology.

Maybe it is me but when I read that Titus chapter the Reformed view of election is not the dominant idea being expressed.
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dermdoc
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AG
And I have to to "work". Will carry on later.
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BusterAg
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I doubt that there was much de-gendering effort put into the NIV.

I could see as Jesus as the savior of mankind in a non-spiritual sense as well, I guess. The context of Titus 2:11 is around living morally upright lives, and directly proceeded by teaching directed at slaves. There is a legitimate argument that, without Christianity blooming throughout the Roman Empire when it did, we never see the enlightenment period, and most of Europe eventually becomes Muslim in the middle ages.

In pre-Christian Rome, the empire was "God". It is what rallied the people. Christianity held the empire together much longer than it probably would have without Christianity, when belief in Rome as a savior was fading.

So, in that vein, Christ very well could have saved "mankind" from an earlier extinction, or at least a worse history.

But, not sure that is the point. Here is the context, abbreviated:

1) Teach older men temperance
2) Teach older women to be reverent
3) Teach young men self-control
4) Teach slaves to be obedient
5) For the grace of God has appeared that provides salvation to all people.
6) It teaches us to say no to the world and yes to godly lives in order to survive this age.
7) Teach these things with authority and boldness

In that context, I don't see All People or Mankind to be all that different. The truth is the verse could read "all people and all mankind" and still be correct, theologically, in my opinion.
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