Transitioning teacher at St Francis de Sales episcopal school in Houston

14,941 Views | 220 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Rongagin71
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 6:28p, 8/27/24
AG
I assume you are referring to gender affirming surgery? If so, here is my understanding for what it's worth.

My kiddo (now adult) explained it to me this way- "passing" - as in doing just enough reconstructive surgery to "pass" as a male or female.

I asked, "Yeah, but you know and I know that you did what you did- like dying your hair or getting a nose job."

He said, "Exactly. People do these things to make themselves feel better. I would feel better if I had a procedure to better reflect how I see myself."

I pressed on, "I this like getting a tattoo?"

"Yup, but way more permanent."

+++

Personally, I don't have a problem with people getting a tattoo when they are adults (our house rules). I also, have never dyed my hair nor do I have any tattoos.

I do have a problem with cisgender men using the women's bathroom. If you still have a pee-pee, use the right bathroom. As an architect I encourage clients to build gender neutral bathrooms if possible.

To me, much of the angst directed towards transgendered persons is over done. They do suffer from gender dysphoria, but not all are sexual predators.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:49p, 8/27/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
I assume you are referring to gender affirming surgery? If so, here is my understanding for what it's worth.

My kiddo (now adult) explained it to me this way- "passing" - as in doing just enough reconstructive surgery to "pass" as a male or female.

I asked, "Yeah, but you know and I know that you did what you did- like dying your hair or getting a nose job."

He said, "Exactly. People do these things to make themselves feel better. I would feel better if I had a procedure to better reflect how I see myself."

I pressed on, "I this like getting a tattoo?"

"Yup, but way more permanent."

+++

Personally, I don't have a problem with people getting a tattoo when they are adults (our house rules). I also, have never dyed my hair nor do I have any tattoos.

I do have a problem with cisgender men using the women's bathroom. If you still have a pee-pee, use the right bathroom. As an architect I encourage clients to build gender neutral bathrooms if possible.

To me, much of the angst directed towards transgendered persons is over done. They do suffer from gender dysphoria, but not all are sexual predators.


Nobody is saying that. Gender dysphoria is not a new psychiatric disease. It is not being treated the same way it has in the past.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
10
1 edit
AGC
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:53p, 8/27/24
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
AGC said:
kurt vonnegut said:

You can also be a **** parent, friend, neighbor, and coworker by not allowing them a say in what their best interests are.
So what? You're not really making a case for what you posted. The point is that you cannot simply be hands off entirely, so the argument is moot. Individuals must make continual choices that impact others, whether to help or not, and cannot say it's none of their business.

Are the only options 'hands off' or absolute authoritarian control?

If I wish to help someone to be happy and healthy, I should listen to them to learn what that looks like for them. And, provided that doing so does not violate my values, help them toward THEIR goal of happy rather than mandate that they seek MY goal of happy.

I absolutely can say its none of my business. I do it every day. AGC, what are you having for dinner? . . . you know what, none of my business. What books are you reading your kids before bed tonight? Nope, none of my business. Are you going to church this weekend,? None of my F-ing business.

I recognize your actions affect me. Hell, if you sneeze right now and get someone sick, maybe we can track a cause and affect across the state that ends up with one of my coworkers kids getting sick and causing some minor inconvenience to me because my coworker now needs to juggle work and sick kid.

We all draw lines where actions from other people are 'our business' or 'not our business'. Apparently I draw that line differently than you. Irony is complaining about secularists meddling in Christianity while simultaneously stating that the beliefs of secularists are your business to control.



I'm glad you agree with me that we must help others navigate their decisions. There is wisdom with age that gets jettisoned otherwise. And to your next point, no, most often people don't understand what truly makes them happy. We have happiness in a moment and happiness in aggregate as the sum of choices. An example: the ironic paradox of how much freedom and choice modern women have relative to their great grandmothers, to pursue what makes them happy. Yet what we find is each successive generation is less happy.

According to your philosophy, we should ask them what they want and help them pursue it. Mine would be to ask their mothers and grandmothers what made them happy, and encourage a pursuit of that.

You would ask someone with body dysmorphia which limb they want cut off and help. I'd look at what they'd lose by doing so, and encourage them not to. Reality grounds us all and it is madness to fight it, no matter what the mind says about happiness. You can't be a tiger no matter what may make you happy, and the rest of society should not be burdened by your choices with the cost of healthcare and accommodation. The individual is not the building block of society.

Super late edit: as a Christian, happiness is not achievable apart from God. I should add that before I get to far. He is reality and existence.
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AGC • 5:45a, 8/28/24
AG
To me, "happiness" is a fleeting emotion. I think communion with God brings lasting joy and peace or what has been called shalom.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
4
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to kurt vonnegut • 8:33a, 8/28/24
AG
kurt vonnegut said:
I'm telling you what I think is a reason for why your message about body dysmorphia is poorly received by those affected. You can consider the perspective or you can dismiss it. Thats all. . . .


What are we supposed to say if we think it is a mental illness? I can lovingly convey that they should seek psychiatric help and I doubt that will go over well.
But it does more harm in my opinion to enable them so they "like" us.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
6
1 edit
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AGC • 12:44p, 8/28/24
AG
AGC said:
A local Episcopalian school let an upper school student 'present' a few years ago and there was a student exodus that followed, including the headmaster. It was odd that the families that left mostly went to the government schools instead of other privates, but not surprising I suppose.

I'm not sure which family it was exactly but an episcopal priest moved to Austin a year or two later and their child is now living as trans, so my small brain assumes it's connected.

Edit: while unconnected, it's merely to say that unless you're very strict with your episcopal oversight and have a clear anthropology, it's coming.

Sorry to hear this for your friend's sake.
I've seen both sides of it. Parents go, 'Well if I can't escape this nonsense in private school, at least lets not waste money here and shoot for GT placement or AP classes in public school." And generally, if a school comes from a Christian denomination that can waffle on something like transgenderism being flaunted overtly on its staff- you aren't finding any good theological education anyway.

Also have seen parents switch to more conservative private schools. But switching to a good private school is very hard and usually a very long timeline from application to start of school year. Most are one in, one out after classes are formed in the lowest grades.

Reply Quote
1
Quo Vadis?
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 12:53p, 8/28/24
PabloSerna said:
I assume you are referring to gender affirming surgery? If so, here is my understanding for what it's worth.

My kiddo (now adult) explained it to me this way- "passing" - as in doing just enough reconstructive surgery to "pass" as a male or female.

I asked, "Yeah, but you know and I know that you did what you did- like dying your hair or getting a nose job."

He said, "Exactly. People do these things to make themselves feel better. I would feel better if I had a procedure to better reflect how I see myself."

I pressed on, "I this like getting a tattoo?"

"Yup, but way more permanent."

+++

Personally, I don't have a problem with people getting a tattoo when they are adults (our house rules). I also, have never dyed my hair nor do I have any tattoos.

I do have a problem with cisgender men using the women's bathroom. If you still have a pee-pee, use the right bathroom. As an architect I encourage clients to build gender neutral bathrooms if possible.

To me, much of the angst directed towards transgendered persons is over done. They do suffer from gender dysphoria, but not all are sexual predators.


I don't understand brother. A male without a peepee is still a male. I know a dude who literally had his entire package blown off while horsing around with a gun in a truck. He's still a dude. Some things you don't get to change.

The only, only people who should be allowed to decide are those unfortunate few who are both; Caster Semenya, Britney Griner, the Algerian boxer. I actually have no problem if they go back and forth between genders because they're literally both.
Reply Quote
6
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to one MEEN Ag • 12:55p, 8/28/24
AG
One of the reasons I am still working is I want to pay for my grandkids to go to private, Christian schools.

But even some of those are "woke". Fortunately my daighter is extremely diligent about what they are being exposed to.

She was teaching and had them in the local Methodist day school (same school my wife taught them) and when they stayed with the liberal UMC she resigned and pulled them out.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
3
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Quo Vadis? • 2:19p, 8/28/24
AG
Exactly. With or without you are what you were made to be. This is the dysphoria part of the journey.

Physically you can imagine that with enough plastic surgery a person can "pass" for the opposite sex. Spiritually however, their essence (in my experience) remains the same.

I still do not quite understand why some people wish to deny or reject people who want to alter their bodies? It would seem that as long as you do not remove your breast, add facial hair, or try to "pass" as the opposite sex- you can pretty much do anything, is that about right?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 2:36p, 8/28/24
AG

Quote:
Physically you can imagine that with enough plastic surgery a person can "pass" for the opposite sex. Spiritually however, their essence (in my experience) remains the same.
This is just Plato talking
Reply Quote
4
Quo Vadis?
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 2:38p, 8/28/24
PabloSerna said:
Exactly. With or without you are what you were made to be. This is the dysphoria part of the journey.

Physically you can imagine that with enough plastic surgery a person can "pass" for the opposite sex. Spiritually however, their essence (in my experience) remains the same.

I still do not quite understand why some people wish to deny or reject people who want to alter their bodies? It would seem that as long as you do not remove your breast, add facial hair, or try to "pass" as the opposite sex- you can pretty much do anything, is that about right?


It's not that they're altering their bodies. I don't see many Catholics haranguing women for getting breast implants or people who lost weight getting skin removal surgery.

It's the idea that reality is malleable and beholden to the individual.

Ilona Maher does not conform to most people's ideas about femininity, yet she's imminently female, and I think she's cute.

There is room within the genders for individual expression. You can have tomboys, debutantes, and cheerleader types; no issue.

The issue is when you say "I'm actually a man, and you have to agree with me and celebrate that fact, even though I'm a woman". That's what's not okay. I think it's harmful to society and the person themself
Reply Quote
2
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 2:49p, 8/28/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Exactly. With or without you are what you were made to be. This is the dysphoria part of the journey.

Physically you can imagine that with enough plastic surgery a person can "pass" for the opposite sex. Spiritually however, their essence (in my experience) remains the same.

I still do not quite understand why some people wish to deny or reject people who want to alter their bodies? It would seem that as long as you do not remove your breast, add facial hair, or try to "pass" as the opposite sex- you can pretty much do anything, is that about right?
If someone tattoos their skin, I play no part in that. If they go through extensive plastic surgery to make themselves more attractive I also play no part in that. Even if its an overtly amount of plastic surgery for beautification, I don't have to do anything. I don't have to comment one way or another when interacting with them up close or afar.

But if someone goes through so much surgery they want to declare they have changed their nature and now I have to identify them against their nature, now I have to play a role in this lie. And that is when this house of cards collapses.

This board has had a pretty consistent majority opinion on this. These modifications are extreme, highly risky, highly regrettable, irreversible, sterilizing, and do not improve the person's mental health long term once performed. Nor do the sum total of even the best surgeries allow someone to fully become the other sex. They should not be performed on children, this should not be a topic brought up around children, and delaying puberty is also fraught with risks and unknowns. People suffering from this issue shouldn't be ignored, but neither glamorized. They shouldn't be ostracized from church, but they should join a church to conform to the church with humility, not to change the church.

Reply Quote
7
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to one MEEN Ag • 4:06p, 8/28/24
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
PabloSerna said:
Exactly. With or without you are what you were made to be. This is the dysphoria part of the journey.

Physically you can imagine that with enough plastic surgery a person can "pass" for the opposite sex. Spiritually however, their essence (in my experience) remains the same.

I still do not quite understand why some people wish to deny or reject people who want to alter their bodies? It would seem that as long as you do not remove your breast, add facial hair, or try to "pass" as the opposite sex- you can pretty much do anything, is that about right?
If someone tattoos their skin, I play no part in that. If they go through extensive plastic surgery to make themselves more attractive I also play no part in that. Even if its an overtly amount of plastic surgery for beautification, I don't have to do anything. I don't have to comment one way or another when interacting with them up close or afar.

But if someone goes through so much surgery they want to declare they have changed their nature and now I have to identify them against their nature, now I have to play a role in this lie. And that is when this house of cards collapses.

This board has had a pretty consistent majority opinion on this. These modifications are extreme, highly risky, highly regrettable, irreversible, sterilizing, and do not improve the person's mental health long term once performed. Nor do the sum total of even the best surgeries allow someone to fully become the other sex. They should not be performed on children, this should not be a topic brought up around children, and delaying puberty is also fraught with risks and unknowns. People suffering from this issue shouldn't be ignored, but neither glamorized. They shouldn't be ostracized from church, but they should join a church to conform to the church with humility, not to change the church.

Great post. And I have harsh criticism for the docs who enable this behavior.

I occasionally see patients who think bugs are crawling on them, out of their ears, nose, etc. It is called delusion of parisitosis. I do not tell them that is normal.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
7
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to one MEEN Ag • 4:13p, 8/28/24
AG
Just so I understand- if a woman with small breasts, a flat butt, thin lips, a honker of a nose, and balding- spends their own money to go from a sub 3 to 7 or 8 - this is ok in your world view because you didn't know about it?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 4:39p, 8/28/24
AG
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.
Reply Quote
10
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 5:01p, 8/28/24
AG
Zobel said:
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.
Amen.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 5:54p, 8/28/24
AG
Zobel said:
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.


By that logic, then a big-busted woman to a flat-chested woman is ok, right?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:21p, 8/28/24
AG
I dunno about "ok", but it is possible. It is also possible for a person to cut off their hand, or mutilate their genitals. It is not possible for someone to become the opposite sex.
Reply Quote
10
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:26p, 8/28/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand- if a woman with small breasts, a flat butt, thin lips, a honker of a nose, and balding- spends their own money to go from a sub 3 to 7 or 8 - this is ok in your world view because you didn't know about it?


I believe she would identify as 'married' after all of that.
Reply Quote
4
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:37p, 8/28/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand- if a woman with small breasts, a flat butt, thin lips, a honker of a nose, and balding- spends their own money to go from a sub 3 to 7 or 8 - this is ok in your world view because you didn't know about it?


All you described are just inherit features that define sexual attractiveness. This hypothetical person is just trying to become more attractive within the sex they already are. Not exactly a controversial thing here. They aren't trying to switch sexes and make me play along.
Reply Quote
7
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to one MEEN Ag • 6:40p, 8/28/24
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand- if a woman with small breasts, a flat butt, thin lips, a honker of a nose, and balding- spends their own money to go from a sub 3 to 7 or 8 - this is ok in your world view because you didn't know about it?


I believe she would identify as 'married' after all of that.


If I tattooed my skin darker, and died my hair could I identify as any race I'd like to? What if I even got plastic surgery to make my facial features fit whatever race I'd like?

I can even learn to cook the local cuisine, talk, and act like any specific ethnic group.

Does that make me part of that ethnic group?

We are way closer technology wise to changing races compared to sexes. Why can't I change my race?
Reply Quote
3
2 edits
one MEEN Ag
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:47p, 8/28/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.


By that logic, then a big-busted woman to a flat-chested woman is ok, right?


No this is not okay.
Reply Quote
1
Quo Vadis?
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 7:21p, 8/28/24
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.


By that logic, then a big-busted woman to a flat-chested woman is ok, right?


There are a lot of women with painfully large breasts who get breast reduction surgery
Reply Quote
2
fc2112
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:37p, 8/28/24
I had no idea.

Quote:
Francis is remembered in the Church of England with a Lesser Festival on 24 January.In 2022, Francis de Sales was officially added to the Episcopal Church liturgical calendar with a feast day shared with Jane Frances de Chantal on 12 December.
Reply Quote
1
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to one MEEN Ag • 4:35a, 8/29/24
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
She can go from being a flat-chested woman to a big-busted woman. She can't go from being a flat-chested woman to being a man.


By that logic, then a big-busted woman to a flat-chested woman is ok, right?


No this is not okay.


Why?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 4:55a, 8/29/24
AG
Zobel said:
I dunno about "ok", but it is possible. It is also possible for a person to cut off their hand, or mutilate their genitals. It is not possible for someone to become the opposite sex.


We all couldn't agree more.

But this is not a sex-change operation, it is called gender affirming - sometimes there is an operation involved, most of the time it is a prescription or hair plugs or a haircut.

They are not seeking anyone's approval or permission. They simply want to feel better about themselves and these procedures help them get there.

If they have the money and the means exist to make this happen- why should you or I object? That is what I am trying to understand.

“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 6:35a, 8/29/24
AG
should we object to suicide?
Reply Quote
8
Quo Vadis?
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 7:36a, 8/29/24
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
I dunno about "ok", but it is possible. It is also possible for a person to cut off their hand, or mutilate their genitals. It is not possible for someone to become the opposite sex.


We all couldn't agree more.

But this is not a sex-change operation, it is called gender affirming - sometimes there is an operation involved, most of the time it is a prescription or hair plugs or a haircut.

They are not seeking anyone's approval or permission. They simply want to feel better about themselves and these procedures help them get there.

If they have the money and the means exist to make this happen- why should you or I object? That is what I am trying to understand.



How is it affirming? It's the opposite. It's gender confusing therapy. As mentioned before, "obesity confirming therapy" for a person with anorexia would quickly lead to their death.
Reply Quote
10
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Quo Vadis? • 8:14a, 8/29/24
Quo Vadis? said:
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
I dunno about "ok", but it is possible. It is also possible for a person to cut off their hand, or mutilate their genitals. It is not possible for someone to become the opposite sex.


We all couldn't agree more.

But this is not a sex-change operation, it is called gender affirming - sometimes there is an operation involved, most of the time it is a prescription or hair plugs or a haircut.

They are not seeking anyone's approval or permission. They simply want to feel better about themselves and these procedures help them get there.

If they have the money and the means exist to make this happen- why should you or I object? That is what I am trying to understand.



How is it affirming? It's the opposite. It's gender confusing therapy. As mentioned before, "obesity confirming therapy" for a person with anorexia would quickly lead to their death.

This x1000

It's not affirming to let someone believe they can somehow change the gender or sex that God gave them. It's the exact opposite and when we support this illness, we harm everyone involved.

As a Christian, we should certainly love the person who is struggling with a mental illness, but to support the concept that a person can actually change the most basic aspect of what God gave them is wrong and frankly sinful. You aren't honoring your neighbor.

Romans 9 seems to address this near perfectly:

19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Reply Quote
2
AGC
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 8:18a, 8/29/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Zobel said:
I dunno about "ok", but it is possible. It is also possible for a person to cut off their hand, or mutilate their genitals. It is not possible for someone to become the opposite sex.


We all couldn't agree more.

But this is not a sex-change operation, it is called gender affirming - sometimes there is an operation involved, most of the time it is a prescription or hair plugs or a haircut.

They are not seeking anyone's approval or permission. They simply want to feel better about themselves and these procedures help them get there.

If they have the money and the means exist to make this happen- why should you or I object? That is what I am trying to understand.



I had always assumed most Catholics were sacramental as opposed to secular, that they recognized the inherent interconnection of the natural and supernatural, the physical and the spiritual, in such a way that there is no duality between mind and body. How do you reconcile this understanding of humanity with your faith? Or do you see no contradiction between them?
Reply Quote
9
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:45a, 8/29/24
AG
Suicide and death? We are talking about hair plugs, breast reduction/enhancement. Clearly, this is allowed in certain scenarios but not in others.

Is it maybe that there is some confusion between biological sex and gender? It would seem that some would say they are one and the same, where as others are saying there is a difference.

For the duality comment, is that a question for me in particular or just in general?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
1
PabloSerna
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 10:52a, 8/29/24
AG
They are not seeking to have a sex- change operation. Gender affirming is along the lines of "-ness" as in maleness or femaleness.

I can recall a time when we had girls that we understood to be "tomboys" or boys that were "momma's boy"- all before they hit puberty it would seem.

If a person seeks to emphasize that aspect of themselves without changing their sex- why would some object?
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 10:53a, 8/29/24
AG
You didn't answer the question.

Quote:
If they have the money and the means exist to make this happen- why should you or I object? That is what I am trying to understand.
Is this a valid method to approach suicide?
Reply Quote
5
AGC
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to PabloSerna • 11:13a, 8/29/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Suicide and death? We are talking about hair plugs, breast reduction/enhancement. Clearly, this is allowed in certain scenarios but not in others.

Is it maybe that there is some confusion between biological sex and gender? It would seem that some would say they are one and the same, where as others are saying there is a difference.

For the duality comment, is that a question for me in particular or just in general?


Yes, the 'duality' question is for you, though that's an oversimplification of what I asked. How do you reconcile a sacramental worldview, one where we participate physically and spiritually, with your argumentation that the physical is not an essential characteristic of a being but an accidental instead?
Reply Quote
3
kurt vonnegut
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AGC • 11:52a, 8/29/24
AG
AGC said:

I'm glad you agree with me that we must help others navigate their decisions. There is wisdom with age that gets jettisoned otherwise. And to your next point, no, most often people don't understand what truly makes them happy. We have happiness in a moment and happiness in aggregate as the sum of choices. An example: the ironic paradox of how much freedom and choice modern women have relative to their great grandmothers, to pursue what makes them happy. Yet what we find is each successive generation is less happy.

According to your philosophy, we should ask them what they want and help them pursue it. Mine would be to ask their mothers and grandmothers what made them happy, and encourage a pursuit of that.

You would ask someone with body dysmorphia which limb they want cut off and help. I'd look at what they'd lose by doing so, and encourage them not to. Reality grounds us all and it is madness to fight it, no matter what the mind says about happiness. You can't be a tiger no matter what may make you happy, and the rest of society should not be burdened by your choices with the cost of healthcare and accommodation. The individual is not the building block of society.

Super late edit: as a Christian, happiness is not achievable apart from God. I should add that before I get to far. He is reality and existence.

I have a friend and coworker who came to the states from India about 10 years ago. As he has described to me, his family in India is very religious, but he follows a much less strict Hindu tradition. When he came to the states he struggled for some time and then again recently when his father passed and his mother has gotten very ill. He describes his beliefs as something that gives him a lot of strength and peace and something that helps him feel connected to his family.

Were I a Christian, would it be acceptable to be happy for him and be content that he has something in his life that gives him that peace? Or should I be distraught by him leaning into what I consider to be false belief?

Is there any value in the peace and connection that my friend feels?
What are reasonable limitations on assuming to know better than those that disagree with us?

Here is my hang-up with your post:
My friend believes something different from me. I could easily make the argument that believing in something that is false is never a positive. But I recognize that he does not believe it to be false and I recognize that it provides him with something positive in his life. The idea that I would tell him that I know better than him and that he ought to purse happiness in the exact same manner as me is not something I am comfortable with. It feels arrogant.

I see no issue with person 'A' navigating person 'B' toward what gives person 'A' happiness and peace and comfort. But if person 'A' is to demand that person 'B' follow the same path or is to diminish person 'B' for following a different path, then I worry that person 'A' is no longer primarily concerned with helping person 'B'. At what point is helping others navigate their decisions an altruistic exercise? And at what point is it an exercise in conceit?

Before objections are raised about comparisons between Hinduism and Transgenderism, I'm only trying to better understand your position on 'happiness' not achieved through Christianity.

Also, I never said anything about encouraging someone to cut off a limb. I don't think that is an honest account of a position I've taken.
Reply Quote
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.