The commandment is given to Israel and even in the Ten Commandments makes a distinction between them and the sojourner who lives within their gates. It there were still a Judaean church, with Jews in it as there was in the first century, they should keep Torah and those foreigners among them should keep sabbath. But I don't live in a Jewish community where sabbath is kept.

Are you a Judaean, or a son of Israel, or a sojourner living within the gates or town of them?

The distinction is that they have to keep the sabbath too. Not that they don't.

Yeah. The ones that dwell in their towns. It doesn't say anything about the ones that don't.

So, again. Just going off of what the scriptures actually affirmatively say. Does that commandment or the one I Lev 23 apply to you? Unless you are a Judaean, my read is an unequivocal "no" - and that is also the historical understanding of the church.

Zobel said:

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Yeah. The ones that dwell in their towns. It doesn't say anything about the ones that don't.

So, again. Just going off of what the scriptures actually affirmatively say. Does that commandment or the one I Lev 23 apply to you? Unless you are a Judaean, my read is an unequivocal "no" - and that is also the historical understanding of the church.

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Agree. And that is what I was trying to say. Thanks.

If you are serious about researching your questions, I suggest getting a copy of this book.

These Things You Should Have Done by Paul Torason

Did Jesus sin?

Or was Jesus the only one to ever follow God's Law perfectly and not sin?
If you believe Jesus was a perfect keeper of God's Law, then this book will
intrigue you and challenge your beliefs about the Bible. That's because most
New Testament doctrine teaches how Jesus violated the Sabbath, declared
all foods clean, waived away the Law against adultery and violated many other
Old Testament commands. How can that be? Is Jesus a sinner or is man-made
doctrine and interpretation wrong? We believe it is the latter.

Maybe I'm wrong but the way I read it is the Ten Commandments are for Gods people. The Levitical law is for a nation, national law, since they had no King and priestly duties since they performed the feasts, sacrifices, temple duties etc.

Maybe part of the hang up is it's an active command vs a passive command like most of the others.

I don't think you would find any Christian argue that the Ten Commandments only apply to judeans, a small subject of the entire Israel people.

Now tbe case of the use of foreigner is interesting but to me it's not isolated. It's an among a list of people:entities that are to adhere to it also. Pretty much saying it's NOT just for the Hebrews. But all that is within your household/under your authority should adhere to it.

The reason I'm saying Judaeans is because the rest of Israel was completely lost. The Jews today are Judaeans … that's where the word Jew comes from.

The Torah was given to Israel. Not to all the nations. The commandments in it are for Israel. A subset of the commandments apply to everyone who dwells in the land, including foreigners and sojourners. Israel was not commanded to proselytize and make the other nations follow the Torah. St Paul says those nations, when they follow God, were a Torah unto themselves.

So there are ways that other nations can be that is God pleasing. This is literally the subject of debate at the council of Jerusalem - whether or not the gentiles coming to God needed to be circumcised and follow the Torah - in other words whether or not they needed to become Judaeans. And the answer was no. The same answer is given in Galatians. Because the Torah was not about salvation per se. The answer was: follow the Torah, some is for the sons of Israel, some is for everyone. The everyone is still for everyone.

You don't need to become become a Jew. The commandments to the sons of Israel don't apply to you.

That does not mean that murder is only wrong for Jews. That is a logical connection not supported. Right and wrong, justice and injustice, are eternal realities. But the Torah was given because of transgressions.

Let's put it this way. What Christian sect has continuously existed practicing the physical keeping of the sabbath?

If you answer is "none" either you have some special insight that the rest of Christendom missed… or there's more to it than you see.

This is a good question. Going to read up on early church writings on the subject If there are any.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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This is a good question. Going to read up on early church writings on the subject If there are any.

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[emphasis added]

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm
Socrates (380-439AD) Scholasticus Book V; Chapter 22

"For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria(ONLY) and at Rome (ONLY) ,..have ceased to do this."

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm
Sozomen (400-450AD) Ecclesiastical History (Book VII); Chapter 19

"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0616.htm
Archelaus (Bishop of Carrhae) 278AD

"Again, as to the assertion that the Sabbath has been abolished, we deny that He has abolished it plainly"

https://www.cbcg.org/romes-challengea.html

Archbishop of Reggio came into the council of Trent in 1563AD with substantially the following argument:

"The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath...If they do truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.... they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church."

So a few thoughts after reading some early church writings. This was a far bigger topic and debate than I ever realized. Extending even into todays time. When I first began exploring what keeping the Sabbath may look like it I was ignorant of this hotly debated topic. That being said this source I found is clearly arguing a case for keeping tbe Sabbath. But with that in mind these early writings and history seem to indicate it is important. It's a long read. Here are a few quotes I found interesting.

" This writer specifies the different things which made up the Jewish observance of the Sabbath. They may be summed up under two heads: 1. Strict abstinence from labor; 2. Dancing and carousal. Now in the light of what Origen has said, we can understand the contrast which this writer draws between the Jewish and the Christian observance of the Sabbath. The error of the in the first part of this was that they contented themselves with mere bodily relaxation, without raising their thoughts to God, the Creator, and this mere idleness soon gave place to sensual folly.

The Christian, as Origen draws the contrast, refrains from labor on the Sabbath that he may raise his heart in grateful worship; or, as this writer expresses it, the rejoicing in meditation on the law; but to do thus, he must hallow it in the manner which the law commands, that is, in the observance of a sacred rest which commemorates the rest of the Creator. The writer evidently believed the observance of the Sabbath as an act of obedience to that law on which they were to meditate on that day. And the nature of the epistle indicates that it was observed, at all events, in the country where it was written. But mark the work of apostasy. The so-called Lord's day for which the writer could offer nothing better than an argument drawn from the title of the sixth psalm (see its marginal reading), is exalted above the Lord'"

" Irenaeus asserts their perpetuity, and makes them a test of

Christian character. Thus he says:

"For God at the first, indeed, warning them [the Jews] by means of natural precepts, which from the beginning he had implanted in mankind, that is, by means of the Decalogue (which, if any one does not observe, he has no salvation), did then demand nothing more of them." 1

This is a very strong statement. He makes the ten commandments the law of nature implanted in man's being at the beginning; and so inherited by all mankind. This is no doubt true. It is the presence of the carnal mind or law of sin and death, implanted in man by the fall, that has partially obliterated this law, and made the work of the new covenant a necessity. 2 He again asserts the perpetuity and authority of the ten commandments in the following words:

"Preparing man for this life, the Lord himself did speak in his own person to all alike the words of the Decalogue: and therefore, in like manner, do they remain permanently with us, receiving, by means of his advent in the flesh, extension and increase, but not abrogation."

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/library.sr/CT/BOOK/k/960/sabbath-in-record-of-early-fathers.htm#:~:text=The%20testimony%20of%20Novatian%2C%20which,those%20holy%20men%20of%20old.

Interesting stuff. Thank you. I'm beginning to understand why this is a larger debate. It's also seemingly clear why Protestants don't emphasis the Sabbath because they came out of the Roman Catholic Church which seemingly ended its practice. I'm probably over simplifying it but it kind of makes sense now why the Protestant church is largely silent on it.

Do you mind elaborating on your experiences keeping the sabbath? How did that start? What do you do now etc?

What makes it messier is the relative "Jewishness" of various churches aligns with their sabbath keeping. Ephesus and Alexandria both had substantial Jewish numbers; Roman and Greek churches, less so. The whole of the book of Romans is about tensions between Jewish and Gentile Christians, with St Paul working to ensure there was only one Church, not two.

But the backdrop to all of this is the Torah. The question of the sabbath is a question of Torah, how to apply it. In fact much of the NT is meditations on application and understanding of Torah, which shouldn't surprise us as Christianity is a Judaism. And when confronted with this question the Apostles in Jerusalem turned to the Torah. And not only did they read it, but they took a very strict reading of it! This is why St Paul continuously defends himself against the accusation that he was teaching Jews not to keep Torah. He was not. As he says, he was upholding the Torah in all of his teaching.

I think the framework I've described best fits both the scripture and how it plays out in history. You can't be a "people" by yourself, and your people / ethnicity is not your blood (certainly not in the classical understanding) - it is how you live. So Romans living under Roman law and custom - the lex or nomos of Rome - were Roman by virtue of how they lived. This is -exactly- the same thing that made you a Jew. It wasn't about "beliefs" - that is modernism creeping in. (An interesting thing to consider when the Jews tell the Romans "we have our Law and by our Law he ought to die" - the Romans had their own Torah / lex / nomos! St Paul certainly appeals to this! And Roman "Law" should go in exactly the same mental shelf space as the Torah, they're the same types of things - not civil or religious but both and more.)

Once there were substantially more gentiles than Jews in the Christian populations, the Judaeans over time ceased being Judaeans, and became assimilated with their fellow Christians as Christian Greeks, Christian Romans, Christian Egyptians. Those people were never required to keep the sabbath, and did not. And, sadly, the mother church in Jerusalem was destroyed, so the authentic Judaean expression of Christianity was lost to history. But those Judaean Christians were absolutely keeping Torah, worshipping in the Temple, etc.

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As an aside, the idea that choosing to follow any of the Torah obligates one to all of it is ridiculous on its face.

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You have to understand that the way St Paul did. "Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." If you want to become Judaean, you are obligated to become under all of the Torah that speaks to Judaeans. You can't be a little bit Jewish. You are either part of that people or you are not. So, the question is - are you becoming a Jew?

And if not… why is, say, weekly sabbath keeping what you start to follow? Why not the other sabbaths? Why not circumcision? Etc

Because the weekly sabbath is in the Ten Commandments. Which from what I've read these last couple days from early church fathers is that the Ten Commandments should be kept. And that they are a set of morality that predates tbe giving of the Ten Commandments to Mosses.

I think the debate or conversation should be how do we keep the Sabbath.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Do you mind elaborating on your experiences keeping the sabbath? How did that start? What do you do now etc?

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There was a poster on here once upon a time that went by the name Bracy, and he was a huge advocate for Messianic Judaism. I was very strongly influenced by this and made a personal vow to God to follow His Torah. That was nearly 20 years ago, so my views and opinions have shifted a bit in that time, and my observances aren't exactly the same. However, the spirit is still the same. As far as I'm concerned, if someone can take a vow of poverty, a vow of silence, or a vow of chastity to show reverence and worship to God, then why can't I take a vow of Torah?

Regarding the fine details, I stick with the basics. No unnecessary work and no fire. I also try not to do chores or tasks that can wait until the next day or be done the day before. I used to be a lot more strict, in that I wouldn't do anything that would make someone else work on the Sabbath, such as going to the movies. However, I've dropped that since. I figured it's a bit arrogant of me to boycott everyone else working on the Sabbath when they haven't made that same committment that I have. The fire thing is a bit controversial, and I come down on the side of no open flames. So no matches, campfires, grills, or fireplaces. But I don't have an issue with an ICE engine or home's gas heater as those are enclosed. But that may be more in the weeds than anyone cares to hear

I don't disagree there. The issue I have is every time I've seen someone ask and answer that question it either becomes whatever form of rest makes sense to them - which is an odd way to address a universal moral reality - or to say we have to do it the way the Torah says, to which I ask the above.

On the other hand the Church writ large - not just Rome - has practices handed down and kept since the time of the Apostles. Very, very early (St Ignatius of Antioch, St Justin Martyr - early 2nd century) we see that the gentile Christians were not keeping the sabbath as the Judaeans did.

There is a clear teaching, too, that we live in the Messianic age. There was the old order, now we have the new. Our order of worship observes the Sabbath in relation to Christ - as we understand all the feasts and the Torah and all the scriptures. And so, our weekly commemoration of the sabbath is when He rested from all of His labors in the Tomb, and harrowed hades. But this is not the temporal sabbath, but the eternal sabbath, the spiritual sabbath. And we are commanded to keep that sabbath every day.

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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As an aside, the idea that choosing to follow any of the Torah obligates one to all of it is ridiculous on its face.

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You have to understand that the way St Paul did. "Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." If you want to become Judaean, you are obligated to become under all of the Torah that speaks to Judaeans. You can't be a little bit Jewish. You are either part of that people or you are not. So, the question is - are you becoming a Jew?

And if not… why is, say, weekly sabbath keeping what you start to follow? Why not the other sabbaths? Why not circumcision? Etc

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Might be TMI, but I was circumcised before I had a say in the matter. So maybe I'm just catching up.

And as I said above, I took a personal vow to follow Torah as a way to worship and revere God. The same as any person can take a monastic vow to do the same. Regarding becoming a Jew, the whole idea is off. Not a single Jew in the world would look at me and think I was practicing Judaism. As you've said many times, Christianity is not the same as it was 1900 years ago. There were plenty of Jewish Christians then, but no branch of Christianity has maintained that tradition unbroken. The same goes for Judaism. The Jews of the 2nd Temple period would not be recognized as Jews today, because Judaism is very different. There's so much more to Judaism than just the written Torah.

It would be like a new, small country mimicking our Bill of Rights. Then someone coming along to say they were just trying to become an American state. One does not follow the other. The Bill of Rights is a pretty good template for anyone, and so is the Torah. I'm also opposed to the idea that the Jewish people have some sort of trademark on the Torah. The Torah belongs to God, not any single group of people.

Wait.. have we discussed when the Sabbath actually occurs? Jewish tradition is sundown on Friday night to sundown on Saturday night. How did it jump to Sunday for Christians?

It doesn't "belong" to them, but it was given specifically to Israel, for a specific purpose, and for a specific cause (because of transgressions).

I don't think it is bad to take the principle that God wants men to love each other, and the sabbath is part of that. But the details matter... I mean, the "why" matters. A lot of people read the Torah and want to follow the Torah in a way that makes them want to be Israelites whether they mean to or not - and that is something St Paul severely condemns.

The whole doing it by yourself thing... I think that carries some spiritual risk. The Torah wasn't given to a man, but to a people. Same with the Faith. Yes, you can take a monastic type vow, but nearly all monastics live in communities, too - and even those who don't are part of the Christian people, they have the nomos of a Christian. And those hermits usually have a spiritual father for guidance as well.

You and I have no quarrel, and you know I respect you tremendously, so I hope you don't take any of this as personal criticism.

Sunday is not the Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day.

Zobel said:

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It doesn't "belong" to them, but it was given specifically to Israel, for a specific purpose, and for a specific cause (because of transgressions).

I don't think it is bad to take the principle that God wants men to love each other, and the sabbath is part of that. But the details matter... I mean, the "why" matters. A lot of people read the Torah and want to follow the Torah in a way that makes them want to be Israelites whether they mean to or not - and that is something St Paul severely condemns.

The whole doing it by yourself thing... I think that carries some spiritual risk. The Torah wasn't given to a man, but to a people. Same with the Faith. Yes, you can take a monastic type vow, but nearly all monastics live in communities, too - and even those who don't are part of the Christian people, they have the nomos of a Christian. And those hermits usually have a spiritual father for guidance as well.

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I agree on the spiritual risk part. I've seen a lot of people take a similar path and become very self-righteous and judgmental. I've seen a lot of people go down this road and fully convert to Judaism, ultimately denying Christ. On the other hand, I think Torah observance has made me a "better" Christian more than anything else in my life. If you keep the Sabbath but don't show compassion, then your Sabbath worship is meaningless. If you follow dietary laws and don't extend grace, then the same. And on and on. It's a very easy thing to avoid pork and shellfish, but it is a very difficult thing to forgive someone who has wronged you. But they both use the same will, and doing little things is like exercising a muscle. When it comes time to doing big things, you have tons of practice with the little ones.

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You and I have no quarrel, and you know I respect you tremendously, so I hope you don't take any of this as personal criticism.

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Thank you! I wasn't taking any of this in that way. You're definitely on my short list of people that I look for when browsing threads. You've always got a good insight and an apparently inexhaustible supply of great sources

Zobel said:

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Sunday is not the Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day.

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So this is true -

The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. The Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law.

From what I've gathered the early church had Saturday sabbath and Sunday as the Lords day. Just like the other commandments were expanded on so too was the Sabbath. It wasn't merely a day of rest from work. But a day to be separated from the secular. Meaning the things of the flesh and present. So then you would focus on heavenly things and tbe coming judgement of God. Essentially a weekly one day fast.

Then the Lords day was a day of gathering, Ecclesiastes, of breaking bread in communion, standing in worship to celebrate the rising of the Lord.

I may be wrong but also from what I've gathered it seems the Roman cathedral lox church banned the sabbath and made the lords day supreme as the day or worship

Interesting. Has it been a positive looking back on that journey?

The entire Torah and the Psalms and Prophets were given to Israel - not just the Sabbath. But the righteousness of God was revealed apart from the Torah, and we are made righteous apart from the Torah - and this teaching doesn't invalidate the Torah but upholds it.

There is no dichotomy between Israel and the Church. Israel was the people of God - "a mixed multitude went out of Egypt" - and not limited to the genetic offspring of Jacob. The assembled people of God is why we use the word ecclesia or assembly for the Church. Same word in the scriptures, old testament or new. The singular Israel was fractured, the entire Northern Kingdom was destroyed, and all of the tribes except for Benjamin, Judah, and part of Levi were lost entirely. They were dispersed into the gentile nations, gone forever. But, through the grace of God, as the gentiles return to worshipping the one true God, those lost of Israel are restored in them. The gentiles are grafted back in to the vine, and the promises made to Abraham which flow to the singular seed and heir of all in Christ are extended to All Israel, which includes the Judaeans and the faithful gentiles who are grafted in. Just like Joseph was sent out from Israel through evil to save Egypt, and Jacob and his family, and many nations around Egypt, the tribes of the northern kingdom were dispersed out and reconstituted in gentiles to save the whole world. But, the gentiles are grafted in - they do not become Judaeans or sons of Israel, but join to Israel much like the Edomites, and because of that relationship to the Heir, are blessed and inherit the portion of the promises. They are adopted. So the Torah was given to Israel, and the Church is All Israel (the three remaining tribes of the sons of Israel, plus the new non-sons-of-Israel who are grafted in).

The Sabbath is part of the Torah - I don't like using the word Law because it means something entirely different in modern usage than lex did when it was first translated to Latin. We think of Law as legal code, but Torah means teaching. In Greek they used nomos to translate it which was used to describe custom, normal use, laws of a city, the rules of music. When spoke of people it was used like we use "nurture" as opposed to "nature" - what part of being a person is by nomos vs by nature. It included the laws of a people, yes - but also their habits, their customs, what they ate, how they dressed, how they fought wars, how they worshipped, how they lived...what made them that people distinctly as opposed to any other. At the time of translating Greek to Latin lex had this broad meaning. So.. perhaps we should say the Sabbath was part of the Old Testament way of life. At any rate it is certainly part of the Torah. And if we read the Torah carefully, you can see which parts of the Torah given to Israel applied to them, specifically, and which applied to everyone.

Sorry for the long answer but this is a tricky subject with some minefields of modernism imbedded.

Early early, the faithful Christians went to synagogue on Saturday (or the Temple in Jerusalem) and met separately for the Eucharist on the Lord's day. When they were put out of the synagogues, this custom changed.

You can actually still see the vestigial remnants of the two services in the liturgy and mass today. We have two distinct services - the Liturgy of the Word, and the Liturgy of the Faithful. The Liturgy of the Word contains the prayers, litanies, hymns and psalms, procession with the Gospel book, reading of the Epistle and Gospel, and the homily. The Liturgy of the Word is very similar to an Orthodox synagogue service. Then the service ends with the dismissal of the non-baptized, and the next immediately begins which is the prayers and supplications leading up to the Eucharist. They're just smooshed together.

Saturday isn't a fast though - the Judaean practice was very, very early altered by the Christians to fast on Wednesday (for the Betrayal) and Friday (for the Crucifixion). You can see this attested to in the Didache.

And being really nit-picky, the practice of the early Church was prayers in the Church twice a day, every day - morning and evening, with the offering of incense. This is a continuation and extension of the worship of the Torah and Temple, as foretold by the prophets. And this remains in practice today with morning and evening prayers said at home by the faithful, typically with the burning of incense, as a way to participate in that cycle of prayers.

Curious why burn incense?

Because this is the most basic building block of worship. The sort of foundational level of Temple / Tabernacle worship is the cycle of offering incense morning and evening. And not just for Israel, but for all the nations. This is why Christians would not offer incense to idols or the genius of the emperor.

As for why incense? Because offerings and sacrifices are best understood as hospitality and gifts... welcoming gifts. We are inviting fellowship with God - as the scriptures say, a pleasing aroma. And our prayers and worship arise like incense - "Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice" - "And the smoke of the incense went up before God, with the prayers of the saints, out of the hand of the angel."


We pray as a community, apart, when we cannot pray as a community together.

So you're engaging in a parable outlined in the Torah. How is that any different than keeping the sabbath? Which is also a parable for the future and reminder of history.

What parable? Malachi speaks that gentiles will offer incense to the Lord. Psalms and Revelation talk about prayer arising as incense. Not in the Torah.

The offering of incense as a form of worship was omnipresent in the ancient world. Not unique to Israel.

Parable in the sense that Incense is a parable of true prayers of the faithful. If you're taking the incense I'd revelation as literal do you do the same for the rest of it? Like a literal beast standing in the sea and on the earth?

Who said literal? Malachi is literal. Prayer rises like incense - a sacrifice of praise. And for thousands of years, this is how we have worshipped.