No that's not at all what I'm saying. I listed several reasons why one should seek and pray for others on earth.

I question the benefit of heavenly residences. Still haven't had a good answer.

Yeah but all the reasons you gave were about how it benefited them for you to ask for their prayers. I'm saying it benefits you for them to pray for you. And if that person is righteous, more righteous than you, then it is even better. And that's why the prayers of the saints are good. They are made righteous. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

As for saints in general - a bit of a digression - but the scriptures say we will be like the angels. The promise to Abraham about his offspring has both quantitative and qualitative values - like the stars in both quantity and quality. As Ambrose of Milan says - "how did Abraham's progeny spread? Only through the inheritance he transmitted in virtue of faith. On this basis the faithful are assimilated to heaven, made comparable to the angels, equal to the stars. This is why he said, 'so will your descendants be.'" Everywhere in the Hebrew scriptures, stars are angels, sons of God are angels (for example, Job 38:7, Daniel 12:3, Rev 1:20 and 12:4)

Angels had jobs. The angels governed the heavens, the seasons, and the nations. In the OT we see that after Babel, the nations were assigned to angels (cf Genesis 10, 11:1-9, and Deuteronomy 32:7-9). These angels fell out of disobedience, and accepted worship from the humans they were supposed to guide - excepting Michael, who is the Angel of Israel (Dan 12:1). These are the demons the nations worship (1 Cor 10:20, Deut 32:17). The saints replace these fallen angels, and become patrons and active participants in God's rule and administration of His kingdom. For example when the apostles preached the gospel in, say, Thessaloniki, and those people throw off the chains of the demons they worshipped, they later had a new patron - St Demetrius. People have patron saints who pray for them, and are named after them and baptized after their name (1 Corinthians 15:29). So, when you know someone who has cancer, St Nektarios seems to have a particular blessing for prayers for people with cancer. Ask him to pray for them, and you add your prayers too! St Patrick is the patron of engineers, I ask for his prayers. And so on.

Love the digression. Awesome stuff!

It benefits me because they can give encouragement etc and creates intimacy and builds relationships etc. my examples or reasons are two way streets. But that mutual relationship of praying for one another is tangible.

Who is more righteous than Jesus? Again what is achieved by including saints in heaven?

Jesus sit at the right of hand of God in heaven actively interceding on our behalf's. To me asking anyone in heaven is kind of a front to Jesus. Why not ask Him? Why not trust His intercession is sufficient?

This is my struggle understanding this entire concept.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Love the digression. Awesome stuff!

It benefits me because they can give encouragement etc and creates intimacy and builds relationships etc. my examples or reasons are two way streets. But that mutual relationship of praying for one another is tangible.

Who is more righteous than Jesus? Again what is achieved by including saints in heaven?

Jesus sit at the right of hand of God in heaven actively interceding on our behalf's. To me asking anyone in heaven is kind of a front to Jesus. Why not ask Him? Why not trust His intercession is sufficient?

This is my struggle understanding this entire concept.

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I think part of your struggle is that you view the saints in heaven as being separated from those of us living on earth - but we see them as actively working with us to help us just like you might help your neighbor. The only difference to us is that we know Mary and the saints are already in their eternal reward in heaven with Jesus always. The communion of saints is very real, and like our family and friends, the saints are hoping we will ask them for our help in our need and they are joyful to present our needs before the Lord along side us.

You just want Jesus and only Jesus, but Jesus wants you and he wants everyone else too. He wants us all seeking to help each other wherever and whenever we can. Yes, We have a personal and individual relationship with Christ, but we also have a relationship and obligation as Christians to each other to help each other in our walks and in our faith and in our lives. It is not an either/or but a both/and. When you only want Jesus you are excluding everyone else and you are living in a silo and distancing yourself from the Saints who are also members of the Body of Christ. This does not take away from God but this honors and adds to God because we grow closer to each other and to God in the process.

Jesus = Infinity and the saints are constantly adding +1 +1 +1 +1

No one said not to ask Him. But we ask for prayers from each other, from our family and friends, or our pastor. We're commanded to pray for each other. The saints pray for us too. Our faith is a team sport, and they're part of that team. It is not just us and Jesus.

His intercession is sufficient, He intercedes with the father. But we can intercede for each other to Him - we are commanded to.

Do you need your preacher to lead you to Jesus? Do you need your own mother and father to lead you to Jesus? Or do they play NO part in your being led to Jesus. If they do play a part (say yes), then you should know that Mary's soul magnifies the Lord, and she is the greatest woman (full of grace) ever created, and she can do a much better job of seeing that you get to her son the best and fastest way ever. She is much greater than your own mother, father, and preacher.

I know this is true, because once I consecrated myself to Jesus through Mary, my Christianity/evangelization/overcoming my sinful nature became turbocharged...Try it..You'll see...

Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

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Yes. What are the saints praying for? Do they have any knowledge of what needs praying for or are they just making random prayers?

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The saints pray for the Church, just as we all do.

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Just in general. "Bless the church lord" over and over again? Do you believe in Demons? Do they know what humans are doing on earth?

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It was you who referenced Revelation right?

Revelation 7:9-10

"9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"


This is what we know. Nothing indicates they hear specific prayers.

I'm not sure what demons have to do with anything?

No doubt but all the people I ask those relationships are impacted. I have no relationship with saints in heaven of years ago. To me asking for saints prayer in heaven is so one sided it seems akin to stuff in the charismatic movements. How can anyone attest to anything when you pray to saints? It's kind of like "my convictions" etc.

If I ask a saint to pray for me then what? Is a prayer more likely to be answered if I ask a saint vs Jesus? How is it beneficial?

For clarity I'm not trying to advocate for a Protestant view. I clearly have little exposure to this line of thinking etc and trying to wrap my mind around it.

I've been trying to read early church fathers. I'm a decent way through ANTE-NICENE FATHERS and haven't come across any of this praying to saints or Mary or Mary is sinless etc.

St. James says that the prayers of a righteous person are powerful, and who is more righteous than someone who is alive and in heaven? And they can pray for you 24/7...

But those are all real two way conversations and relationships. I have zero relationship with saints. And those people like me are in this world. Doing a good work, running the race. While those in heaven have finished the race. Albeit they are praying but for what we do not know.

And who is more righteous than Jesus who is interceding and who is our groomsman and who is our kinsmen redeemer and who is sitting at the right hand of the Father and who has been given all authority. He is there. Willing and able to receive our prayers.

To me I would fear insulting Him to ask anyone other than Him.

The more folks I have praying for me, the better...

Zobel said:

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Again, by this logic you should never ask anyone else to pray for you.

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No there are demonstrable benefits that exist with earthly people that are not demonstrable with heavenly people.

You're over simplifying the differences of people in earth and those in heaven. I can call a friend and they will drive over, come into my house and pray with me.

Non of the saints are doing that.

But I guess I'm just missing out and y'all have these unbelievable relationships with people residing in heaven.

Are you only praying to God to get stuff and simply have prayers answered?

God is love and God desires relationship with all of us, and part of that relationship is our fellow Christians and the communion of the saints. Everyone is important to God, even the lowliest like his handmaid. I am struggling to understand the "go it alone and straight to the top" mentality you seem to have where the only one that matters is Jesus and everyone else is irrelevant.

You can use this exact same argument and replace "the saints" with "Jesus Christ".

I was responding to the post about a righteous person prays are powerful. And I asked who is more righteous than Jesus. Not to get stuff.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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You're over simplifying your be differences of people in earth and those in heaven. I can call a friend and they will drive over, come into my house and pray with me.

Non of the saints are doing that.

But I guess I'm just missing out and y'all have these unbelievable relationships with people residing in heaven.

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Every time I lose something and invoke the help of St. Anthony whatever I have lost is almost immediately found. It's not magic, but it really is awesome when I have been looking for something and then I think… "Hey, St. Anthony my friend…could you help me out on this one?" And boom - lost item found!

Are saints omnipresent? I mean Jesus is different… He is always with us… y verses teach that.

Does Jesus drive to your house and hang out with you?

You're basically saying that without that you can't have a relationship.

I guess what I am trying to help articulate is that God is not offended when we reflect on the lives of the saints and ask for their intercession, but rather God is glorified by it because those saints we holy and devoted followers of Christ who reflected his love by their lives. Ignoring all of the saints and their powerful witness is like going to the party but speaking to nobody except the host. The host wants you to have a great time, and he hopes you make some new friends along the way.

The Lord says guardian angels continually see the face of the Father in heaven, as a warning - implying that wronging children is something those angels a) know and b) will intercede.

If the saints in glory are like the angels, it seems that when we pray to them they will a) know and b) will intercede.

No. I'm giving an example of how with one single aspect there are massive differences between believers on earth and in heaven and you're acting like this is none. Keep saying if I don't pray to saints in heaven then why do I ask earthly people for prayer. Well there's differences.

But maybe y'all are all right and I'm completely missing out with relationships with people who don't talk to me.

Or… you could just pray to Jesus who also knows and intercedes.

People ask for prayer requests on this forum all the time. There's not necessarily a relationship there, nobody is driving to anyone's house. Are those prayers pointless?

AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

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Yes. What are the saints praying for? Do they have any knowledge of what needs praying for or are they just making random prayers?

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The saints pray for the Church, just as we all do.

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Just in general. "Bless the church lord" over and over again? Do you believe in Demons? Do they know what humans are doing on earth?

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It was you who referenced Revelation right?

Revelation 7:9-10

"9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"


This is what we know. Nothing indicates they hear specific prayers.

I'm not sure what demons have to do with anything?

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I'm wondering why you think demons are able to know what humanity is doing and thinking and saints are not.

And the Revelation verse I'm speaking of is 8:4

All you're doing is continually arguing that asking other people for prayers is a waste of time and potentially insulting to the Lord.

Again that is not at all what I'm saying. For about the 4th time now. You keep saying I'm saying something I'm adamantly trying to tell you I'm not.

There are differences. Then I give an example and you try throwing that in my face as If that one example is my entire point or desired outcome with a relationship.

Just so we're clear - every time you respond with "or you could just pray to Jesus" that is completely as applicable to asking any person to pray for you. Because if Jesus is our sole intercessor and as you say He is the most righteous, willing and able to hear our prayers, "you would fear insulting Him to ask anyone other than Him", and those are reasons to not ask the saints to pray for you, they're also reasons to not ask other people. Because all of this is just as true for asking your buddy, or your parents, or your pastor to pray for you.

So every time you say that, this is absolutely an argument against asking someone to pray for you. Whether you mean it or not the logical conclusion is 100% there.

And obviously this is not true, which is why you keep saying that isn't what you mean. So... can we remove that as an objection? Because it's obviously not correct.

Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Quo Vadis? said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you rephrase?

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Yes. What are the saints praying for? Do they have any knowledge of what needs praying for or are they just making random prayers?

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The saints pray for the Church, just as we all do.

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Just in general. "Bless the church lord" over and over again? Do you believe in Demons? Do they know what humans are doing on earth?

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It was you who referenced Revelation right?

Revelation 7:9-10

"9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"


This is what we know. Nothing indicates they hear specific prayers.

I'm not sure what demons have to do with anything?

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I'm wondering why you think demons are able to know what humanity is doing and thinking and saints are not.

And the Revelation verse I'm speaking of is 8:4

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We don't attribute to demons what you are trying to attribute to the saints?

Do people claim demons can be in multiple places at once? Or have the ability to hear multiple people at once?

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time when a demon affected more than 1 person at a time (one exception that comes to mind is the multitude of demons (legion) that affected a single person).

Zobel said:

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People ask for prayer requests on this forum all the time. There's not necessarily a relationship there, nobody is driving to anyone's house. Are those prayers pointless?

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This is a wonderful example of the protestant argument.

As you pointed out, we can ask someone for prayer, but we have no idea if anybody read it or did anything about it....kind of like the saints...

Thank you for the example.

Next time someone asks for prayers, be sure to tell them how dumb that was.

Zobel said:

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Next time someone asks for prayers, be sure to tell them how dumb that was.

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Dude...you're made a bad argument...it's going to be ok.

No need to make it personal.