Edit because this is becoming a fruitless conversation
Immaculate Heart of Mary
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Last: 2 mo ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
Worship is sacrificial ritual. The church offers sacrifices, we participate in them ritually. We offer incense daily, and when we do the priest blesses it, saying "We offer to Thee, Christ our God, this incense as a spiritual fragrance; receive it, we pray, to Thy heavenly altar and send down to us, in return, the grace of Thy Holy Spirit." We offer it to the heavenly altar, which the altar of incense in the Tabernacle was a copy. The wording we use is the same as the language describing sacrificial burnt offerings, a pleasing aroma. This is sacrificial language, the same used of our gifts (Phil 4:18), Christ's sacrificial self-offering (Eph 5:2), and our own self-offering (2 Cor 2:15, Ezek 20:41 useful to compare to Romans 12:1). The prayers we offer are also a form of sacrifice, and they accompany the incense - as we quote in our services "a sacrifice of praise" (Heb 12:25, 13:15, Jeremiah 17:26, 33:11, Psalm 56:12). Our almsgiving, as St Paul tells the Philippians, are also sacrifices.Quote:
How does one worship God today? What sacrifices?
And of course we offer the Eucharist, sacrifice par excellence. This fulfills all of the sacrifices commanded in the Torah - not only sin offerings (which were not the primary sacrifice) but also the grain offering in the bread, the drink offering in the wine, the firstfruits offering (1 Cor 15:20,23), the offering for the firstborn male child, the day of atonement, all as foretold in the pattern of Melchizedek, whom St Paul connects to the priesthood of Christ (Ps 110:4, Heb 7:13-17). When we offer the Eucharist we offer "ourselves, and each other, and our whole lives unto Christ our God" as we say in the liturgy multiple times - see Romans 12:1 - and in return God offers us Himself. He offers Himself to God as a pleasing sacrifice, and makes propitiation and expiation for sins in Himself, covering for the sins of the whole world in the once-for-all sacrifice (Heb 10:10-18). This sacrifice we participate in - we join in, are partakers of - literally commune with - and completely takes up and fulfills all of the sacrifices commanded by the Lord in the Torah.
Hm, I don't think it is fruitless. I don't mind your comments, because rather than argue I think it is an opportunity to show the very different approach - which is OK.
The thing is, the process of salvation is not simply "believe in Jesus". If that were the case St Paul's letters could be much, much shorter. Instead we are told to walk, to behave a certain way, to love each other, to minister to each other, to submit to our leaders and each other, to try to outdo each other in acts of love, to avoid sin, to join each other in corporate worship, and so on and so on. In other words the process of salvation is a team sport.
And of course the Lord involved many people to bring about salvation. Those people are the saints, and His synergy with mankind as a grace and means of salvation to humans didn't stop in the NT pages.
I mean... you say you're not denigrating the Theotokos, but look at this language. "She was used to birth Jesus". Like some kind of disposable incubator. Was your mother "used" to birth you? Of course not! Who would speak of their own mother like that? She demonstrated an incredible faith and submitted to the Lord in obedience. She voluntarily did this, she wasn't used, she participated in the story of salvation. So we honor her, and when we say "Most Holy Theotokos save us" we're asking for her prayers in the same sense as St Paul says a wife or husband might save their spouse (1 Cor 7:16) and we're also entering into the moment of the Incarnation, praying for her to say "yes!" at the Annunciation so that the whole world may be saved by our prayers.
We don't treat Pilate the same way because he is not a saint.
The thing is, the process of salvation is not simply "believe in Jesus". If that were the case St Paul's letters could be much, much shorter. Instead we are told to walk, to behave a certain way, to love each other, to minister to each other, to submit to our leaders and each other, to try to outdo each other in acts of love, to avoid sin, to join each other in corporate worship, and so on and so on. In other words the process of salvation is a team sport.
And of course the Lord involved many people to bring about salvation. Those people are the saints, and His synergy with mankind as a grace and means of salvation to humans didn't stop in the NT pages.
I mean... you say you're not denigrating the Theotokos, but look at this language. "She was used to birth Jesus". Like some kind of disposable incubator. Was your mother "used" to birth you? Of course not! Who would speak of their own mother like that? She demonstrated an incredible faith and submitted to the Lord in obedience. She voluntarily did this, she wasn't used, she participated in the story of salvation. So we honor her, and when we say "Most Holy Theotokos save us" we're asking for her prayers in the same sense as St Paul says a wife or husband might save their spouse (1 Cor 7:16) and we're also entering into the moment of the Incarnation, praying for her to say "yes!" at the Annunciation so that the whole world may be saved by our prayers.
We don't treat Pilate the same way because he is not a saint.
Yes. But what is minimalist is how you understand that everything. That everything includes the Theotokos! That is precisely the point. Your "everything" is smaller than my "everything"!Quote:
The point is Jesus is the complete fulfillment. He is our everything. Not a minimalist view at all. You keep saying I'm taking a minimalist view by saying Jesus is everything. That's absurd.
Please tell me how it came to be that the God of Israel became incarnate for our salvation.Quote:
Please show the Gospel message in scripture saying you need Mary and Jesus for Salvation.
The Philippian Jailer Saved (Acts 16)Zobel said:
The thing is, the process of salvation is not simply "believe in Jesus". If that were the case St Paul's letters could be much, much shorter.
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
Great. Now read the rest of the NT.
You mean the rest of the NT where Paul talks about Mary being the fastest and best way to Christ?
Yukon Cornelius said:
How does one worship God today? What sacrifices?
The Eucharist. In the Mass and the Divine Liturgy we are there to worship Christ in the Eucharist and receive him through the sacrifice offered in the body and blood of Christ. Sacrifice has always been the proper way to worship God.
Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God and offered the sacrifice of bread and wine to Abram (in Genesis). The Manna (both bread and flesh) came down from Heaven. The Bread of the Presence was perpetually due before God in the Tabernacle. And the Passover Lamb that must be consumed to be saved. And John 6 tells us how Jesus fulfills it all by giving us his flesh and blood that is true food and true drink, and he clearly instructs his followers (us) that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. And then the Lamb of God initiates his sacrifice at the last supper in the upper room before laying down his life for us on the cross. He makes himself known in the breaking of the bread with his disciples following his glorious resurrection. And then we see the Apostles and NT writers highlight the importance of the Eucharist so much so that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is eating and drinking damnation upon your soul. The Eucharist is the sacrifice and it is offered to us by Christ through his priests at every Mass.
The temple veil being torn was symbolic of the flesh of Christ being torn and his making the sacrifice available everywhere to everyone. Up until that moment the only real sacrifice was offered in the Holy of Holies by the High Priest behind the veil. The veil was torn because Jesus is the true High Priest and he now comes to us through the mystery of the Eucharist where he meets us and enters into us physically and spiritually. The direct access we now have to God is found in the Eucharist, and through God's Sacraments.
It has always been sacrificial worship and it remains sacrificial worship today. That is why no Catholic or Orthodox would ever be confused about veneration to Mary or the Saints vs. worship to God. They are entirely different things.
10andBOUNCE said:
You mean the rest of the NT where Paul talks about Mary being the fastest and best way to Christ?
How do you think the Bereans found Christ? They examined the Scriptures (OT) to see if what they were being taught was true so HOW did they find the risen Jesus in the OT scriptures. WHAT were they looking for? Specifically, who and what were the signs they needed to find and confirm?
As I was pondering some of the posts in this thread yesterday, this point came to mind. Being at the Holy Mass / Divine Liturgy is in a different realm than the various devotions to Our Lady and the other Saints. It's hard to put into words, which is why it was stated earlier that it must be experienced.Faithful Ag said:Yukon Cornelius said:
How does one worship God today? What sacrifices?
The Eucharist. In the Mass and the Divine Liturgy we are there to worship Christ in the Eucharist and receive him through the sacrifice offered in the body and blood of Christ. Sacrifice has always been the proper way to worship God.
Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God and offered the sacrifice of bread and wine to Abram (in Genesis). The Manna (both bread and flesh) came down from Heaven. The Bread of the Presence was perpetually due before God in the Tabernacle. And the Passover Lamb that must be consumed to be saved. And John 6 tells us how Jesus fulfills it all by giving us his flesh and blood that is true food and true drink, and he clearly instructs his followers (us) that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. And we are the Lamb of God I vi his sacrifice at the last supper in the upper room before laying down his life for us on the cross. He makes himself known in the breaking of the bread with his disciples following his glorious resurrection. And then we see the Apostles and NT writers highlight the importance of the Eucharist so much so that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is eating and drinking damnation upon your soul. The Eucharist is the sacrifice and it is offered to us by Christ through his priests at every Mass.
The temple veil being torn was symbolic of the flesh of Christ being torn and his making the sacrifice available everywhere to everyone. Up until that moment the only real sacrifice was offered in the Holy of Holies by the High Priest behind the veil. The veil was torn because Jesus is the true High Priest and he now comes to us through the mystery of the Eucharist where he meets us and enters into us physically and spiritually. The direct access we now have to God is found in the Eucharist, and through God's Sacraments.
It has always been sacrificial worship and it remains sacrificial worship today. That is why no Catholic or Orthodox would ever be confused about veneration to Mary or the Saints vs. worship to God. They are entirely different things.
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
we are not talking about creating an experience, but rather humbly placing ourselves at the foot of the altar and at the mercy of God. Literally. Worship is the sacrifice and that is the experience. We are not talking about "pastors" riding in on motorcycles or hummers with rock bands. We are talking about placing ourselves at the foot of the cross and recognizing that we are lowly sinners and yet Jesus makes himself known and and available to us in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Body and Blood we receive from Him.10andBOUNCE said:
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice
And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Are these not describing true worship isn't found in ritual acts of sacrifice but in praise and thanksgiving?
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice
And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Are these not describing true worship isn't found in ritual acts of sacrifice but in praise and thanksgiving?
Faithful Ag said:we are not talking about creating an experience, but rather humbly placing ourselves at the foot of the altar and at the mercy of God. Literally. Worship is the sacrifice and that is the experience. We are not talking about "pastors" riding in on motorcycles or hummers with rock bands. We are talking about placing ourselves at the foot of the cross and recognizing that we are lowly sinners and yet Jesus makes himself known and and available to us in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Body and Blood we receive from Him.10andBOUNCE said:
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
Nor is experience intended to be the discernment of Truth or what is fitting worship of the Almighty. Rather, my point was that experiencing or observing the Mass versus experiencing or observing the recitation of the Rosary versus experiencing what happens at your church on any given Sunday. To compare and contrast it all... the music, the prayers, the movements of the priest/pastor, the actions of the congregation, the presence of silence or not, incense. All to help illustrate what our various communities mean when we say "worship" or "prayer".
10andBOUNCE said:
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
There's very much truth to this in the right context.
Experience can have various meanings. A lot of times, you will have a Protestant move to Rome or EO because they walk into one of their Churches and they see and experience more depth than they are getting at their standard big box non-denom type church. Seeing icons on the walls or a cross or Priest/Pastors in vestments can really impact a person. (I know this from personal experience).
You also see the "experience" driven approach of the more pentacostal types that really play to your emotions, and frankly it's become a science on how to rev people's emotions to get a response.
The problem, as you note, is that the experience fades and when that fades, there needs to be doctrine to support the believer and in many many cases, once the initial awe fades, many are left wanting.
I mean if we're talking Psalm 50 we need to finish it - "Then will you delight in righteous sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then bulls will be offered on your altar."
God commanded sacrifices. The pinnacle of sacrifice is Christ's self-offering on the cross, Hebrews has an entire meditation on that.
I think it helps to understand what sacrifices are. Our modern language has focused on the death / killing / burning part, to the detriment of the reality, which is a relationship model. Sacrifices were gifts that involved hospitality and relationship... mutual giving and honoring. They deepened existing relationships and also served to mend broken relationships - for example, see how Jacob propitiates Esau and Joseph (before he knew who he was). God gives us gifts, and we give back to Him in this beautiful ever-deepening relationship. Sacrifices are at their hospitality - good smells to invite in (incense) and most often food. Sacrifice is a joint meal with our God.
But when we break that relationship through sin, the first thing to do is repent, to fix it. When you anger someone or break a relationship, when you're unfaithful, a meal at your home isn't how to fix it. That comes after the fix as a way to restore fellowship. So that's why the Lord is not satisfied with offerings - their hearts were far from God, so the offerings were distasteful to Him. He didn't want sacrifice for sacrifice sake, He wanted it for relationship sake. But before you offer your gift, go reconcile with your brother, as the Lord says, and so be reconciled to God. That's what we're doing when we sacrifice today, deepening that relationship through mutual self-offering.
God commanded sacrifices. The pinnacle of sacrifice is Christ's self-offering on the cross, Hebrews has an entire meditation on that.
I think it helps to understand what sacrifices are. Our modern language has focused on the death / killing / burning part, to the detriment of the reality, which is a relationship model. Sacrifices were gifts that involved hospitality and relationship... mutual giving and honoring. They deepened existing relationships and also served to mend broken relationships - for example, see how Jacob propitiates Esau and Joseph (before he knew who he was). God gives us gifts, and we give back to Him in this beautiful ever-deepening relationship. Sacrifices are at their hospitality - good smells to invite in (incense) and most often food. Sacrifice is a joint meal with our God.
But when we break that relationship through sin, the first thing to do is repent, to fix it. When you anger someone or break a relationship, when you're unfaithful, a meal at your home isn't how to fix it. That comes after the fix as a way to restore fellowship. So that's why the Lord is not satisfied with offerings - their hearts were far from God, so the offerings were distasteful to Him. He didn't want sacrifice for sacrifice sake, He wanted it for relationship sake. But before you offer your gift, go reconcile with your brother, as the Lord says, and so be reconciled to God. That's what we're doing when we sacrifice today, deepening that relationship through mutual self-offering.
That's an awesome explanation! Thank you
Reminds me of this verse
Revelation 3:1920 (ESV): Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Reminds me of this verse
Revelation 3:1920 (ESV): Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
No, I mean where he goes on to describe what faithfulness looks like. There's only one word in Greek for believe/be faithful, so we need to be careful when we use a modern word that has a very different connotation than the original. We don't use "faith" as a verb in English, so "believe" is our go-to, but that word has baggage.
Acts 16:31 can be translated just as correctly as "Be faithful to the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." Then the scriptures rather than being a strange appendage to "belief" suddenly become an exposition on what faithfulness looks like.
Acts 16:31 can be translated just as correctly as "Be faithful to the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." Then the scriptures rather than being a strange appendage to "belief" suddenly become an exposition on what faithfulness looks like.
While I may not agree on the RCC pieces of this, I think you're disposition is spot on. I was definitely not insinuating anything since I have no experience with the RCC mass "experience" - if anything I was poking at protestants and the "experience" they try to facilitate at the expense of truth.Faithful Ag said:we are not talking about creating an experience, but rather humbly placing ourselves at the foot of the altar and at the mercy of God. Literally. Worship is the sacrifice and that is the experience. We are not talking about "pastors" riding in on motorcycles or hummers with rock bands. We are talking about placing ourselves at the foot of the cross and recognizing that we are lowly sinners and yet Jesus makes himself known and and available to us in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Body and Blood we receive from Him.10andBOUNCE said:
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
In the end, we have nothing else but experience. Our faith is that of revelation - as the Psalm says, "God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us."Quote:
IMO "experience" is a dangerous word to use when talking about doctrine, dogma and the Christian life. Experience is starting to get into the modern liberalism theology that is running rampant in churches today and must be rejected.
But this isn't to say it is personal experience. It is a corporate experience, shared, and taught publicly.
Great dot to connect, yes! There's a really good book on this subject called "Welcoming Gifts" by Jeremy Davis that was a big lightbulb for me.
Faithful Ag said:Yukon Cornelius said:
How does one worship God today? What sacrifices?
The Eucharist. In the Mass and the Divine Liturgy we are there to worship Christ in the Eucharist and receive him through the sacrifice offered in the body and blood of Christ. Sacrifice has always been the proper way to worship God.
Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God and offered the sacrifice of bread and wine to Abram (in Genesis). The Manna (both bread and flesh) came down from Heaven. The Bread of the Presence was perpetually due before God in the Tabernacle. And the Passover Lamb that must be consumed to be saved. And John 6 tells us how Jesus fulfills it all by giving us his flesh and blood that is true food and true drink, and he clearly instructs his followers (us) that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. And then the Lamb of God initiates his sacrifice at the last supper in the upper room before laying down his life for us on the cross. He makes himself known in the breaking of the bread with his disciples following his glorious resurrection. And then we see the Apostles and NT writers highlight the importance of the Eucharist so much so that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is eating and drinking damnation upon your soul. The Eucharist is the sacrifice and it is offered to us by Christ through his priests at every Mass.
The temple veil being torn was symbolic of the flesh of Christ being torn and his making the sacrifice available everywhere to everyone. Up until that moment the only real sacrifice was offered in the Holy of Holies by the High Priest behind the veil. The veil was torn because Jesus is the true High Priest and he now comes to us through the mystery of the Eucharist where he meets us and enters into us physically and spiritually. The direct access we now have to God is found in the Eucharist, and through God's Sacraments.
It has always been sacrificial worship and it remains sacrificial worship today. That is why no Catholic or Orthodox would ever be confused about veneration to Mary or the Saints vs. worship to God. They are entirely different things.
I would add that the tearing of the veil also makes it possible for us to participate in the sacrifice that Jesus is offering to the father on our behalf so that we can rejoice in our sufferings as we make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Jesus for the sake of his body, the Church.
Zobel said:
No, I mean where he goes on to describe what faithfulness looks like. There's only one word in Greek for believe/be faithful, so we need to be careful when we use a modern word that has a very different connotation than the original. We don't use "faith" as a verb in English, so "believe" is our go-to, but that word has baggage.
Acts 16:31 can be translated just as correctly as "Be faithful to the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." Then the scriptures rather than being a strange appendage to "belief" suddenly become an exposition on what faithfulness looks like.
Faith through love and obedience.
10andBOUNCE said:The Philippian Jailer Saved (Acts 16)Zobel said:
The thing is, the process of salvation is not simply "believe in Jesus". If that were the case St Paul's letters could be much, much shorter.
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here."
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
We have to ask ourself what does it mean to believe in Jesus?
There's the initial Justification, that is to say, because of God's grace, He comes to us and begins to change our heart to the point, we can have faith at all.
In this initial justification, we find salvation fully and completely. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us and our sinful nature is declared righteous before God because of this.
But outside of the "one saved, always saved" crowd, faith and justification are not a single event. Because what is faith other than to follow the commandments that we were created by God to live out? So we live our faith by doing just that each day.
That is why we can say we "were justified, we are being justified, and we will be justified." Our justification is initially through Jesus, but by continuing in the faith, we are renewed and resaved every day of our life.
There is another aspect (that gets blurred with some groups) of overemphasizing our works in salvation. Yes our works can help us to become more sanctified and more "holy," but our flesh in this lifetime is always against us, always wanting to sin. We struggle against it, but ultimately fail everyday of our life (hence we ask that our trespasses be forgiven daily). Sanctification is an important part of our journey, not towards salvation, but towards honoring God and His desires for us.
The reformed faith would differ from this in that Justification is a once time, non-repeatable act of God. Sanctification on the other hand is the progressive, ongoing work of God's grace.
10andBOUNCE said:
The reformed faith would differ from this in that Justification is a once time, non-repeatable act of God. Sanctification on the other hand is the progressive, ongoing work of God's grace.
The primary argument against this view is that it takes your eyes of Christ and turns it inward.
What I mean by that is that if justification is a single, one time event, then what happens if someone who is a devout Christian falls away? Does this mean they never really had faith? What if someone believes, falls away, and comes back? Did they not have faith the first time? What if you have a brand new mountain top experience and your faith is never stronger? Did you just have your moment of justification?
You can be left wondering the whole time if your faith is real or not and so you have to look inward to figure that out.
That's why for Luther, and the Lutherans, we find our sustaining faith in the Sacraments. When I'm in doubt, I remember my baptism. When I feel weak, I cling to the body and blood of Jesus for strength.
Outward vs Inward.
B/c that's how babies get born.Quo Vadis? said:If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.NoahAg said:Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.Thaddeus73 said:
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..
Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.
One of the things I cherish the most about the reformed tradition is that it is built entirely on the works of God and entirely apart from anything I do inwardly.
NoahAg said:B/c that's how babies get born.Quo Vadis? said:If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.NoahAg said:Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.Thaddeus73 said:
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..
Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.
You certainly can. If someone if telling you that you have to go through the Virgin Mary please let me know and I will set them straight. My question is; why wouldn't you want her praying for you?
By this logic you should never ask anyone to pray for you.
Further, it's a both/and for us... not either/or.Quo Vadis? said:NoahAg said:B/c that's how babies get born.Quo Vadis? said:If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.NoahAg said:Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.Thaddeus73 said:
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..
Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.
You certainly can. If someone if telling you that you have to go through the Virgin Mary please let me know and I will set them straight. My question is; why wouldn't you want her praying for you?
An imperfect analogy:
- Prayer is like current through resistors
- My prayer is connecting me ground to the source (God). It's 1 kOhm resistor.
- I place in parallel Our Lady's prayers (by asking)... it's 1 Ohm resistor. (It's lower since She is more righteous than me. And we know the prayer of the righteous availeth much, and in this case more current).
- Still directly connected to the Almighty... but the equivalent resistance is now less. Parallel paths.
Anyway, I'm sorry for the ELEN201 lesson. But really I'm not.
Quo Vadis? said:NoahAg said:B/c that's how babies get born.Quo Vadis? said:If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.NoahAg said:Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.Thaddeus73 said:
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..
Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.
You certainly can. If someone if telling you that you have to go through the Virgin Mary please let me know and I will set them straight. My question is; why wouldn't you want her praying for you?
Quote:
However, our Confession affirms only this much, that Scripture does not teach us to call upon the saints or to ask the saints for help. Because neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example from Scripture about invoking saints can be brought forward, it follows that the conscience can find no certainty about such invocation.
Robert Kolb, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand, The Book of Concord: The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2000), 238.
10andBOUNCE said:
One of the things I cherish the most about the reformed tradition is that it is built entirely on the works of God and entirely apart from anything I do inwardly.
That's the challenge though. Is that true?
If justification is a single instance, how do you know you're currently justified or if you aren't and will not persevere and fall away?
But that raises a question doesn't it, why are the saints in heaven praying for people in revelation? The prayers that are rising like incense to the throne of heaven?
Also, Job 5:1 seems a pretty direct reference that asking for angelic/saintly intercession is commonplace.
Also, Job 5:1 seems a pretty direct reference that asking for angelic/saintly intercession is commonplace.
747Ag said:Further, it's a both/and for us... not either/or.Quo Vadis? said:NoahAg said:B/c that's how babies get born.Quo Vadis? said:If Mary wasn't necessary why was chosen to be the medium through which God entered the world? Jesus could have directly manifested himself on Earth, yet God always chooses to involve creation in his divine will.NoahAg said:Or you could go directly to Him, like He said. A middle(wo)man isn't necessary.Thaddeus73 said:
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is the fastest and best way to Jesus..
Yes, a woman gave birth to the God-Man Jesus. Nowhere is the scriptures does it say we have to go through her to get to God. Everywhere in the scriptures it's made clear we can go straight to Him.
You certainly can. If someone if telling you that you have to go through the Virgin Mary please let me know and I will set them straight. My question is; why wouldn't you want her praying for you?
An imperfect analogy:
- Prayer is like current through resistors
- My prayer is connecting me ground to the source (God). It's 1 kOhm resistor.
- I place in parallel Our Lady's prayers (by asking)... it's 1 Ohm resistor. (It's lower since She is more righteous than me. And we know the prayer of the righteous availeth much, and in this case more current).
- Still directly connected to the Almighty... but the equivalent resistance is now less. Parallel paths.
Anyway, I'm sorry for the ELEN201 lesson. But really I'm not.
I guess I don't understand what seeking Mary's intercession on your behalf is better than Jesus' Roman's 8:34 teaches Jesus is interceding on our behalf.
Is His intercession lacking? Ineffectual? Incomplete?
What does Mary's intercession add?
Is His intercession lacking? Ineffectual? Incomplete?
What does Mary's intercession add?
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