Robert Morris stepping down

5,896 Views | 69 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by WhataMaroon88
Jabin
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In just googling around to try to learn more about the EO church, I discovered this Dallas church's website:

Daughters of Penelope/Maids of Athena | Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church (holytrinitydallas.org)

Maids of Athena? Really? Athena was a pagan goddess. Why are the mixing that into Christianity?

Also, the page states that "The objectives of the Daughters of Penelope are to promote Hellenism . . . ." Why should a Christian church be promoting any nation or national society? Isn't one of the great faults of the church throughout history been to intermingle secular culture with our faith?
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

Let me correct, or perhaps qualify, something you said:

Quote:

In Protestant churches I've been involved in they are sort of family affairs a good bit of the time. No qualifications at all to start the church. Hiring friends and again people with no actual qualifications.
Although that's true in some and perhaps many Protestant churches, it's definitely not true of all.

And a question for you - does every employee of an EO church have to have qualifications? Are all employees priests? For example, would an EO church have a college ministry, men's ministry, or women's ministry? If so, who would lead that? If the church were big enough, could that person be a paid employee? If so, what qualifications would that person have to have?

What about other paid positions such as secretary, maintenance, yard work, etc. Do they have to have qualifications? If so, what?




I am well aware that with the incredible division and multiple theologies and beliefs of the protestant churches that absolutely nothing can be applied to all of them.

Half of the founders of Protestantism all thought each other were egregiously heretical and going to hell.

The staff is small and hired. Some are purely volunteers. The CONDITIONS, as it is not a privately owned company/church do not exist to cover up unwanted behavior.

We don't do mega churches that people can sort of get lost in. Current model is for more smaller Churches in more communities.

I would tend to believe this lends itself to more oversight of employees and volunteers.

We also don't quite do massive programs for kids like Protestants do. Not as many opportunities for kids to be alone with members of church unattended. Families tend to be involved during these times. I honestly can't think of any scenario in my own church where children are with clergy or employees without many family members being involved as well.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

In just googling around to try to learn more about the EO church, I discovered this Dallas church's website:

Daughters of Penelope/Maids of Athena | Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church (holytrinitydallas.org)

Maids of Athena? Really? Athena was a pagan goddess. Why are the mixing that into Christianity?

Also, the page states that "The objectives of the Daughters of Penelope are to promote Hellenism . . . ." Why should a Christian church be promoting any nation or national society? Isn't one of the great faults of the church throughout history been to intermingle secular culture with our faith?


It's a name. Just because it sounds all mysical and foreign to you that doesn't mean it is what you WANT it to be.

It's an NON CHIRCH organization using Greek tradition to spread Hellenism (the thing that most influences the majority of the western world). I'm sorry if traditional Greek symbols are a bother to you.

They aren't teaching paganism.

I would think you would know that with any level of education on the topic (since you decided to share an opinion ) because even the basic knowledge of the rituals and ceremony is lost. It's impossible to promote paganism as we don't even fully understand the core beliefs any more. There are a few hundred registered pagans in the world who go out and dance with flowers and act like weirdos. They admit they know nothing.

Surely you aren't involved in Easter (Ester) with the whole pagan renewal of Spring and the Easter bunny(rapid renewal and reproduction and fertility) with its animalistic paganism?
Jabin
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You do know that the vast majority of Protestants attend churches that are not mega churches, correct?

And it's naive to think that church history and structure will prevent or reduce human sinfulness. A close friend of my parents was born and raised in the Greek EO church (in Turkey, of all places), left it because of the rampant corruption, and became not only a Protestant but spent his entire adult life in ministry. He was one of the deepest, most spiritual, Godly men I've ever been privileged to know.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

You do know that the vast majority of Protestants attend churches that are not mega churches, correct?

And it's naive to think that church history and structure will prevent or reduce human sinfulness. A close friend of my parents was born and raised in the Greek EO church (in Turkey, of all places), left it because of the rampant corruption, and became not only a Protestant but spent his entire adult life in ministry. He was one of the deepest, most spiritual, Godly men I've ever been privileged to know.


Worst example ever. You were talking about one of the Rum (that's what he would have referred to himself as) in turkey. One of the most persecuted Christian groups on the planet with a little to no control over their destiny because they are part of a Muslim society.

There is a reason that the majority of them left to go to Greece

That's right the majority of them went to Greece.

Just because you know, some guy who claims to have been from some thing from somewhere, doesn't make him a good example of what's actually occurring. It's one dude.

I also give a lot of props to the 1200 Christians that are still in Istanbul, who continue to practice the faith despite the obvious danger and persecution.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

You do know that the vast majority of Protestants attend churches that are not mega churches, correct?

And it's naive to think that church history and structure will prevent or reduce human sinfulness. A close friend of my parents was born and raised in the Greek EO church (in Turkey, of all places), left it because of the rampant corruption, and became not only a Protestant but spent his entire adult life in ministry. He was one of the deepest, most spiritual, Godly men I've ever been privileged to know.


I would like to be able to categorize you guys nice and neatly like Orthodox or Roman Catholics

We just all have to lump it into one because I don't have time to list out 5700 different sects and your different beliefs.

I grew up Baptist. I tried Non Denomination Mega Church Christian High Five Centers with the props and bands and the crazy marketing and money. I tried to find something better in the Presbyterian church looking for something more traditional.

There was something missing in all of them.

I am passionately opposed to the Protestant churches due to the damage it has done to the Christian faith. It has fractured the church and cause division to multiply 1000 times since its inception.

An inception born during its isolation from the actual Christian lands and access to its traditions and many of its writings and knowledge.

It's a backwards, bitter and ugly child born of a backward, ugly and medieval society.

I believe splitting the churches to be Satans most successful act.

NOT TO SAY THERE AREN'T LEGITIMATE AND GODLY PEOPLE FOUND EVERYWHERE. Simply that the division is the worst thing humans have done to the Body of Christ.

Gotta run. Have a good day.
Jabin
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Well, tell us how you really feel!

In truth, I am sad for you and all the hate you seem to hold tight in your heart. If your attitudes and perspective are typical of the EO, I am not sure that I would want to have anything to do with it.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

Well, tell us how you really feel!

In truth, I am sad for you and all the hate you seem to hold tight in your heart. If your attitudes and perspective are typical of the EO, I am not sure that I would want to have anything to do with it.


Take it how you like. No hate.

I'm also fairly certain based upon your comment on "EO hate" that your experience with the EO is near zero.

You shouldn't interpret hate when some one just disagrees with you. That's a condition of the current uber sensitive and soft American progressive mind set we have all been taught.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I hate you. It's like when some one starts calling racism just because someone questions an aspect of your culture and it hurt your feelings.

I love and hope the best for you. We disagree.

You're a Protest-ant. Disagreement and division is what you do and you should learn to be ok with that.

You created the disagreement. It didn't exist before you guys came up with it.




Jabin
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Quote:

I'm also fairly certain based upon your comment on "EO hate" that your experience with the EO is near zero.
Wrong.

You do a lot of assuming that seems to be consistently wrong, lol.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

Quote:

I'm also fairly certain based upon your comment on "EO hate" that your experience with the EO is near zero.
Wrong.

You do a lot of assuming that seems to be consistently wrong, lol.


Simplistic one line comments that add absolutely no intelligent discourse to the conversation is tiresome.

Do better.

Have a good day.
Zobel
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Quote:

And a question for you - does every employee of an EO church have to have qualifications? Are all employees priests? For example, would an EO church have a college ministry, men's ministry, or women's ministry? If so, who would lead that? If the church were big enough, could that person be a paid employee? If so, what qualifications would that person have to have?
I can speak to this. I do think it is kind of interesting because of the underlying presuppositions in the question, that is to say, the idea that churches should have employees with a company as a parallel.

As a result of our legal environment, churches are typically corporations, but the articles of incorporation / certificate of formation / bylaws are almost self-denying documents. The first thing ours does is say that while we have legal authority to function as a nonprofit pursuant to the local laws, we have authority to exist only by virtue of our relationship with the Archdiocese. It sort of reminds me of the Three Holy Youths reply -- "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter."

Following that concept most churches have no employees at all other than the parish priest, this is only because the IRS has more or less decided that parish priests must be classified that way and will penalize you if they are not. But this is where it ends. A priest is not employed by the church, he doesn't work for the parish, he is not authorized by the parish, and the parish gives him no authority whatever. The parish can't invest the priest in the authority to do his job at all.

Other clergy are compensated legally as contractors, and receive a small stipend - but they also have full time lay professions. Even some senior priests are not employees and have another job.

In my archdiocese priests and deacons (i.e., all clergy) are required to have at minimum a masters in divinity. This functions something like a military contract - if the archdiocese pays, you're "on contract" and you go where you're needed. If you pay (or your parish pays) for seminary you are probably going to be able to remain where you are.

The volunteers in most parishes consist of the choir director, church (Sunday) school director, and youth director. But these are almost never full time jobs, and compensation is in my experience nominal (say... a few thousand dollars a year). And, just as above, the parish itself has no authority to empower them to do their jobs. They must receive a blessing from the priest to work, and ultimately from the bishop himself for the program to exist. There is no formal requirement that I know of for their training or requirements. But they're not employees.
Zobel
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Quote:

And it's naive to think that church history and structure will prevent or reduce human sinfulness
completely disagree with this... kind of like an argument against financial controls.

on the one hand, technically true that human sinfulness is part of the human condition.

on the other hand, of course structures and policies can promote or discourage the expression of those temptations and mitigate the risk of occurrence and impact.

It seems to me CrackerJackAg's point is that the hierarchical structure, requirements, traditional practices, and of course the canons themselves severely restrict the expression of greed in the priesthood, which is itself a winnowing out of potential bad actors.
Jabin
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Thanks for the explanation about how your EO church and Parrish work.

I thought that Crackerjack's point was more about how the EO church tends to prevent sexual sin, not so much greed.

And to keep it real, let's not lose sight that the vast, overwhelming majority of Protestant pastors are paid de minimus wages.
CrackerJackAg
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I believe the Church structure reduces both. I believe power, money and position attracts the type of person that allows for more opportunity for that type of person to gratify his sexual urges unchecked.

A respected pastor with a trusting congregation, unchecked power and full control over money and staff loyalty in a random non denominational religious order is likely to be able to operate with near impunity and protection.

CrackerJackAg
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I think that you would agree that conditions and structure do matter.

Do you believe there is less likely to be abuse in the traditional Presbyterian church with accountability to congregation and traditional values with married pastors over the Presbyterian church that allows trans preachers and eschews traditional values?

No difference?

Jabin
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CrackerJackAg said:

I think that you would agree that conditions and structure do matter.

Do you believe there is less likely to be abuse in the traditional Presbyterian church with accountability to congregation and traditional values with married pastors over the Presbyterian church that allows trans preachers and eschews traditional values?

No difference?


I'm reluctant to make assumptions or state my "beliefs" without seeing hard data. When I do see the hard data on many issues, I'm constantly surprised because it frequently contradicts my assumptions and beliefs. I'm not a Presbyterian, but I am aware of many sexual issues within conservative Presbyterian churches.

To make my point once again, you have beliefs that appear to be free floating and without any facts or data to support them, i.e., that the EO church is somehow less susceptible to sexual abuse than all Protestant churches (whether they be large or small, evangelical or reformed, etc.). I don't buy that and your constant assertions of what you "believe" or "feel" are unpersuasive.

My experiences with the EO church have adequately demonstrated to me that it is subject to all of the same failings, mistakes, and errors as all other churches.

As the Catholic church has shown us, structure and control of doctrine is no protection against gross evil.
CrackerJackAg
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I agree that research is very important.

I've lived a Protestant existence for 30+ years.

I was surprised and shocked with what I found when I did my research I've since educated myself on my Church and faith. I did the research and I feel very good about The Orthodox Church.
Ag CPA
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AG
White Chapel's membership is about to explode, anecdotally here in Southlake nobody connected to Gateway is happy how things are being handled.
Zobel
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Quote:

My experiences with the EO church have adequately demonstrated to me that it is subject to all of the same failings, mistakes, and errors as all other churches.
That's not the point being examined.

The question is that given the fact that all collections of humans will be subject to the same failings, mistakes, and errors, will some structures reduce the probability for these and reduce their impact. And the obvious answer is YES.

A stereotypical cult with a single leader with unlimited authority is ALWAYS going to result in worse outcomes than any structure that checks a single person's power.

The answer to how to do reduce the probability and impact is along the same line as the principles of financial controls - segregation of duties or limitations of authority and control, auditing or reviewing of activities, and reducing opportunity or incentive and ease for people to do bad things.

Quote:

As the Catholic church has shown us, structure and control of doctrine is no protection against gross evil.
I think we can get the opposite lesson. Lack of limits of authority, lack of transparency and accountability, and increasing incentive for people to do bad things results in bad outcomes.
PabloSerna
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My first brush with the Orthodox church was not so good. I was the project architect for the new Blanco HS back in the late '90s and found this chapel nearby (LINK) where they claimed they had an icon that wept tears of myrrh. As someone who loves Our Lady very much, I made it a point to visit often and even bought a few things from their store. I attended at least one mass that I recall, women stood on one side and men on the other.

After the project was built, I was sad to learn that it was all a ruse and worse, there were also some serious sex scandals (LINK). I have a son-in-law that is a bailiff with Travis County and he told me something that I believe makes the most sense- that many crimes were committed because of convenience.

I read somewhere that Billy Graham had a rule of not spending time alone with women who were not married. Kind of like the Pope's recent, although crude, acknowledgement that same sex attracted men should not consider living with other same sex attracted men.

Jabin
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Quote:

I read somewhere that Billy Graham had a rule of not spending time alone with women who were not married. Kind of like the Pope's recent, although crude, acknowledgement that same sex attracted men should not consider living with other same sex attracted men.
The BG Association also had a rule that their male employees, when traveling, had to share a room. That rule was designed to reduce the opportunities for watching porn on hotel TVs.

For a Protestant organization, it's surprising how few scandals (none?) ever arose concerning the BG Association or its employees.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
I feel like that kind of makes the point.

You are pointing to a singular person and organization while I am pointing to the structure of an entire Church.

You are rolling the dice hoping you get BG. Most likely you won't.

BG may have had outstanding leadership and safeguards in place. I don't know anymore about what was happening in his organization than I do the Catholic Church during the pre dawn of the information era.

Edit to say: BG seemed like a very decent person. Absolutely not a knock on his organization.
Jabin
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Yawn. Your only evidence that the EO is somehow superior in preventing sexual sin and predators among its clergy is your feelings.
CrackerJackAg
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Jabin said:

Yawn. Your only evidence that the EO is somehow superior in preventing sexual sin and predators among its clergy is your feelings.


You're clearly obtuse.
Zobel
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AG
Well that's not very nice
WhataMaroon88
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txwxman said:

M gf and I went to Gateway Frisco last year. Morris talked about his theory of Mammon and how he could clean my money if I simply gave him 10%. I told her he was a huckster and we'd try another church. I showed her the news last night, she reminded me of my misgivings about him, and she thanked me accordingly.


This is besides the point, but you are severely misconstruing his teachings on tithing and the spirit of mammon. Tithing is important. Regardless, this entire thing is very sad and I was also glad that I didn't get tied up with the P&W team at Gateway back in 2005.

- fellow Tx weatherman
CrackerJackAg
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WhataMaroon88 said:

txwxman said:

M gf and I went to Gateway Frisco last year. Morris talked about his theory of Mammon and how he could clean my money if I simply gave him 10%. I told her he was a huckster and we'd try another church. I showed her the news last night, she reminded me of my misgivings about him, and she thanked me accordingly.


This is besides the point, but you are severely misconstruing his teachings on tithing and the spirit of mammon. Tithing is important. Regardless, this entire thing is very sad and I was also glad that I didn't get tied up with the P&W team at Gateway back in 2005.

- fellow Tx weatherman



How much do you have to misconstrue it to make it ok?

I'm intrigued now. How was it misconstrued.

I don't think giving 10% to a private company is a requirement.
Jabin
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Quotes solely from you after I asked for hard evidence/data to support your argument that sexual abuse is significantly less an issue in the EO vs. the RC or Protestant churches:

Quote:

I just don't believe we have a flaw in this particular area.
Quote:

You can do your own research if you want though.

The reason I listed are good enough for me.
Quote:

I would tend to believe . . . .
Quote:

I believe the Church structure reduces both. I believe power, money and position attracts the type of person that allows for more opportunity for that type of person to gratify his sexual urges unchecked.
Quote:

I did the research and I feel very good about The Orthodox Church.
Not a shred of evidence. Only your beliefs and feelings.
fc2112
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I saw a study once that suggested the rate of sexual crimes with minors between clergy and the general male population was similar.

Clergy just gets a lot more attention - and Catholic priests get the most attention of all.

Sorry, can't find that now.

And anyone who suggests THEIR blessed denomination is exempt from this is fooling themselves. Except for Mormons, who believe sex with minors isn't a sin at all.
Jabin
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Quote:

And anyone who suggests THEIR blessed denomination is exempt from this is fooling themselves
CrackerJackAg
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AG
Again, you are being obtuse as I was specifically calling out structure and conditions.

I'm starting to think you are protesting too much.

WhataMaroon88
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CrackerJackAg said:

WhataMaroon88 said:

txwxman said:

M gf and I went to Gateway Frisco last year. Morris talked about his theory of Mammon and how he could clean my money if I simply gave him 10%. I told her he was a huckster and we'd try another church. I showed her the news last night, she reminded me of my misgivings about him, and she thanked me accordingly.


This is besides the point, but you are severely misconstruing his teachings on tithing and the spirit of mammon. Tithing is important. Regardless, this entire thing is very sad and I was also glad that I didn't get tied up with the P&W team at Gateway back in 2005.

- fellow Tx weatherman



How much do you have to misconstrue it to make it ok?

I'm intrigued now. How was it misconstrued.

I don't think giving 10% to a private company is a requirement.


Because the guy has entire books out about the topic. He's talked about it for decades. You can't take one line a guy says on a Sunday and say he will "clean my money if I give 10%". That's not accurate or fair.

Besides, he straight up said if you don't wanna give then don't give because it's a heart thing. What's the point in giving if you think it's not worth it. Then we are just doing it out of what we think is the law essentially.
WhataMaroon88
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AG
double post.
wcb
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All I know is that if a man after God's own heart can fall, any man can fall.

Our enemy is crazy good at what he does.
WhataMaroon88
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wcb said:

All I know is that if a man after God's own heart can fall, any man can fall.

Our enemy is crazy good at what he does.


You got that right. Idle hands are the devil's workshop
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