kurt vonnegut said:

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The Banned said:

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For example: Christians just have to stop caring about sin and helping people out of their sin is tantamount to saying Christians need to give up their faith.

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Some people do not want help out of what you consider to be 'sin'. Unless 'helping people out of their sin' includes violence or harassment, at some point, you have to let it go, right? Like I told 10andbounce - at what point do you let people make their own choices and accept their own consequences?

Again, I still think there are similarities between the language above and what is complained about from the left. There is a recurring complaint (maybe not from you) about the left's requirements that Christians accept homosexuality as normal. Its as those they have a worldview and not prostelytizing that worldview to you is to abandon that worldview. . . . samsies.

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My first mission on this thread was to show both sides do it. Glad we can agree.

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Overall, especially for me, I just don't get it. Like, what is the purpose of ensuring the rest of the population knows that you are either sexually attracted to the same sex or that in you in your all powerful personal autonomy have chosen to defy basic biology and chose a new gender?

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Practically speaking, a gay person is constantly making judgments about whether and who to tell. Here's a practical example - my mother in law is staying with us because she just had knee surgery, and we're taking care of her. Later this week, my husband has something he has to go to for work that'll take all day, so I'm on duty. Normally I go to the office those days. If I were new at the job, I'd have to weigh whether to tell my boss why I need to work from home, because "mother-in-law" implies a "wife" that I don't have. Straight people would just say "my wife's mom is staying with us and I have to stay home to help her."

I can't speak to the gender issue as much, but usually being gay is going to come up eventually unless you live a very secret life. Before I came out, people were speculating because I was never really dating women, so even when I tried desperately not to make an issue of it, it was anyway. When you do start dating or are in a relationship, people ask about your significant other. Basically, I think it's important to differentiate the internet from how people actually live.

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As far as what I see on TV, I am mainly concerned with programming geared towards children. It's just flat out inappropriate for my son to be watching Camp Cretaceous and all the sudden instead of dinosaurs, he is watching two CHILDREN girls kiss and enter into some kind of relationship. Now, my answer to that is obviously to turn it off. And I would advise most parents just turn the damn TV off. That will solve a bunch of your issues.

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That seems reasonable. I don't know the age that show's geared toward, but it seems odd to have any kids of any gender kissing or "dating" or whatever on a show about dinosaurs.

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(When was the last time a gay atheist was watching a movie and felt their values being infringed on by a couple of Christians making a decision to get baptized?)

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Why would I feel my values were infringed upon by that? There are religious people on TV all the time. People celebrate Christmas on TV all the time. No big deal.

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As far as the garbage indoctrination going on in schools, the easy answer is to homeschool or private school your kids. If you are constantly complaining about public schools, I don't know what to tell you. Stop making excuses - you have better options. (Last time I checked, public schools are not teaching Old Testament Theology.)

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Everyone of all political stripe is constantly complaining about schools "indoctrinating" kids to the point that I genuinely don't know if you're talking to Christians who are worried kids are being indoctrinated with LGBT stuff, or liberals who worry the Handmaid's Tale is coming up soon. Either way, I think it's probably best again to remember the internet isn't real life.

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Another recent example was when our family went skiing this winter. Of course the one week we chose, the resort had some overlapping LGBTQ celebrations going on that weekend. As in drag shows going on (for some purpose, but I will never understand that realm). So being the parent, I go ahead and just cut our trip a day short when all this stuff is going on. So instead of just being able to take a vacation to go skiing, I now have to navigate this agenda shoved down my family's throat. (Haven't yet see any "christians" preaching fire and brimstone yet while out skiing.)

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Why is your family more entitled to go to that mountain on a particular day than they were? Were they going around trying to convert you to being gay, or were they just skiing and going to parties that you had no interest in going to? I'm genuinely asking, because this just seems like a long way of saying "I had to see gay people and I didn't care for it."

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So again, I will ask, what is the point of all of this? (not rhetorical -looking some some semblance of a meaningful reason)

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Hanging out with a bunch of people with shared interests and having fun? Does there need to be a more meaningful reason?

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

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Maybe you should leave to a more Christian nation…

It's not like you are in the majority on this issue.

Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

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Maybe you should leave to a more Christian nation…

It's not like you are in the majority on this issue.

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Nah, America is a broadly Christian nation, it's drifting away but that's no call to abandon shift. The tide is starting to turn, attitudes towards homosexuality are reversing and quickly.

🏳️‍🌈"Pride Month" begins tomorrow. But here's what they won't tell you: The LGBT movement is losing—badly.

Let's look at some of the polls.

Just a few years ago, it seemed like the LGBT revolution had won, once and for all. By 2020, even a majority of Republicans supported gay…

— America 2100 (@America_2100) May 31, 2024

Serviam said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

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Maybe you should leave to a more Christian nation…

It's not like you are in the majority on this issue.

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Nah, America is a broadly Christian nation, it's drifting away but that's no call to abandon shift. The tide is starting to turn, attitudes towards homosexuality are reversing and quickly.

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Every single data point says this is false. The tide is turning against you faster than ever, with no end in sight..

But I'm happy for everyone to stay and have a battle of ideals. We are winning that battle after all. The biggest shift is in overall religiosity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Hodges-,2020%E2%80%93present,%2C%20while%2028%25%20opposed%20it.

Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

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Maybe you should leave to a more Christian nation…

It's not like you are in the majority on this issue.

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Nah, America is a broadly Christian nation, it's drifting away but that's no call to abandon shift. The tide is starting to turn, attitudes towards homosexuality are reversing and quickly.

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Every single data point says this is false. The tide is turning against you faster than ever, with no end in sight..

But I'm happy for everyone to stay and have a battle of ideals. We are winning that battle after all. The biggest shift is in overall religiosity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Hodges-,2020%E2%80%93present,%2C%20while%2028%25%20opposed%20it.

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The recent 2022-2023 polls show a major shift, the majority of republicans no longer approve, and support is being lost among major demographic groups. Christians are becoming more devout, and people who were never religious are now actually saying they're not religious. Traditional Catholics are having tons of kids and pooling resources to build more churches and parallel economies. We're going to win.

Thanks for the replies, appreciate the insight. I'll reply back a bit later with some clarification.

Just like you did in Europe right?


Look at the 18-34 demographics. Things get even worse for you after the boomers die.

Like I said, I'm good with a free exchange of idea and not encouraging people to move to other countries who disagree.

Great thing about capitalism: no one is forcing you to watch.

Serviam said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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I feel the same with the USA, the USA is a culturally Christian nation, since the very beginning. Homosexuality should not be "welcomed" or even "tolerated" under such a framework but rather "not persecuted".

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In other words, "know your place."

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Sure. If you want to "live out loud" as a gay man, go do it somewhere where it doesn't conflict with the traditional social norms of the country.

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Maybe you should leave to a more Christian nation…

It's not like you are in the majority on this issue.

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Nah, America is a broadly Christian nation, it's drifting away but that's no call to abandon shift. The tide is starting to turn, attitudes towards homosexuality are reversing and quickly.

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Every single data point says this is false. The tide is turning against you faster than ever, with no end in sight..

But I'm happy for everyone to stay and have a battle of ideals. We are winning that battle after all. The biggest shift is in overall religiosity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Hodges-,2020%E2%80%93present,%2C%20while%2028%25%20opposed%20it.

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The recent 2022-2023 polls show a major shift, the majority of republicans no longer approve, and support is being lost among major demographic groups. Christians are becoming more devout, and people who were never religious are now actually saying they're not religious. Traditional Catholics are having tons of kids and pooling resources to build more churches and parallel economies. We're going to win.

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Uhhhh huh.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/358364/religious-americans.aspx

Serviam said:

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Beer Baron said:

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No thanks. Born and raised in Texas and I'm doing just fine here. And again, "living out loud" mostly consists of such shocking behavior as saying "I'm Beer Baron, and this is my husband ______," or telling the vet "I think my dog is listed under my husband's last name," or, again, telling people at work I'm working from home to help my mother-in-law recover from surgery. It's absolutely scandalous.

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Ok, I didn't expect any different, but don't be shocked if you're uncomfortable from time to time, and stop feigning shock when people whose religion or culture considers your behavior grossly depraved, treat you as a person who acts grossly depraved.

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Ok. Maybe Christians like you should stop feigning shock when your bigotry and intolerance gets called out.

Serviam said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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It's not 1787. Our society is different. Why do we need to follow the rules of a specific variant of a specific religion for all time? Just allowing an interracial couple on television was verboten until 50 years ago or so and the arguments against allowing it often hinged on interpretation of Christianity.

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I don't think it's necessarily a specific variant, the country has a very broad Christian brush culturally speaking. You say "our society is different" I say "our society is in decline". Why does our society need to change? Why don't all the other people who don't want to live in a broadly Christian nation go somewhere they feel more comfortable? Again, imagine me going to the UAE and demanding they conform to my religion; it would be extremely rude and illogical.

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Catholics were feared and hated until the late 19th century. Hell, JFK was trying to explain that he didn't answer to the Pope in 1960. Christianity is in decline as a religious force in this country. Broad traditions based on Christian tradition doesn't make a country Christian. New England still has very participatory town meetings that emerged from the particularities of Puritan beliefs. It doesn't make New England culturally Puritan, it's just one influence amongst many that has stayed around. You aren't granted this country in perpetuity because you have a particular view on its past.

Beer Baron said:

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Overall, especially for me, I just don't get it. Like, what is the purpose of ensuring the rest of the population knows that you are either sexually attracted to the same sex or that in you in your all powerful personal autonomy have chosen to defy basic biology and chose a new gender?

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Practically speaking, a gay person is constantly making judgments about whether and who to tell. Here's a practical example - my mother in law is staying with us because she just had knee surgery, and we're taking care of her. Later this week, my husband has something he has to go to for work that'll take all day, so I'm on duty. Normally I go to the office those days. If I were new at the job, I'd have to weigh whether to tell my boss why I need to work from home, because "mother-in-law" implies a "wife" that I don't have. Straight people would just say "my wife's mom is staying with us and I have to stay home to help her."

I can't speak to the gender issue as much, but usually being gay is going to come up eventually unless you live a very secret life. Before I came out, people were speculating because I was never really dating women, so even when I tried desperately not to make an issue of it, it was anyway. When you do start dating or are in a relationship, people ask about your significant other. Basically, I think it's important to differentiate the internet from how people actually live.

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As far as what I see on TV, I am mainly concerned with programming geared towards children. It's just flat out inappropriate for my son to be watching Camp Cretaceous and all the sudden instead of dinosaurs, he is watching two CHILDREN girls kiss and enter into some kind of relationship. Now, my answer to that is obviously to turn it off. And I would advise most parents just turn the damn TV off. That will solve a bunch of your issues.

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That seems reasonable. I don't know the age that show's geared toward, but it seems odd to have any kids of any gender kissing or "dating" or whatever on a show about dinosaurs.

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(When was the last time a gay atheist was watching a movie and felt their values being infringed on by a couple of Christians making a decision to get baptized?)

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Why would I feel my values were infringed upon by that? There are religious people on TV all the time. People celebrate Christmas on TV all the time. No big deal.

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As far as the garbage indoctrination going on in schools, the easy answer is to homeschool or private school your kids. If you are constantly complaining about public schools, I don't know what to tell you. Stop making excuses - you have better options. (Last time I checked, public schools are not teaching Old Testament Theology.)

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Everyone of all political stripe is constantly complaining about schools "indoctrinating" kids to the point that I genuinely don't know if you're talking to Christians who are worried kids are being indoctrinated with LGBT stuff, or liberals who worry the Handmaid's Tale is coming up soon. Either way, I think it's probably best again to remember the internet isn't real life.

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Another recent example was when our family went skiing this winter. Of course the one week we chose, the resort had some overlapping LGBTQ celebrations going on that weekend. As in drag shows going on (for some purpose, but I will never understand that realm). So being the parent, I go ahead and just cut our trip a day short when all this stuff is going on. So instead of just being able to take a vacation to go skiing, I now have to navigate this agenda shoved down my family's throat. (Haven't yet see any "christians" preaching fire and brimstone yet while out skiing.)

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Why is your family more entitled to go to that mountain on a particular day than they were? Were they going around trying to convert you to being gay, or were they just skiing and going to parties that you had no interest in going to? I'm genuinely asking, because this just seems like a long way of saying "I had to see gay people and I didn't care for it."

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So again, I will ask, what is the point of all of this? (not rhetorical -looking some some semblance of a meaningful reason)

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Hanging out with a bunch of people with shared interests and having fun? Does there need to be a more meaningful reason?

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First, thanks for sharing some personal experiences like that with taking care of your MIL. It is enlightening to hear that, and I do feel for you, despite not agreeing with the situation in general. Unless it's a privately held company, I don't think you should be discriminated against in the workplace.

I think some of school "indoctrination" stuff is overdone as you mentioned, but I also think some is very real and very scary. I think for most, they just want anything around sex ed and these bizarre assignments about gender and love to be stripped out. Stick to the basics. And if Christians want additional learning centered on religion there are obviously options beyond public school to do that. The state should be doing the bare minimum (regarding subjects) when it comes to education.

My example at the ski resort - I am in no way more entitled to shredding that powder more than you. That's not even the point. I'm happy to share a chair lift with you or whatever. The point and question at hand is why it needs to be broadcast out which impacts basically everyone there at that point. I'm not saying that it needs to be some kind of secret, but why the advertisements and dedicated weekend? Go ski with your gay buddies anytime for all I care.

So the end goal is to hangout with people with shared experiences- that's completely fine. Can you not do that any time of the year whenever and wherever you want? It's almost disingenuous then to have this fabricated month and other days that rally your troops. It comes off as just a show and way to antagonize others.

Again, I do appreciate the insight. And I apologize for any ways Christians have misrepresented the Gospel towards you, whether or not you believe it or not.

10andBOUNCE said:

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My example at the ski resort - I am in no way more entitled to shredding that powder more than you. That's not even the point. I'm happy to share a chair lift with you or whatever. The point and question at hand is why it needs to be broadcast out which impacts basically everyone there at that point. I'm not saying that it needs to be some kind of secret, but why the advertisements and dedicated weekend? Go ski with your gay buddies anytime for all I care.

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Would you have been equally upset to arrive at a ski resort and find that a certain number of people had gathered to have a Diwali celebration? Would you be cursing Hindus and telling them to just keep it to themselves?

And for the real test, what if it was a Christian gathering? You know . . . Gays aren't the only ones that get together in public to celebrate an idea? What am I supposed to tell my kids when they see Christians loud and proud and worshipping God? They are only children for crying out loud!!! How can I, as a responsible parent, expose children to the idea that not everyone thinks exactly like 'us'?

Read that last paragraph as tongue in cheek, but the point it makes is very real.

So - is it okay for all groups of people, like Christians, to gather and celebrate something? Or should all groups of people be pressured against public self expression? Or are there different rules for different people?

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First, thanks for sharing some personal experiences like that with taking care of your MIL. It is enlightening to hear that, and I do feel for you, despite not agreeing with the situation in general. Unless it's a privately held company, I don't think you should be discriminated against in the workplace.

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Thanks for that. Luckily workplace discrimination has never been an issue for me personally, but it is definitely something I weigh anytime I start a new job.

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I think some of school "indoctrination" stuff is overdone as you mentioned, but I also think some is very real and very scary. I think for most, they just want anything around sex ed and these bizarre assignments about gender and love to be stripped out. Stick to the basics. And if Christians want additional learning centered on religion there are obviously options beyond public school to do that. The state should be doing the bare minimum (regarding subjects) when it comes to education.

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I don't really disagree with any of this. It gets trickier when topics like different types of families comes up because, say, one of the kids has gay parents or something. Then when you start getting into junior high and high school you have kids figuring things out about themselves.

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My example at the ski resort - I am in no way more entitled to shredding that powder more than you. That's not even the point. I'm happy to share a chair lift with you or whatever. The point and question at hand is why it needs to be broadcast out which impacts basically everyone there at that point. I'm not saying that it needs to be some kind of secret, but why the advertisements and dedicated weekend? Go ski with your gay buddies anytime for all I care.

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It legit sounds like the resort was just hosting an event for a certain group, which they likely do for lots of different groups. There used to be a big country music festival thing at one of the ski resorts a few years ago. When I was a kid there was a weekend where lots of church youth groups went to Six Flags at the same time. If those aren't your things, you might be disappointed to be there at the same time they're going on, but that's just something that happens sometimes. And with events like that, comes advertising for the event.

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So the end goal is to hangout with people with shared experiences- that's completely fine. Can you not do that any time of the year whenever and wherever you want? It's almost disingenuous then to have this fabricated month and other days that rally your troops. It comes off as just a show and way to antagonize others.

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Yes, we can do that any time of year whenever and wherever we want, and it looks like this group chose that mountain and that weekend. As for the pride month thing, it really isn't about or for you. No one is making you participate, but yes, you might have to see some ads or know certain events are happening. I'm not a Christian but I see Christmas ads and decorations starting around Halloween. Not everything is geared toward everyone and that's ok. Also, anyone who wants to come is welcome. The parade in Austin probably has more straight people in it than actual gay people. It's kind of such a known thing now it inspired this awesome Onion headline: https://www.theonion.com/everyone-in-pride-parade-straight-1826671096

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Again, I do appreciate the insight. And I apologize for any ways Christians have misrepresented the Gospel towards you, whether or not you believe it or not.

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Genuinely appreciate that. Also very much appreciate Christians who call other Christians out for it when they see it.

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So - is it okay for all groups of people, like Christians, to gather and celebrate something? Or should all groups of people be pressured against public self expression? Or are there different rules for different people?

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This is what I don't get. If I showed up somewhere and there were ads for worship services everywhere and concerts where everyone was holding up the Jesus spirit fingers and closing their eyes while singing religious-sounding songs, I'd just think "ok, that's clearly not for me" and go about my vacation. I may send some snarky texts or make some comments to my friends, but I'd just go about my vacation and do the things I do like doing. I definitely wouldn't cut my trip short and be upset it was happening.

Beer Baron said:

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So - is it okay for all groups of people, like Christians, to gather and celebrate something? Or should all groups of people be pressured against public self expression? Or are there different rules for different people?

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This is what I don't get. If I showed up somewhere and there were ads for worship services everywhere and concerts where everyone was holding up the Jesus spirit fingers and closing their eyes while singing religious-sounding songs, I'd just think "ok, that's clearly not for me" and go about my vacation. I may send some snarky texts or make some comments to my friends, but I'd just go about my vacation and do the things I do like doing. I definitely wouldn't cut my trip short and be upset it was happening.

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I think there is a big difference between going about your business because of a religious service versus me needing to be aware of when a drag show may be happening at a bar after we have dinner in town. One of those things is for adults only. Big difference between drag and church.

And even though there hasn't been specific mention of drag included in this thread (I think) it has been adopted into the alphabet soup that we have today. 30 years ago, the message was to let the homosexual community have its rights and freedoms and live in peace. Now its obviously evolved into something much different. 30 years from today I would not be surprised at all if we were trying to support pedophilia in the guise of minor attracted persons. It was and still is quite a slippery slope.

It is quite the challenge to have a high functioning society when lots of different people groups are following different moral codes -and not just slight differences but significant differences.