And to be fair, from the Catholic perspective, the Church really discourages them anyways. Not that they can't happen, nor should they never happen, but there is no doubt it can be very hard on the marriage and children.
Would you date a Catholic?
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Last: 4 mo ago by dermdoc
I hate the fact that so many people consider Protestant and Catholics as "not on the same side" imo we are talking about two factions who love Jesus Christ and consider Him God in the flesh. Both are Christian.
On the other hand, I am a Protestant, and I attended small group every week with my Catholic neighbor with the intention of learning more about being more Christ-like in my parenting and in my marriage. It evolved into more why Catholicism is better than other religions so I stopped going.
Wish we could agree we are all on the same side, especially when we are facing the evil of violent Islam.
On the other hand, I am a Protestant, and I attended small group every week with my Catholic neighbor with the intention of learning more about being more Christ-like in my parenting and in my marriage. It evolved into more why Catholicism is better than other religions so I stopped going.
Wish we could agree we are all on the same side, especially when we are facing the evil of violent Islam.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I promise its a grave sin in the catholic church.Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
"Really Christian" here and I married a Catholic nine years ago. Best decision I've made… next to choosing to be "Really Christian".
Hmm....We didn't have that experience whatsoever. In fact before we were married I met with my former baptist minister and then the Catholic priest. Both told us verbatim the exact thing we should do when considering our marriage....read our bible and pray. I became Catholic after about 8 years of discerning and was always welcomed by the Church and even encouraged by my former youth minister. To me, that was God speaking to us in more than one way.The BQ Jock said:
And to be fair, from the Catholic perspective, the Church really discourages them anyways. Not that they can't happen, nor should they never happen, but there is no doubt it can be very hard on the marriage and children.
My caveat, however, is that we were both focused on the Lord and kept and open mind. We didn't draw a line in the sand and say 'I am stuck in my interpretation of my Christian faith and not open to what the Lord may be showing me'. When you are close minded, it will be difficult....but likely will all other things not related to faith.
Howdy Dammit said:Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
Yeah I'm wondering that as well
Captain Pablo said:Howdy Dammit said:Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
Yeah I'm wondering that as well
Likely interactions with Catholics here, on F16, and elsewhere given he's not a formal Catholic and not terribly into orthodox Catholicism.
747Ag said:Captain Pablo said:Howdy Dammit said:Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
Yeah I'm wondering that as well
Likely interactions with Catholics here, on F16, and elsewhere given he's not a formal Catholic and not terribly into orthodox Catholicism.
But what does that have to do with a cheating wife who happens to be Catholic? What does Catholicism have to do with cheating? How is Catholicism responsible?
Ah yes, nothing. I was answering the other question about him no longer entertaining the idea of dating a Catholic. Bad reading comprehension. My bad.Captain Pablo said:747Ag said:Captain Pablo said:Howdy Dammit said:Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
Yeah I'm wondering that as well
Likely interactions with Catholics here, on F16, and elsewhere given he's not a formal Catholic and not terribly into orthodox Catholicism.
But what does that have to do with a cheating wife who happens to be Catholic? What does Catholicism have to do with cheating? How is Catholicism responsible?
This Protestant married a Catholic 37 years ago. Three kids and three grandchildren later and we're all doing just fine.
BluHorseShu said:Hmm....We didn't have that experience whatsoever. In fact before we were married I met with my former baptist minister and then the Catholic priest. Both told us verbatim the exact thing we should do when considering our marriage....read our bible and pray. I became Catholic after about 8 years of discerning and was always welcomed by the Church and even encouraged by my former youth minister. To me, that was God speaking to us in more than one way.The BQ Jock said:
And to be fair, from the Catholic perspective, the Church really discourages them anyways. Not that they can't happen, nor should they never happen, but there is no doubt it can be very hard on the marriage and children.
My caveat, however, is that we were both focused on the Lord and kept and open mind. We didn't draw a line in the sand and say 'I am stuck in my interpretation of my Christian faith and not open to what the Lord may be showing me'. When you are close minded, it will be difficult....but likely will all other things not related to faith.
I am very happy to hear of both the success of your marriage and your coming into the Church! My mother was baptist when she married my dad (Catholic). She, too, converted several years after they had been married. I did not mean to insinuate it was ALWAYS a bad thing, just that it CAN and unfortunately often DOES put strain on the relationship, especially in regards to raising children, but also could pose a risk to the faith of the Catholic party.
The following is from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith:
"Guided by the same concern, all the sacred Pastors should have the same desire to teach the faithful about the importance and the excellence of this sacrament, and to admonish them about the dangers inherent in the marriage of a Catholic with a non-Catholic Christian and even more so in the marriage with a non-Christian. They should strive with all appropriate means to lead the young to contract marriage with a Catholic party.
It cannot be denied, however, that the characteristic conditions of our time, which have quickly caused radical transformations in social and family life, make the observance of the canonical discipline regarding mixed marriage even more difficult than in the past.
Indeed, in the present circumstances, the relations between Catholics and non-Catholics are much more frequent… leading to more frequent occasions of mixed marriage as experience has shown.
Therefore, the pastoral concern of the Church today demands more than ever that the holiness of marriage be safeguarded in conformity with Catholic doctrine and that the faith of the Catholic spouse and the Catholic education of the offspring be guaranteed, even in mixed marriages… Such pastoral care is even more necessary because… there are many opinions held by non-Catholics that are at odds with Catholic doctrine about the essential qualities and properties of marriage, in particular regarding indissolubility, and consequently divorce and a subsequent marriage after civil divorce. Thus, the Church recognizes its duty to forewarn the faithful not to run the risk of endangering their faith, either spiritually or materially. The Church therefore take every precaution to instruct those who intend to contract marriage regarding its nature, its properties, the obligations inherent in marriage itself, and the dangers to avoid."
Here is a link to the entire document if you would like to read the rest!
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19660318_istr-matrimoni-misti_en.html
God bless you, my friend!
Says all christians are the same.BrazosDog02 said:
I wouldn't marry an atheist. But otherwise, all Christians are the same to me. You have to be on the same page. I'm Methodist and married a Catholic, we lived together for a few years, we got married outside the church, and I have never had intentions to convert. The kids are confirmed Catholics and now none of us go to church at all.
But, we are all on the same page about religion and life so it works.
Marrying a hard core Catholic would be a miserable experience for me, we'd have very little in the way of beliefs, and neither would compliment the other, so I think in the OP, the two people are just not compatible. I wouldn't get bent out of shape over it. A life of mismatch is not the way to go.
Doesn't go to church, pats himself on the back for nobody in his family going to church.
Says hard core (which sounds like someone who attends church) catholics would be bad.
Hate to break it to you bud, but you're not a Christian and your kids are even more unmoored.
I definitely would not date a Catholic.
My wife would get really mad.
My wife would get really mad.
I've been "non-denominational" all my life of 42 years and have been to Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, charismatic and Catholic churches, from small house churches to mega-churches. Currently I'm part of the local Vineyard church congregation.
I've data women with all sorts of backgrounds, including multiple Catholics.
I'll be marrying my Catholic fiancee in three months, and although we're having a Catholic wedding at the church she grew up in, it won't be a full mass with communion.
Her first visit to a non-Catholic church was after 6mo of dating me. Her response? "Hey yall believe the same stuff as us!"
We aren't trying to convert each other, just sharing our walk with Christ together, praying together, praising and worshiping God together, and seeking to humbly learn and celebrate our unique expressions of faith.
We are taking premarital counseling in the Catholic church and at Vineyard, NFP class (which we both don't agree with the restrictions on condoms and pulling out).
Us dating each other has helped us grow greatly in our faith together, celebrating what we have in common and considering the things we hold dear that are different. She loves the working of the Holy Spirit and personal prayer at Vineyard, and the focus on community group at non-denominational churches. So much that she started a young professionals bible study with her priest! It was really fun.
There are things I am adamantly against that the Catholic church takes part in, so I won't take part in those things. She keeps that in mind and is also reconsidering some things. But there are some things the Catholic church does better IMHO, and I celebrate and enjoy those things. I'll consider RCIA, but will never "convert", as I'm already a Christian. We'll have more conversations with the new priest that's joining from Boulder, and I'm excited to meet him and get to know him.
We have disagreements and a few arguments, but it helps that she can take part in all things at Vineyard and feels welcome. It hurts her that the Catholic church isn't like that, and there are things she wants to isolate our kids from within the church to avoid the "Catholic guilt".
We're still wrestling with infant baptism, but again we surround ourselves with wise older couples that have been through all this - from inter-denominational Christian couples to those that left the Catholic church, to those that are still in it.
I love her because she follows Jesus and is part of His church, and that's the vow we're making regarding our kids. We both try to be humble and willing to reconsider our belief and traditions in light of scripture, and neither of us think any church is 100% correct or perfect. That what I believe you look for in a Christian spouse.
I've data women with all sorts of backgrounds, including multiple Catholics.
I'll be marrying my Catholic fiancee in three months, and although we're having a Catholic wedding at the church she grew up in, it won't be a full mass with communion.
Her first visit to a non-Catholic church was after 6mo of dating me. Her response? "Hey yall believe the same stuff as us!"
We aren't trying to convert each other, just sharing our walk with Christ together, praying together, praising and worshiping God together, and seeking to humbly learn and celebrate our unique expressions of faith.
We are taking premarital counseling in the Catholic church and at Vineyard, NFP class (which we both don't agree with the restrictions on condoms and pulling out).
Us dating each other has helped us grow greatly in our faith together, celebrating what we have in common and considering the things we hold dear that are different. She loves the working of the Holy Spirit and personal prayer at Vineyard, and the focus on community group at non-denominational churches. So much that she started a young professionals bible study with her priest! It was really fun.
There are things I am adamantly against that the Catholic church takes part in, so I won't take part in those things. She keeps that in mind and is also reconsidering some things. But there are some things the Catholic church does better IMHO, and I celebrate and enjoy those things. I'll consider RCIA, but will never "convert", as I'm already a Christian. We'll have more conversations with the new priest that's joining from Boulder, and I'm excited to meet him and get to know him.
We have disagreements and a few arguments, but it helps that she can take part in all things at Vineyard and feels welcome. It hurts her that the Catholic church isn't like that, and there are things she wants to isolate our kids from within the church to avoid the "Catholic guilt".
We're still wrestling with infant baptism, but again we surround ourselves with wise older couples that have been through all this - from inter-denominational Christian couples to those that left the Catholic church, to those that are still in it.
I love her because she follows Jesus and is part of His church, and that's the vow we're making regarding our kids. We both try to be humble and willing to reconsider our belief and traditions in light of scripture, and neither of us think any church is 100% correct or perfect. That what I believe you look for in a Christian spouse.
Mike Shaw - Class of '03
Well said here.NASAg03 said:
We both try to be humble and willing to reconsider our belief and traditions in light of scripture, and neither of us think any church is 100% correct or perfect.
You seem like you're on team Sola Scriptura
Best of luck to you both.
Wish we could agree we are all on the same side, especially when we are facing the evil of violent Islam.
I have no doubt you're a better Christian than I am. In fact, at my age, you may well be right. I may not be Christian anymore. At one time I considered myself a good Christian, but as I got older, saw how the world worked, read threads like this one, went to church….the further I got away. I haven't given it much thought until you mentioned it.
Either way, We're pretty proud of having given several faiths a try after having been raised in them and finally saying "this is messed up" and then doing what we need to do to live our lives how we see best fit. Figuring out how to make that work isn't easy and it's clearly something many struggle with and the purpose of this thread as I perceived it. Your post highlights exactly the kind of mindset prevalent in modern religion that frustrates us.
As for the kids being unmoored…..untethered, unbound, free to navigate their own spiritual journey, well, yessir, I do believe we are in complete agreement there as well.
Either way, We're pretty proud of having given several faiths a try after having been raised in them and finally saying "this is messed up" and then doing what we need to do to live our lives how we see best fit. Figuring out how to make that work isn't easy and it's clearly something many struggle with and the purpose of this thread as I perceived it. Your post highlights exactly the kind of mindset prevalent in modern religion that frustrates us.
As for the kids being unmoored…..untethered, unbound, free to navigate their own spiritual journey, well, yessir, I do believe we are in complete agreement there as well.
This is a sad story and definitely seems like you were in the wrong places. I think a lot of Christians try and find a church to follow or look at the members and say this is messed up a lot. If more people would follow Jesus Christ and his teachings rather than focus on the sins of the members of the churches, life would be better.
I hope you and your family reconsider and find a church that helps you find your way back to Jesus. Because living this life for you might seem great now, but it's exactly what the enemy plants in our minds so he can win our souls.
I hope you and your family reconsider and find a church that helps you find your way back to Jesus. Because living this life for you might seem great now, but it's exactly what the enemy plants in our minds so he can win our souls.
If you see the church as a place for people to just receive moral teachings, then you're right. Why not bounce around, dabble, and then once you've seen enough to 'live a good life' just check out. And for most protestants who view the communion as symbolic that is about the top tier of church interaction anyway. Just showing up for showing ups sake. Their is no reason to participate in a repeating communion practice every Sunday because what is communion, apostolic succession, and sacraments anyway?
If you see the church as a hospital, where humans go to worship God, drive away demonic forces, and grow closer to God through perpetually improving upon your prayer, fasting, almsgiving, as well as forgiveness, confession, repentance, communion - then you can't ever get enough of the church.
When Jesus first called Andrew, Andrew didn't turn around and say "I believe in you!" and then go right back to fishing.
If you see the church as a hospital, where humans go to worship God, drive away demonic forces, and grow closer to God through perpetually improving upon your prayer, fasting, almsgiving, as well as forgiveness, confession, repentance, communion - then you can't ever get enough of the church.
When Jesus first called Andrew, Andrew didn't turn around and say "I believe in you!" and then go right back to fishing.
I mean, what do you even believe about Christianity to tell your kids, 'Hey go dabble with demons as part of your own spiritual journey?' This is page one stuff about the state of this world, demonic forces who are liars and hate God, and what even Jesus accomplished and why.BrazosDog02 said:
I have no doubt you're a better Christian than I am. In fact, at my age, you may well be right. I may not be Christian anymore. At one time I considered myself a good Christian, but as I got older, saw how the world worked, read threads like this one, went to church….the further I got away. I haven't given it much thought until you mentioned it.
Either way, We're pretty proud of having given several faiths a try after having been raised in them and finally saying "this is messed up" and then doing what we need to do to live our lives how we see best fit. Figuring out how to make that work isn't easy and it's clearly something many struggle with and the purpose of this thread as I perceived it. Your post highlights exactly the kind of mindset prevalent in modern religion that frustrates us.
As for the kids being unmoored…..untethered, unbound, free to navigate their own spiritual journey, well, yessir, I do believe we are in complete agreement there as well.
You're getting older, man has received death as a blessing to repent to God before his own judgement. If we were immortal but also fallen, this earth would look exactly like hell. I think its time you start taking religion more seriously.
The inheritance of your worldview is spiritual death.
As a sidenote, this was part of the reason I eventually rejected the baptist-nondenominational expressions of Christianity and eventually all of protestantism as a whole.
If baptism and communion are just symbols - why do them? What difference does it make?
If salvation is one and done salvic prayer - why repent and change your life?
If each church can be autonomous - how does it receive correction?
If the bible is self interpreting and the sole derivation of authority - is that in the bible? What does that make of the people who pulled the bible together? Was there no authority within the church before the bible?
BrazosDog has found lukewarm expressions of protestantism and, ironically, spit them out of his mouth.
If baptism and communion are just symbols - why do them? What difference does it make?
If salvation is one and done salvic prayer - why repent and change your life?
If each church can be autonomous - how does it receive correction?
If the bible is self interpreting and the sole derivation of authority - is that in the bible? What does that make of the people who pulled the bible together? Was there no authority within the church before the bible?
BrazosDog has found lukewarm expressions of protestantism and, ironically, spit them out of his mouth.
one MEEN Ag said:
If baptism and communion are just symbols - why do them? What difference does it make?
I think many protestant churches really miss the mark here, being a protestant (reformed) myself. Weekly communion at my current church (all other past churches have been maybe monthly at the most) is highly edifying any likely one of the highlights of my week.
Salvation is no way a one and done prayer. Again, many churches will lead you to believe this by leading everyone in the sinner's prayer and leaving it at that.Quote:
If salvation is one and done salvic prayer - why repent and change your life?
The pastors, elders, deacons and members must all fight for doctrinal integrity. We are all part of the body and must work together. Church discipline is more or less non existent in most protestant churches.Quote:
If each church can be autonomous - how does it receive correction?
Revelation 3:14-16 -totally agree. Don't be like the Laodiceans.Quote:
BrazosDog has found lukewarm expressions of protestantism and, ironically, spit them out of his mouth.
right. the problem was not that he married a Catholic, it's that he married a *****.Howdy Dammit said:Ol_Ag_02 said:
As someone who was married to a Catholic girl for 20 years I would not advise it. Now that we're getting a divorce because of her propensity to have sex with her co-workers I will immediately exclude any Catholic girl from the dating pool.
I'll never set foot in a Catholic Church again and frankly that's a good thing for me. It's really a bad idea. Yes we're both Christians but it's about as far apart as you can get. Non-Catholics should not marry Catholics.
What in the world does Catholicism have to do with cheating?
I'd like to be mad about your comments but you're spot on for me. I found nothin of value at church. Even the message wasn't fulfilling. That at least used to have value. I. Spent my childhood in church, then I went to Catholic Church while dating the wife back in the day, and then that opened more questions about things. I spent the next 20 years questioning the Catholic Church and all the fanfare. My questions became many and my answers became few. A series of life events happened that made me have even more questions. Eventually I just backed out of the whole thing. We tried to fake our way through it so the kids would have a solid belief but you can imagine how well that worked. So, after they were confirmed, we handled all reading and teachings on our own. We sought out our own answers and did our own study. The answers are still not all answered but organized modern religion is something we crawfished nearly Completely out of.
If you want to understand where I am with the whole thing, I'm happy to discuss. Be aware my questions are not easy and they are downright offensive to most that I've tried to have legit conversations about while trying to reconstruct my faith. During mass, while everyone is praying and preparing their minds for communion, I'm sitting in the back wondering what proof there is that Jesus, the guy that all this is built on, is anything other than a good salesman born at the right time selling something people wanted to buy. I don't know he's any kind of messiah. How do I know that? Jews don't think that…what about them? Why does the Catholic Church think they are THE church? Seems a bit arrogant. Jesus didn't have all that during his time. He did his thing with nothing but his word.
You can see why I'm not able to find answers. I'm not rolling up to a devout Catholic with questions like that. I might as well have horns coming out of my head. My current position on it all is that of Deism. I believe there is a God. I do not believe he interferes or interacts in any way with this world or our lives. Jesus may be legit, maybe not, but it doesn't matter. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. It is what it is.
So there you have it. That's my current state of affairs. Like I said, you pretty much have my situation figured out, and it's a bit of a mess and probably not salvageable any longer.
If you want to understand where I am with the whole thing, I'm happy to discuss. Be aware my questions are not easy and they are downright offensive to most that I've tried to have legit conversations about while trying to reconstruct my faith. During mass, while everyone is praying and preparing their minds for communion, I'm sitting in the back wondering what proof there is that Jesus, the guy that all this is built on, is anything other than a good salesman born at the right time selling something people wanted to buy. I don't know he's any kind of messiah. How do I know that? Jews don't think that…what about them? Why does the Catholic Church think they are THE church? Seems a bit arrogant. Jesus didn't have all that during his time. He did his thing with nothing but his word.
You can see why I'm not able to find answers. I'm not rolling up to a devout Catholic with questions like that. I might as well have horns coming out of my head. My current position on it all is that of Deism. I believe there is a God. I do not believe he interferes or interacts in any way with this world or our lives. Jesus may be legit, maybe not, but it doesn't matter. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. It is what it is.
So there you have it. That's my current state of affairs. Like I said, you pretty much have my situation figured out, and it's a bit of a mess and probably not salvageable any longer.
Brazos, I call you out not to stick a thumb in your eye but Spirit willing, help bring about your return to Christ. You can't offend me with any question, because I've asked every one of those offensive questions myself. I would love to hear more about hangs up you have with the church, because there are plenty of people on this forum having questions, and as a generation we see large swaths of people stepping back because they've seen what leaning in looks like at their church.
As a background, I was raised baptist nondenom and after a couple of years of searching joined an orthodox church in Houston. We absolutely love it and have run headfirst into it. You're not going to catch me defending modern catholic teachings, and I'll try to point out continuities and discontinuities along the way. Anyone and everyone is welcome to join me on sunday morning. I'll happily host, so for those reading just PM me.
So your most basic question is - how did Jesus show his divinity during his lifetime? This is a big big question with lots of presuppositions. You're not the only one with this question. The short answer is basically fulfilling OT prophecy and the life that Jesus lived. Jesus is the jewish messiah, fulfilling jewish prophecy that we all can be grafted into Israel and saved through the jewish messiah. To wash away the jewishness of Jesus is to miss the point.
Gamaliel, a highly respective Pharisee during Jesus time, in Acts is recounted as saying, 'If he's like the others who claim to be the messiah (and weren't) he'll die like the rest of them out in the desert - but if he IS the messiah you won't be able to stop him.' This hints at A) there was clearly a time (called the messianic age) and B) other people were claiming to be the messiah as well.
So if you're a devout Jew during the first century of Christ - what are you to do? What is guiding you to think there is going to be a messiah coming about now anyway? The biggest prophecy about when is in Daniel. The Babylonian exile will last long enough to cover for all of the Sabbath years the nation of Israel did not let the land lay fallow. Now, God is saying that the Messiah will come in 62 'sevens'. So roughly 483 years after the babylonian exile. That puts us squarely in the time of Christ. That is why there are people anticipating a messiah even if they don't fully understand exactly what, who or how. As a sidenote, this is a big thing that modern judiasm has to square away. A) God told them exactly how long and what for the exile would be, and B) God fortold a coming Messiah with an age. Modern Judiasm has neither of those answers or prophecies about why there is a 2000 year layover on the 'true' messiah coming nor why there has been such a long wait.
https://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-sevens.html
Another way people knew Jesus was the messiah was his life. He lived the whole story arc of Israel, but succeeded where they failed. He was born of a virgin, he fled to Egypt, was called out of Egypt, he spend 40 days in the desert but obeyed God while there, he walked back through the Jordan like the Israelites, he lived in peace, and destroyed sin instead of letting sin destroy himself. He taught Torah with authority from a young age. People saw that there was something special about him quickly. This is on top of his miracles, the fact that drove out demons (showing he had authority over them), healed the sick, and was resurrected. His apostles didn't fully understand who He was until he was resurrected either and appeared to them. It wasn't just Thomas who doubted. Miracles followed those who loved Jesus throughout the history of the church. And miracles have never stopped being a part of calling people back to Church. I can share the stories of more modern saints who performed miracles (St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Iakovos of Evia but thats getting really far ahead of ourselves.
I would listen to this episode explaining Jesus as the messiah. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/you_are_the_christ_the_son_of_the_living_god
Warning though, you're going to gain a kernel of knowledge and come back wanting more, this is just how it works. So hopefully we can thread the needle on brevity but also completeness of answers.
As a background, I was raised baptist nondenom and after a couple of years of searching joined an orthodox church in Houston. We absolutely love it and have run headfirst into it. You're not going to catch me defending modern catholic teachings, and I'll try to point out continuities and discontinuities along the way. Anyone and everyone is welcome to join me on sunday morning. I'll happily host, so for those reading just PM me.
So your most basic question is - how did Jesus show his divinity during his lifetime? This is a big big question with lots of presuppositions. You're not the only one with this question. The short answer is basically fulfilling OT prophecy and the life that Jesus lived. Jesus is the jewish messiah, fulfilling jewish prophecy that we all can be grafted into Israel and saved through the jewish messiah. To wash away the jewishness of Jesus is to miss the point.
Gamaliel, a highly respective Pharisee during Jesus time, in Acts is recounted as saying, 'If he's like the others who claim to be the messiah (and weren't) he'll die like the rest of them out in the desert - but if he IS the messiah you won't be able to stop him.' This hints at A) there was clearly a time (called the messianic age) and B) other people were claiming to be the messiah as well.
So if you're a devout Jew during the first century of Christ - what are you to do? What is guiding you to think there is going to be a messiah coming about now anyway? The biggest prophecy about when is in Daniel. The Babylonian exile will last long enough to cover for all of the Sabbath years the nation of Israel did not let the land lay fallow. Now, God is saying that the Messiah will come in 62 'sevens'. So roughly 483 years after the babylonian exile. That puts us squarely in the time of Christ. That is why there are people anticipating a messiah even if they don't fully understand exactly what, who or how. As a sidenote, this is a big thing that modern judiasm has to square away. A) God told them exactly how long and what for the exile would be, and B) God fortold a coming Messiah with an age. Modern Judiasm has neither of those answers or prophecies about why there is a 2000 year layover on the 'true' messiah coming nor why there has been such a long wait.
https://www.gotquestions.org/seventy-sevens.html
Another way people knew Jesus was the messiah was his life. He lived the whole story arc of Israel, but succeeded where they failed. He was born of a virgin, he fled to Egypt, was called out of Egypt, he spend 40 days in the desert but obeyed God while there, he walked back through the Jordan like the Israelites, he lived in peace, and destroyed sin instead of letting sin destroy himself. He taught Torah with authority from a young age. People saw that there was something special about him quickly. This is on top of his miracles, the fact that drove out demons (showing he had authority over them), healed the sick, and was resurrected. His apostles didn't fully understand who He was until he was resurrected either and appeared to them. It wasn't just Thomas who doubted. Miracles followed those who loved Jesus throughout the history of the church. And miracles have never stopped being a part of calling people back to Church. I can share the stories of more modern saints who performed miracles (St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Iakovos of Evia but thats getting really far ahead of ourselves.
I would listen to this episode explaining Jesus as the messiah. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/you_are_the_christ_the_son_of_the_living_god
Warning though, you're going to gain a kernel of knowledge and come back wanting more, this is just how it works. So hopefully we can thread the needle on brevity but also completeness of answers.
I'm going to digest this post a bit and go through the links. I appreciate the time you spent putting it together and I appreciate willingness to teach and understanding of my shallow and misguided opinion. I know I am incredibly difficult to bring over to things I've already decided on. I will fully admit that if Jesus showed up today, on my doorstep, told me who he was, healed my ailments, and forgave me of everything bad I'd ever done.....I'd still have a part of me that says "well, maybe this is a big coincidence." And that's why sometimes I ask myself, why doesnt jesus just come back now? Is this world not bad enough to warrant it? If believing in Christ and following Christ is the answer, he can bring that about simply by showing up, wouldn't that just expedite this whole peace thing? It's tough to brush off a guy who can cure cancer and make a quadriplegic walk again. Why not just come back and fix it now?
Jack Boyett said:
The only thing that really bugs me about Catholics is what RAB just said. "mixed faith marriage". I was just reading Butkkers speech, he talks about his wife converting to the faith. Was she Hindu or something? It's not conversion. It's a slight variation of the exact same belief system. Don't yall Catholics think it's just a little bit arrogant when you word it this way?
Don't get an orthodox dude started. We think Roman Catholics and Protestants are more similar than different. Catholic is very tolerable though and we already kind of get where they are going.
American Protestantism went to wacky town. Most just don't know it because they grew up with it and they don't know any better or have taken the time to research anything.
All of this coming from a former protestant. I find the concept and beliefs of protestantism horrifying at its very core.
I find the concept and beliefs of protestantism horrifying at its very core.CrackerJackAg said:Jack Boyett said:
The only thing that really bugs me about Catholics is what RAB just said. "mixed faith marriage". I was just reading Butkkers speech, he talks about his wife converting to the faith. Was she Hindu or something? It's not conversion. It's a slight variation of the exact same belief system. Don't yall Catholics think it's just a little bit arrogant when you word it this way?
Don't get an orthodox dude started. We think Roman Catholics and Protestants are more similar than different. Catholic is very tolerable though and we already kind of get where they are going.
American Protestantism went to wacky town. Most just don't know it because they grew up with it and they don't know any better or have taken the time to research anything.
All of this coming from a former protestant. I find the concept and beliefs of protestantism horrifying at its very core.
Can you explain this? Not trying to derail this thread, but I am not understanding. I grew up in an AofG church and now attend a non-dnom church and I guess I don't understand the strong reactions to different churches of the same faith.
Protestants is so broad a category as to be useless, but certain flavors of Calvinism are pretty dang dark.
But they're not the same faith, which is kind of the point.
But they're not the same faith, which is kind of the point.
My first post was not as charitable as it should have been. So my apologies.BrazosDog02 said:
I'm going to digest this post a bit and go through the links. I appreciate the time you spent putting it together and I appreciate willingness to teach and understanding of my shallow and misguided opinion. I know I am incredibly difficult to bring over to things I've already decided on. I will fully admit that if Jesus showed up today, on my doorstep, told me who he was, healed my ailments, and forgave me of everything bad I'd ever done.....I'd still have a part of me that says "well, maybe this is a big coincidence." And that's why sometimes I ask myself, why doesnt jesus just come back now? Is this world not bad enough to warrant it? If believing in Christ and following Christ is the answer, he can bring that about simply by showing up, wouldn't that just expedite this whole peace thing? It's tough to brush off a guy who can cure cancer and make a quadriplegic walk again. Why not just come back and fix it now?
Its really tough to just read about Jesus and hope for the best. Hope this isn't some elaborate scheme. But that is why the Orthodox faith is so incredible to me because it is chock full of opportunities to grow closer to God and see Christianity's authenticity. Firstly, the preservation of the lives of the saints where you learn about miracle workers over the ages and up until modern day. Like those two saints I listed previously. Wonder and miracle working icons still exist. You can today, fly to Honolulu and see the Russian Orthodox Church's preservation of a myrrh streaming icon of Mary holding Jesus.
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/12/how-a-wonderworking-icon-helped-revive-an-oahu-russian-orthodox-church/
God did not form the church and then immediately abandon it after the apostles died.
Regarding Jesus's return, theres a lot to unpack. On a simple level Jesus coming back isn't going to be a good day for everyone. He's coming back to judge the world, not just say hey I'm Jesus and you're all healed! There will be resurrection of everyone who has ever lived, judgement for everything we have ever done, and every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Christ is Lord. Because it will be obvious that he is God. And we're going to beg for mercy for our sins, each one of us has them. The veil between heaven and earth will be removed though and free will to repent of our sins will be up. Asking for mercy and for more time for us to repent is a core part of orthodoxy - period. We ask humbly for these things constantly.
When Jesus comes back there is first a sorting of the sheep from the goats - pretty easy. Then death dies. Then those who have loved God go on to experience eternity with Christ in a reformed earth. The garden is restored and man's destiny to be among the angels worshipping God is fulfilled.
So partly the reason Jesus hasn't come back yet is because even if you're squared away with God (and you never can fully be as there is always room for more humility, more prayer, more asking for forgiveness, and giving forgiveness for you to do), the people who have wronged you also get their time on this earth to repent of their sins. So to say, Jesus come back now, would mean to not allow those people time to repent and forgive one another and receive forgiveness.
And partially, the world isn't as bad as it has been. Beyond 2000 years ago the world was a very dark place save for a very few areas and bits of time. Paganism and demons were rampant. The past two thousand years has been the church flourishing, bringing peace, love, forgiveness, and kindness to the world in ways never seen before. Paganism is beaten back to the edges of this earth. Thats not to say there is not a lot wrong with the world right now, but compared to pre-holy spirit times, yeesh. The age, where Jesus is ruling in the midst of His enemies is the final major act before judgement. Jesus resurrecting was D-Day. It was the beginning of the end.
At its core you're asking what is suffering and why do we have it? Well we have it because of our ancestral sin, and our own sin. Adam and Eve brought death to man, but we bring our own damnation through our actions. We experience the suffering us humans have brought about ourselves, and the suffering caused by demons to bring about our salvation. The demons obey Christ against their will. They are unwilling tools for our own salvation. The three D's are really what shake people out of their daily consumerist lives - death, divorce, and disease. Thats not a coincidence.
Why resurrect the dead? They are dead. Have they not been judged at the time of death? What's the purpose of that? And, if Jesus comes back, how on earth could anyone deny they believe? Wouldn't everyone be saved on the spot? I know I'm iffy on religion and Jesus but if the apocalypse comes and dead people are resurrected, I'm pretty sure that's going to be convincing to me. In other words, why do anything but live how you want? I don't know, this kind of stuff always yields more questions. I guess originally, my opinion was that none of it mattered. God doesn't interfere. I have to work it out like that because to believe differently means he picks and chooses who is blessed and who is damned and I can't oblige that sort of deity. So, I like to think he does nothing in this earth. My mother dying of cancer isn't his fault. Me finding a $100 bucks in the parking lot isn't his doing either. So maybe I'm mostly screwed because I know there's a possibility he exists and I still reject it. I dunno. That's above my understanding. I've posted here in the past about pagan rituals and how I believe Christianity commandeered those to our liking and as such that pushes me toward thinking some of it is made up. Then again, maybe I'm searching for only the answers I want to hear. That's a distinct possibility.
Why resurrect the dead? They are dead.
Because you don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humanity was made to be in bodies. You are dust that God breathed life into. Through Adam and Eve's sin there are a couple punishments and prophecies made. Firstly, Adam and Eve will return to dust. Secondly, satan will become the eater of the dead, so his domain will be hades. Thirdly, a man will come who will crush the snakes head (killing it) while the snake strikes the man's heal (killing him - sounds awfully messanic right?). So resurrection does a few things. It shows the defeat of death, that hades nor satan has no hold against Christ.
Have they not been judged at the time of death? What's the purpose of that?
Yes and no. We don't fully know this right now, but we know enough to keep us on the straight and narrow in this life. Before Christ's resurrection. Everyone went to sheol, the grave. within Sheol were at least two areas: where the righteous were and the abyss - where the unrighteous were. No one is having a good time in Sheol, but the righteous aren't having as bad of a time as those cut off completely from God in the abyss. Christ, on saturday after his death either A) cleared out the righteous and took them to heaven B) preached the gospel in hades and completely cleared it out because who would want to stay? In our modern age, it looks like death leads to either one or two places but neither is the final resting place for either. Living a righteous life you are taken to Christ to see the world play out. Living an unrighteous life you are back in hades living a life separated from God. The catholics introduce a third option called purgatory, we won't get into that. But both Catholics and Orthodox are called to pray for the dead, because they aren't truly dead. So pray on their behalf to God asking for mercy. Maybe there is hope before the final judgement. We are not to act like universal salvation is a reality.
As a sidenote, the prophet Jonah most certainly died. He did not spend 3 days sloshing around the belly of a fish holding his breath. He went 'beneath the pillars of the Abyss.' He dead dead. That is why Jesus says to the pharisees 'to the unbelieving pharisees the only miracle you will see is the miracle of Jonah'. That Jesus would be alive again in three days like Jonah was.
And, if Jesus comes back, how on earth could anyone deny they believe? Wouldn't everyone be saved on the spot? I know I'm iffy on religion and Jesus but if the apocalypse comes and dead people are resurrected, I'm pretty sure that's going to be convincing to me. In other words, why do anything but live how you want?
Because you, generally, have been given free will to chose to love God and follow his commandments or not right now. God not being here in the sky 24/7 is part of that free will. When judgement day comes, the gig is up, its time to review the tape of our transgressions. You didn't love God if you missed out on the whole living your life in accordance with his will but suddenly believe everything once he shows up to sort.
I don't know, this kind of stuff always yields more questions. I guess originally, my opinion was that none of it mattered. God doesn't interfere.
It absolutely matters. You have been given one life to live, but eternity awaits based upon how you live it. God is not a master clockmaker. He did not wind up the universe and let it run without further influence. God is both present in everything and hidden from those who don't want to see it. You chase after God, He'll chase after you. Same with demons on a lesser extent by the way.
I have to work it out like that because to believe differently means he picks and chooses who is blessed and who is damned and I can't oblige that sort of deity.
God straight up says He lets the rain fall on the just and the wicked. The wicked get their comuppance in due time. In the meantime they are given the opportunity to repent. This is the whole point of the prodigal son. God desires all men are saved and that they repent. Its a joyous celebration both on earth and in heaven when someone turns from damnation and towards the blessings of God. The second part of the prodigal son encapsulates that. The older son who did what his father asks is jealous of the prodigal son. And the father shares, 'Don't you get it? Doing the virtuous things day in and day out is the blessings - everything of mine is shared with you'.
Who is damned in the bible by God and only by God? I think you would enjoy the books of wisdom. Proverbs is kind of the simple heuristics of life. Ecclesiastes is exactly were you're at. And Job is in its own league. We see a man stripped of everything, but still praising God, and then worldly blessed. And at the end of the day - its the eternal blessings that matter. Try not to get caught up in the material world as a indicator of spiritual blessings.
So, I like to think he does nothing in this earth. My mother dying of cancer isn't his fault. Me finding a $100 bucks in the parking lot isn't his doing either. So maybe I'm mostly screwed because I know there's a possibility he exists and I still reject it. I dunno. That's above my understanding. I've posted here in the past about pagan rituals and how I believe Christianity commandeered those to our liking and as such that pushes me toward thinking some of it is made up. Then again, maybe I'm searching for only the answers I want to hear. That's a distinct possibility.
Remember, all things are to bring about your salvation. Blessings and the bitter tears of death and disease. They are both the right and left hand of God.
Pagan rituals are interesting. There are basically no true pagan rituals anymore. Anyone sacrificing virgins at your pagan rituals? Do they hold that whatever spirits they commune with will grant them power? They are mostly larping and pulled of their demonic teeth by Christ and Christian ethic. Any overlap of pagan rituals is when a people group converts and then keeps something to remind themselves of Christ saving them from their pagan past. And that is now the new ritual. Sidenote: There are still demonic rituals though, where people knowingly commune with demons. But those are different, its not asking the 'mother earth' or 'the sun god' or 'forest spirits' for blessings. Its bargaining with outright demons for power in exchange for worshipping them.
Lord of Spirits has a great part on the first couple of episodes where a woman calls in and says she and a few other people were devout worshippers of Zeus. Tried to live pious lives in devotion to Zeus in the modern age. And that one day Zeus spoke to them and said its time for you to worship who we serve- Yahweh. And they joined the church, and that this story is a common theme in pagan worship.
Because you don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humanity was made to be in bodies. You are dust that God breathed life into. Through Adam and Eve's sin there are a couple punishments and prophecies made. Firstly, Adam and Eve will return to dust. Secondly, satan will become the eater of the dead, so his domain will be hades. Thirdly, a man will come who will crush the snakes head (killing it) while the snake strikes the man's heal (killing him - sounds awfully messanic right?). So resurrection does a few things. It shows the defeat of death, that hades nor satan has no hold against Christ.
Have they not been judged at the time of death? What's the purpose of that?
Yes and no. We don't fully know this right now, but we know enough to keep us on the straight and narrow in this life. Before Christ's resurrection. Everyone went to sheol, the grave. within Sheol were at least two areas: where the righteous were and the abyss - where the unrighteous were. No one is having a good time in Sheol, but the righteous aren't having as bad of a time as those cut off completely from God in the abyss. Christ, on saturday after his death either A) cleared out the righteous and took them to heaven B) preached the gospel in hades and completely cleared it out because who would want to stay? In our modern age, it looks like death leads to either one or two places but neither is the final resting place for either. Living a righteous life you are taken to Christ to see the world play out. Living an unrighteous life you are back in hades living a life separated from God. The catholics introduce a third option called purgatory, we won't get into that. But both Catholics and Orthodox are called to pray for the dead, because they aren't truly dead. So pray on their behalf to God asking for mercy. Maybe there is hope before the final judgement. We are not to act like universal salvation is a reality.
As a sidenote, the prophet Jonah most certainly died. He did not spend 3 days sloshing around the belly of a fish holding his breath. He went 'beneath the pillars of the Abyss.' He dead dead. That is why Jesus says to the pharisees 'to the unbelieving pharisees the only miracle you will see is the miracle of Jonah'. That Jesus would be alive again in three days like Jonah was.
And, if Jesus comes back, how on earth could anyone deny they believe? Wouldn't everyone be saved on the spot? I know I'm iffy on religion and Jesus but if the apocalypse comes and dead people are resurrected, I'm pretty sure that's going to be convincing to me. In other words, why do anything but live how you want?
Because you, generally, have been given free will to chose to love God and follow his commandments or not right now. God not being here in the sky 24/7 is part of that free will. When judgement day comes, the gig is up, its time to review the tape of our transgressions. You didn't love God if you missed out on the whole living your life in accordance with his will but suddenly believe everything once he shows up to sort.
I don't know, this kind of stuff always yields more questions. I guess originally, my opinion was that none of it mattered. God doesn't interfere.
It absolutely matters. You have been given one life to live, but eternity awaits based upon how you live it. God is not a master clockmaker. He did not wind up the universe and let it run without further influence. God is both present in everything and hidden from those who don't want to see it. You chase after God, He'll chase after you. Same with demons on a lesser extent by the way.
I have to work it out like that because to believe differently means he picks and chooses who is blessed and who is damned and I can't oblige that sort of deity.
God straight up says He lets the rain fall on the just and the wicked. The wicked get their comuppance in due time. In the meantime they are given the opportunity to repent. This is the whole point of the prodigal son. God desires all men are saved and that they repent. Its a joyous celebration both on earth and in heaven when someone turns from damnation and towards the blessings of God. The second part of the prodigal son encapsulates that. The older son who did what his father asks is jealous of the prodigal son. And the father shares, 'Don't you get it? Doing the virtuous things day in and day out is the blessings - everything of mine is shared with you'.
Who is damned in the bible by God and only by God? I think you would enjoy the books of wisdom. Proverbs is kind of the simple heuristics of life. Ecclesiastes is exactly were you're at. And Job is in its own league. We see a man stripped of everything, but still praising God, and then worldly blessed. And at the end of the day - its the eternal blessings that matter. Try not to get caught up in the material world as a indicator of spiritual blessings.
So, I like to think he does nothing in this earth. My mother dying of cancer isn't his fault. Me finding a $100 bucks in the parking lot isn't his doing either. So maybe I'm mostly screwed because I know there's a possibility he exists and I still reject it. I dunno. That's above my understanding. I've posted here in the past about pagan rituals and how I believe Christianity commandeered those to our liking and as such that pushes me toward thinking some of it is made up. Then again, maybe I'm searching for only the answers I want to hear. That's a distinct possibility.
Remember, all things are to bring about your salvation. Blessings and the bitter tears of death and disease. They are both the right and left hand of God.
Pagan rituals are interesting. There are basically no true pagan rituals anymore. Anyone sacrificing virgins at your pagan rituals? Do they hold that whatever spirits they commune with will grant them power? They are mostly larping and pulled of their demonic teeth by Christ and Christian ethic. Any overlap of pagan rituals is when a people group converts and then keeps something to remind themselves of Christ saving them from their pagan past. And that is now the new ritual. Sidenote: There are still demonic rituals though, where people knowingly commune with demons. But those are different, its not asking the 'mother earth' or 'the sun god' or 'forest spirits' for blessings. Its bargaining with outright demons for power in exchange for worshipping them.
Lord of Spirits has a great part on the first couple of episodes where a woman calls in and says she and a few other people were devout worshippers of Zeus. Tried to live pious lives in devotion to Zeus in the modern age. And that one day Zeus spoke to them and said its time for you to worship who we serve- Yahweh. And they joined the church, and that this story is a common theme in pagan worship.
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