https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/the-deaconess/contemporary-orthodox-deaconesses/bishop-ordains-orthodox-christian-woman-as-deaconess/

Quote:

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On May 2, 2024, Holy Thursday, Angelic Molen of Harare, Zimbabwe, was ordained Deaconess Angelic in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa (the Orthodox Church in the continent of Africa) by His Eminence Metropolitan Serafim of Zimbabwe (Kykotis) in St. Nektarios Mission Parish at WaterFall. This historic event would not be possible without the approval and support of the Alexandrian Synod and His Beatitude Theodorus. The ordination of Deaconess Angelis was the culmination of efforts around the world to renew the ancient order of deaconesses in the Orthodox Church, and specifically for the unique needs of parishes in Africa.

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I am not an Aggie but have a friend who went to school there and he directed me to this site for good religious discussion. I am Catholic and saw this posted on a Facebook page I follow and wanted to ask if anyone had any insight into how this could be possible and whether the ordination was considered valid

This madness is happening in our own house too. Those Germans again...

https://infovaticana.com/2024/04/23/obispo-aleman-nombra-a-13-mujeres-diaconisas-en-el-espiritu/

Deconettes are the first step Priestettes and eventually Bishopettes.

If the bishop had ordained her a priest/priestess instead of making her a deaconess, would your answer be the same? And would you and other Orthodox accept that ordination?

Zobel said:

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Why is it madness?

"Valid" is a RC thing. Bishop did it, therefore she is a deaconess.

Bishops are an icon of Christs; priests are extension of the bishop and so are also icons of Christ.

Deacons are the servants of the bishop. They're not the same category as a priest.

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Question: do Orthodox believe the "in persona Christi" part of the priesthood? That's why popes have said women can never be deacons in the Catholic Church so curious about y'all's side.

ETA: in persona extends to reading the gospel and giving homilies. A woman would not be able to do that, so they can not be a true deacon. Although I assume the current pope or a future one will try to create a third tier of some sort.

no, answer would not be the same.

a bishop doing something which is apostolic, canonical, is not the same thing as a bishop doing whatever they want. the distinctions between valid and licit are RCC that - as far as i know - don't formally exist in Orthodoxy.

at any rate, this isn't my bishop or even my patriarchate. but, i don't see any particular issue with it. there are some 30 deaconess saints on our calendar.

so... what's the issue here?

Zobel said:

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no, answer would not be the same.

a bishop doing something which is apostolic, canonical, is not the same thing as a bishop doing whatever they want. the distinctions between valid and licit are RCC that - as far as i know - don't formally exist in Orthodoxy.

at any rate, this isn't my bishop or even my patriarchate. but, i don't see any particular issue with it. there are some 30 deaconess saints on our calendar.

so... what's the issue here?

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I don't think the OP was referring to the RCC definition of validity but rather the general meaning of something being correctly done according to the rules of a given church - you say the bishop cannot do things that are not apostolic and canonical, so the question would be is if this fulfills both of those. One interesting tidbit from the article says that the deaconess will be participating in the Liturgy, but I haven't found any evidence for past deaconesses having done that. So how do you know if it's within the rules of Orthodoxy?

Of course the "issue", as you say, is the constant worry of progressive arms of churches pushing female inclusion into male roles, and they're wondering how Orthodox see this particular case. Its a logical question, certainly worthy of a discussion even if there's nothing wrong with this particular case. I've certainly never met a deaconess so I naturally have a curiosity of what the heck they'd do and how they'd be different than a male deacon or not.

The madness is in the seeking of Holy Orders with something/someone that can't be ordained. In the Catholic sphere, such moves are afoot and have been for decades. The move is picking up steam lately. To put this in an analogy... the women seeking ordination (not just mere episcopal helpers) are similar to attempting to bring about the Eucharist by using broccoli instead of bread.

I may get some of the lingo wrong, but I'll do my best:

Preaching the gospel was the job of Jesus and then the apostles. This was a role that Jesus specifically gave to his apostles (all male) who then ordained other males in order to further spread the message. So we believe that every time a priest reads the gospel or preaches on it, he is assuming that role that Christ Himself first had and then gave to the apostles. That's in addition to Bible verse on women not teaching publicly nor any strong support for females holding that role in the past. Hence why a "female deacon" could never exist in the way we currently view deacons in the Catholic Church.

There were deaconesses. So far Catholic commissions on this have found them to be general helpers. They had no liturgical or teaching role. That why I said the Catholic Church will likely find some sort of third tier where women can be called deaconesses, but it will be different than a deacon.

Lastly is the "ordained" part. We ordain our priests and deacons. In fact priests first become deacons. Is that how it goes for yall? Maybe I need to read up more on the deaconess saints but my understanding is they did not have any significant role in the mass at all.

well, seeing as the church had deaconesses for eight centuries going back to the time of the apostles i'd think the question of whether it was normative and apostolic is a given.

we have female saints with the title of equal to the apostles - like St Thekla or St Nana of Iberia. Most of these women saints have that title for their role in evangelizing. one would presume when they did so, they taught from the scriptures. St Photini, the woman at the well is another example of one equal to the apostles.

We have a hymn that says -

Having learned the joyful message
of the Resurrection from the angel
the women disciples of the Lord
cast from them their parental condemnation
And proudly broke the news to the Disciples,
saying, Death hath been spoiled;
Christ God is risen,
granting the world Great Mercy.


Christ told them - go and tell the disciples. The first who received the gospel were women.

We have women chanters and singers. Not tonsured readers, as far as I know, but women chant the prayers in a liturgical participation. I don't see how reading the gospel is different, personally, but this is just my opinion.

if you want to say - St Paul's instructions to St Timothy about women teaching men is something that we can generalize out of context to say women can't give a homily, ok. i have no opinion on this.

yes - a priest is first ordained as a deacon.

the office of deacon (and deaconess) is something the Church, the apostles, created to fill a need. i don't know what the role of deaconess should be or ought to be, but i assume a bishop does. you say a deaconess was a general helper. That is what a deacon -is- anyway.

Edit to add. I can only remember a deacon giving a homily one time in the last 10 years.

So what all does/can a deaconess do? Is it literally the same as a deacon except in sex of the person? I mentioned previously that this article explicitly says that the deaconess will be part of the Liturgy. Ok, but what does that mean? They did not do that in the past (from my limited research). Can the deaconess perform baptisms like deacons do? We all know the church had deaconesses at one point, but the key question remains: are they substantially different now than previously and is it being used currently to further progressive causes rather than simply restoring that previous role. It's not as simple as "we had them previously, don't see an issue".

Deacons don't baptize except in last resort / emergency. Laymen can as well.

I wrote above what deacons do. They are general helpers. Liturgically they lead the prayers (litanies) and generally do the censing, and typically read the gospel aloud. They do not preside over any of the mysteries, as they are not pastors. If the bishop says she's going to do all those things, what is the problem? I don't see any of those as gendered in the way the priestly functions are inherently masculine.

Anyway! Christ is Risen!

(From USCCB, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops)

1. A deacon is an ordained minister of the Catholic Church. There are three groups, or "orders," of ordained ministers in the Church: bishops, presbyters and deacons.

2. As ministers of Word, deacons proclaim the Gospel, preach, and teach in the name of the Church.

3. As ministers of Sacrament, deacons baptize, lead the faithful in prayer, witness marriages, and conduct wake and funeral services.

4. As ministers of Charity, deacons are leaders in identifying the needs of others, then marshaling the Church's resources to meet those needs.

5. For many years ordained ministers "ascended" from one office to another, culminating in ordination to the presbyterate, or priesthood. The Second Vatican Council (1962 1965), however, authorized the restoration of the
diaconate as a PERMANENT order of ministry. So, while students for the priesthood are still ordained deacons prior to their ordination as priests, there are more than 13,000 deacons in the United States alone who minister
in this Order permanently. There is no difference in the sacramental sign or the functions between these so-called "transitional" and "permanent deacons."

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There is this idea that a shortage of priest will mean the end of the Catholic Church. It is usually by people who have no real understanding of how our church functions. Deacons are essential role to the RCC and can administer the Eucharist and word (homily) through a Eucharist Service in places such as a prison on a Sunday when many of the diocesan priest are limited to the parishes due to their limited number.

Unless the number of vocations to the priesthood double in the next 10-15 years to offset the number of retiring priests- you can bet the Church will look into allowing women to serve as permanent deacons. And why not?

Zobel, your early church history is our early church history. The RCC is well aware of the contributions of women deacons and in fact the patron saint of the Order of Preachers is Mary of Magdalene because she was the first preacher. We also celebrate a number of women as Doctors of the Church, one of which is a member of the same Order, Saint Catherine of Sienna.

Bottom line, women will play a much larger role in the future of the RCC, just not "in persona Chrisiti".

1 Timothy 3:1-13
English Standard Version

Qualifications for Overseers
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Qualifications for Deacons
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Greek word used for "husband" linked below.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g435/esv/mgnt/0-1/

10andBOUNCE said:

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1 Timothy 3:1-13
English Standard Version

Qualifications for Overseers
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Qualifications for Deacons
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Greek word used for "husband" linked below.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g435/esv/mgnt/0-1/

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What did the people who heard the letters and gospels as their native tongue practice? Seems like if anyone understands it in context, it would be them.

Romans 16:1
English Standard Version
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae...

Greek work for "servant" or "diakonos" linked below.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1249/esv/mgnt/0-1/

Also used in the following passages:

John 2:5 (Waiters at a wedding were Deacons?)
His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Romans 15:8 (Christ himself was a Deacon??)
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs...

John 12:26 (all believers are Deacons???)
If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Finally, I believe that many of the newer Bible translations are progressively bent and geared towards a much more gender neutral tone. Evolution of the NIV is a great example. Be careful from which version you are reading from.

https://www.columbiachristian.org/post/why-i-left-the-niv-for-the-esv

Quote:

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Romans 16:1 (1984 NIV) - I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea.

Romans 16:1 (2011 NIV) - I comment to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

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Are you saying that historical records of sinful men outweigh holy scripture?

no, i'm saying that sometimes the same word is used in different ways, and your understanding of scripture is incorrect.

by way of example - presbyters and bishops are described as shepherds. many other people in the scriptures are also described as shepherds. this does not mean that all shepherds are presbyters, and it also doesn't mean that presbyters are the same as people watching over literal sheep.

presumably you agree that your local pastor is different than an actual shepherd.

So, what is the correct understanding of 1 Tim 3:8?
Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.

a deacon and a deaconess aren't the same thing.

but what is your argument? you don't want my Church to do xyz? if you're not Orthodox, i'm not sure i am much concerned about that.

we can have a discussion about how texts function in Christianity, and how authority works in the Church. if you're not Orthodox the history of ordaining women is probably not where we need to start.

Wait, so Deaconess could have only one wife? Dang!

PuertoRiCowboy said:

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I am not an Aggie but have a friend who went to school there and he directed me to this site for good religious discussion. I am Catholic and saw this posted on a Facebook page I follow and wanted to ask if anyone had any insight into how this could be possible and whether the ordination was considered valid

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I'd hate to see what your buddy calls bad religious discussion if this board gets labelled good.