Netflix did a horrible job on this documentary when they included the Quran as a source of information in regards to the life of Moses. In regards to Moses, how many things does the Quran get wrong that you are aware of?
Netflix did a horrible job on this documentary when they included the Quran as a source of information in regards to the life of Moses. In regards to Moses, how many things does the Quran get wrong that you are aware of?
What did they actually quote from the Qur'an related to the Moses story?
The is only one major difference between the Moses story in the Qur'an and the Bible, and that is related to Aaron.
In episode 1. It mentions that Zipporah's skirt blew up in the wind and Moses didn't want to look at her. They considered him a noble person because he walked in front of her.
Here are 2 questions to reflect on? Question: How would a writer in 600 AD pick up this detail not recorded 2500 years prior to the event. Question 2: According to the Bible why was Moses prevented from entering into this land?
In episode 1. It mentions that Zipporah's skirt blew up in the wind and Moses didn't want to look at her. They considered him a noble person because he walked in front of her.
Here are 2 questions to reflect on? Question: How would a writer in 600 AD pick up this detail not recorded 2500 years prior to the event. Question 2: According to the Bible why was Moses prevented from entering into this land?
I watched the bit about his arrival in Midian, and frankly I was pretty shocked to see a supposed professor repeat what you mentioned, because that story is nowhere in the Qur'an.
Quote:
When he arrived at the well of Midian, he found a group of people watering their herds. Apart from them, he noticed two women holding back their herd. He asked them, "What is the matter?" They replied, "We cannot water our animals until the other shepherds are done, for our father is a very old man." So he watered their herd for them, then withdrew to the shade and prayed, "My Lord! I am truly in desperate need of whatever provision You may have in store for me." Then one of the two women came to him, walking bashfully. She said, "My father is inviting you so he may reward you for watering our animals for us." When Moses came to him and told him his whole story, the old man said, "Have no fear! You are now safe from the wrongdoing people. One of the two daughters suggested, "O my dear father! Hire him. A strong, trustworthy person is definitely the best to hire."
Sura al-Qasas, verses 23-26 (Mustafa Khattab Translation).
There is no mention of a skirt, walking behind, or anything else. The only reference I could find for this story is not the Qur'an but a commentary on the Qur'an - a sort of study guide. The commentary itself seems to draw the story from a supposed saying of Umar, the 2nd Sunni Caliph. The saying does not even pretend to link itself to a Hadith of Muhammad (the isnad stops at Umar). There is significant debate about the veracity or authority of a saying of anyone other than Muhammad, even among Sunnis, and my school of theology certainly gives no credence whatsoever to any saying of any companion of Muhammad.
That itself is ironic because Umar tried to outlaw hadith in general during his caliphate. But there are multiple reasons and rationales behind that and it opens another can of worms directly related to the Sunni/Shi'a schism that aren't relevant to your point.
That being said, I thought you would point to a more significant difference than that one.
The skirt story was the first trigger, but to reference to Qu'ran for any information about Moses is what blew my mind.
And remember when Moses prayed for water for his people, We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Then twelve springs gushed out, and each tribe knew its drinking place. We then said, "Eat and drink of Allah's provisions, and do not go about spreading corruption in the land." Surah 2:60
Is the point to try and find a real Moses? Because none of the holy books are going to be great for that. Or is it to look at how Moses and the Exodus story are understood and written about by the major faiths?
Is the point to try and find a real Moses? Because none of the holy books are going to be great for that. Or is it to look at how Moses and the Exodus story are understood and written about by the major faiths?
The point of the show was to create a docu-series on the life of Moses. The problem is, the Qu'ran is not a source of historical information on Moses. When the Qu'ran (written 600+) has information about Moses that is not in the Bible, where did that information come from? When this information contradicts the Biblical text, why would someone believe the Qu'ran when it doesn't fit the time period?
When I examine the Qu'ran I see that the writer used the Bible as a source document for creating this new religion. Many of the cults do this. They copy the stories and the characters but on careful examination one will see where they make basic factual mistakes in their borrowing from the source.
If the Hebrew Bible isn't a source of the life of Moses, what is?
There isn't a real source on the life of Moses. Not one you'd consider a primary historical source. There's nothing supporting the idea that the Torah was written by Moses and plenty of documentary and archeological evidence that calls into serious question the entire Exodus narrative. Assuming there was a historical Moses, the Exodus narrative we have was compiled centuries and centuries after the fact. You can say the Quran narrative is even more unreliable and later, and sure, that's probably true. It's also possible that those stories were local folklore that Mohammed incorporated into his work.
There isn't a real source on the life of Moses. Not one you'd consider a primary historical source. There's nothing supporting the idea that the Torah was written by Moses and plenty of documentary and archeological evidence that calls into serious question the entire Exodus narrative.
The Nothing...
Moses was told to write... Exodus 34:27 And the Lord said to Moses, "Write these words, for in accordance with these words have made a covenant with you and with Israel."
Moses wrote: Deut 31:24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, 26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.
Exodus 17:14 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write this as a memorial in a book and recite it in the ears of Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
Numbers: 33 These are the stages of the people of Israel, when they went out of the land of Egypt by their companies under the leadership of Moses and Aaron. 2 Moses wrote down their starting places, stage by stage, by command of the Lord, and these are their stages according to their starting places.
After the writing, who all attributed the writing to Moses?
Joshua 31 just as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the people of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, "an altar of uncut stones, upon which no man has wielded an iron tool." And they offered on it burnt offerings to the Lord and sacrificed peace offerings.
The writer of Judges 3 These are the nations: the five lords of the Philistines and all the Canaanites and the Sidonians and the Hivites who lived on Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal-hermon as far as Lebo-hamath. 4 They were for rthe testing of Israel, to know whether Israel would obey the commandments of the Lord, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
The writer of 1 Kings 3 and keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,
The writer of 2 Chronicles 18 And Jehoiada posted watchmen for the house of the Lord under the direction of the Levitical priests and the Levites whom David had organized to be in charge of the house of the Lord, to offer burnt offerings to the Lord, as it is written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, according to the order of David.
These writers over the next 1,000 plus years....Ezra 3:2, Nehemiah 8:1, Daniel 9:11, Malachi 4:4, and Mark, Luke, and John.
and there's Jesus.
Mark12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
If one is interested in diving deeper one can look at the Historiographical Differences Between the Torah & Later Biblical Records
There's about 2,000 year of people attributing the torah to the hand of Moses.
The Exodus Pharaoh Explained. The overlap between the Bible and archaeology.
Yeah, virtually no one who is not ideologically committed to infallibility and doing scholarship on the Bible believes Moses wrote the Torah. It's not a cohesive text but clearly a pastiche of multiple authors.
Yeah, virtually no one who is not ideologically committed to infallibility and doing scholarship on the Bible believes Moses wrote the Torah. It's not a cohesive text but clearly a pastiche of multiple authors.
Do you realize that the statement you made if self-refuting?
If a person believes in the infallibility of Scripture, they must believe the Moses is the author of the first 5 books of the OT since this is an internal claim. (yes, Joshua probably filled in the very last details after Moses death but Moses wrote these books.)
If they believe the biblical text is mistaken , then they clearly do not believe in the infallibility of the scriptures.
Here's an example of an scholar who holds to infallibility and Moses authorship.
Intro to Deut - an additional author filled in the details of his death.
The evidence: We have books claiming to be written by Moses, We have 1,500 years of other Jewish writings claiming that Moses is the author, We have Jesus claiming Moses is the author.
NT Example:
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
Sincere question: do you think the quoted passage proves that Jesus believed that Moses wrote the book of Moses?
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
Sincere question: do you think the quoted passage proves that Jesus believed that Moses wrote the book of Moses?
Yes I do. The burning bush passage is in Exodus 3 and Jesus quotes Exodus 3:6. Additionally in the context of these recorded words from Jesus in Mark 12, we learn that the Sadducees believed this as well as they quote Deut 25:5 and ascribe this to Moses.
Mark 12
18 Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) *came to Jesus, and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves behind a wife and leaves no child, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother.
Here's a few more references that supports this position. Some are indirect and some are direct.
John 5:5 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"
John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?" 20 The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?" 21 Jesus answered them, "I did one deed, and you all marvel. 22 For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.
Matt 8:4 And Jesus *said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'
Thanks. I don't think referring to something as the book of Moses as Jesus does in the verse you shared says anything about the authorship of the "book of Moses." It's a reference to the title or subject matter of a writing and could just as easily have been written by Moses as not.
Thanks. I don't think referring to something as the book of Moses as Jesus does in the verse you shared says anything about the authorship of the "book of Moses." It's a reference to the title or subject matter of a writing and could just as easily have been written by Moses as not.
Is it possible that I'm mistaken about Moses authorship? Absolutely. This could be said about the authorship of any work of antiquity.
All options on the table are possible, but not all options on the table are reasonable. What is reasonable based upon the body of evidence?
I think there are 2 primary questions: Does the evidence point to it being reasonable to conclude that Moses was the author? Is there a better explanation of the authorship based upon the evidence?
Let's dive in this this passage and make a few observations:
18 Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) *came to Jesus, and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves behind a wife and leaves no child, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children. 21 The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the third likewise; 22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had married her." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
The Sadducees claim, Moses wrote for us, and quote Deut 25:5
Jesus claims, "have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush" and Jesus references Exodus 3.
If we isolate Jesus words alone: we have 2 interpretive options 1. A possible interpretation is that it's a book about Moses. 2. An equally valid interpretation is that it's a book written by Moses.
Note that Jesus is making it a point to correct their understanding or interpretation of the book of Moses.
In doing so he does not correct their view on the books authorship.
If Jesus is who He claimed to be, and Moses didn't write the book, I would have expected Him to correct the Sadducess on this point, as it would have been easier to say, "that book wasn't written by Moses"
Thanks. I don't think referring to something as the book of Moses as Jesus does in the verse you shared says anything about the authorship of the "book of Moses." It's a reference to the title or subject matter of a writing and could just as easily have been written by Moses as not.
Is it possible that I'm mistaken about Moses authorship? Absolutely. This could be said about the authorship of any work of antiquity.
All options on the table are possible, but not all options on the table are reasonable. What is reasonable based upon the body of evidence?
I think there are 2 primary questions: Does the evidence point to it being reasonable to conclude that Moses was the author? Is there a better explanation of the authorship based upon the evidence?
Let's dive in this this passage and make a few observations:
18 Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) *came to Jesus, and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves behind a wife and leaves no child, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother. 20 There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children. 21 The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the third likewise; 22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had married her." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."
The Sadducees claim, Moses wrote for us, and quote Deut 25:5
Jesus claims, "have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush" and Jesus references Exodus 3.
If we isolate Jesus words alone: we have 2 interpretive options 1. A possible interpretation is that it's a book about Moses. 2. An equally valid interpretation is that it's a book written by Moses.
Note that Jesus is making it a point to correct their understanding or interpretation of the book of Moses.
In doing so he does not correct their view on the books authorship.
If Jesus is who He claimed to be, and Moses didn't write the book, I would have expected Him to correct the Sadducess on this point, as it would have been easier to say, "that book wasn't written by Moses"
