DirtDiver said:

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"born of water"

2 Interpretive options.

1. Born of water means baptism in water.
2. Born of water means a physical birth from a woman. (the water breaks and a baby comes out)

Which option is best supported by the context of the passage?

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

• Nicodemus is hearing the statement as a physical birth.
• Jesus speaks of 2 births: water and Spirit
• Jesus explains the 2 births in v6: born of flesh AND born of Spirit.

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The earliest of the church fathers: St Justin Martyr, Barnabas, iraneus, tertullian etc all spoke of baptism by water and the necessity of being "washed".

With that being said, there's also baptism by blood (martyrdom) and baptism by desire. I dont see why anyone would be baptized in anything but water as such a thing would be performative and call the whole desire into question anyway

Not to mention the importance of "water" and cleansing to the Jews since the law was given to Moses. So, Nicodemus certainly understood to "Born of water" comment from Jesus to mean 1)Actual birth as an infant and 2)The importance of being clean before God.
What he failed to grasp (and some still do) is the necessity of being Born of the Spirit.

Catag94 said:

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Not to mention the importance of "water" and cleansing to the Jews since the law was given to Moses. So, Nicodemus certainly understood to "Born of water" comment from Jesus to mean 1)Actual birth as an infant and 2)The importance of being clean before God.
What he failed to grasp (and some still do) is the necessity of being Born of the Spirit.

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

Quote:

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Ac 8:34-40 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."
And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

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Amniotic fluid is not water IMO.

747Ag said:

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DeProfundis said:

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All you need to know about Evangelicals is that they think Catholics are going to hell for not being Christian, and that the modern State of Israel is God's chosen people.

They are not to be reasoned with

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Yet, I've had good conversations with my boss on aspects of faith. She's married to the son of a Baptist preacher. Most recently, the conversation was about the manner in which I try to live my life, which in many respects did not comport with her general understanding of Catholics. Much of the conversation was her talking and me listening.

Nevertheless, we have shared values. We have a friendship. There's a foundation for good conversations based in reason. There's a shared trust. I recall sharing an article or thoughts on trust and being able to convince others of a position on this forum years ago. Still convinced that an element of trust is needed. It's why the street preacher approach yields less than a relationship. People don't care how much you know until they know you care.

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Latest is my boss sent me a video of Michael Matt (of The Remnant) and Mother Miriam. Here. We. Go

It is interesting to read carefully what Phillip said: "IF YOU BELIEVE WITH ALL YOUR HEART YOU MAY! So, I ask you, should baptism come only after one firsts believes with all his heart? And, is believing mandatory first and of more importance? Is that not exactly where the thief on the cross to Jesus' left was?

Eta: also, Philip didn't say, "You MUST". He said, "You MAY". Is that (the distinction) significant?

May is permission, not a statement of necessity for salvation.

Belief is a prerequisite to dedicating your life to Christ in the obedient ritual of baptism.

Quote:

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

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When should a person get baptized? After they have believed. It's what some call a believers baptism. The baptism in water doesn't save anyone.

Can a person preach Jesus without mentioning baptism? Yes.
Can a person accept God's offer of forgiveness without knowing that baptism exists? Yes
Can a person have the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Yes (Acts 9)

Did Phillip mention baptism? Yes

He preached Jesus to Him. We do not know what all He shared about the life of Jesus. Did he mention the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, the miracles, etc? probably

His death and resurrection for sins? Most assuredly.

Baptism is distinct from the gospel message by which people hear and are saved upon belief.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void 1 Cor.

Quote:

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Amniotic fluid is not water IMO.

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You are correct, but even to this day, we use the phrase, "her water broke"

The immediate context of the passage doubles down that Jesus is referencing a physical birth here. "That which is born of flesh is flesh" is Jesus interpretation of what it means to be 'born of water'

Romans 3:28 "For we conclude that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

"Apart" from, not "in addition to" works...

TxAgPreacher said:

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May is permission, not a statement of necessity for salvation.

Belief is a prerequisite to dedicating your life to Christ in the obedient ritual of baptism.

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Belief is an intellectual assent as he stated. Even the demons believe Jesus is Christ. Faith is perseverance of that belief.

NoahAg said:

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Romans 3:28 "For we conclude that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

"Apart" from, not "in addition to" works...

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"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24. Faith that does work isn't salvific faith. Faith is action, not just an intellectual ascent. Nothing we do merits our salvation. Works are part of the perseverance of our faith. its not something to be measured or counted, its part of faith. Faith without works is dead.

Catag94 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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NoahAg said:

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Romans 3:28 "For we conclude that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

"Apart" from, not "in addition to" works...

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"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24. Faith that does work isn't salvific faith. Faith is action, not just an intellectual ascent. Nothing we do merits our salvation. Works are part of the perseverance of our faith. its not something to be measured or counted, its part of faith. Faith without works is dead.

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I believe the whole point of this portion of James is that true faith is evidentiated by works and that a claimed faith that has no works is actually not true faith. So, a deeper understanding, and one consistent with other scriptures is that one is saved through FAITH (real faith, not simply professed faith that is dead or not substantiated by works).
To read it as salvation is achieved by the works is a poor reading.

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I agree. And to read the other as faith without works is poor reading as well. I think we get hung up on the back and forth about what the definition of faith entails. I guess in one sense you could say faith isn't works, it INCLUDES the works...meaning everything... of our being (head, heart, soul, body).

Agreed. Hence my earlier my previous points.

Or, to put a finer point on it, salvation is ontological.

Faith and works go together like light and heat from fire...it's not either/or, it's both/and, according to the bible.

Thaddeus73 said:

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Faith and works go together like light and heat from fire...it's not either/or, it's both/and, according to the bible.

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Agreed…because the works are a natural result of the faith and living in the Spirit. Cause and effect, if you will.

AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

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When should a person get baptized? After they have believed. It's what some call a believers baptism. The baptism in water doesn't save anyone.

Can a person preach Jesus without mentioning baptism? Yes.
Can a person accept God's offer of forgiveness without knowing that baptism exists? Yes
Can a person have the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Yes (Acts 9)

Did Phillip mention baptism? Yes

He preached Jesus to Him. We do not know what all He shared about the life of Jesus. Did he mention the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, the miracles, etc? probably

His death and resurrection for sins? Most assuredly.

Baptism is distinct from the gospel message by which people hear and are saved upon belief.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void 1 Cor.

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Your comments on 1 Corinthians is a misread of the text

Notice what he says right above this quote:

"10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.


His point is not about the validity of baptism, but on people associating the person who baptized them with their salvation instead of understanding that it is a work of God and not of any man.

So he's pointing out that nobody there should be saying they are a "follower of Paul" because he didn't baptize any of them...but they are all followers of Christ.

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It appears that people were gloating in who baptized them. In this addressing of the issue, it makes it clear that Christ didn't send him to baptize, but to preach this gospel. We can make a few observations:

The gospel (good news) is more important than baptism.
The gospel is distinct from baptism.
Whatever one adds to to the gospel, something like a baptism requirement, voids the cross of Christ.

Christ sacrifice is 100 percent complete and sufficient for removing our debt of sin and is applied at the moment of belief. Eph 1:13-14

That's why baptism includes the sacrament of chrismation where a person is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit as St Paul says in Ephesians 1:13.

The gospel strips us of all ego and pride.

1. The works of the law do not save people, but neither do good works that are not part of the law.

Titus 3:5 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


2. Follow the logic of Romans 4. The kicker here is the timing. Abraham was approximately 400 years prior to the law of Moses.

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."


James:

1. Was written to believers who are already saved.
2. He's not telling them that if they do not work they are not saved.
3. He's not talking about justification in the eyes of God.
4. Dead in James means "useless or profitless" point being, don't be lazy Christians, your faith should be useful. See all of the examples.


Evidence of faith?
1. Works are not evidence or proof of faith. One may be deeply religiously committed and do good works because they are not convinced Jesus completely removed your debt of sin at the moment of faith.
2. Christians will sin until they die. (note the verbs tense of Romans 3:23)
3. There is a ton of assurance of salvation given to the Corinthian believers followed by addressing their sins. Not once is there salvation questioned.
4. Believers can walk by the Spirit or the Flesh. This command is meaningless if all believers walk by the Spirit at all times.
5. Good works are for the purpose of Glorifying God and adorning the gospel. We were created for this but absolutely not saved by these, thus the cross of Christ be made void.


The only evidence I have of one's faith, is to understand the object of their faith by what they say. Are you trusting in Jesus or are you trusting in yourself, your religious ceremonies, your commitment, your self righteousness, your knowledge, your perseverence, your works, etc?

And yet this teaching was never present in the church for centuries. Somehow the followers of the apostles got a radically different understanding.

Like St Maximos wrote in the 7th century

Quote:

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A charitable mind is not displayed simply in giving money; it is manifested still more by personal service as well as by the communication of God's word to others: In fact, if a man's service toward his brothers is genuine and if he really renounces worldly concerns, he is freed from selfish desires. For he now shares in God's own knowledge and love. Since he does possess God's love, he does not experience weariness as he follows the Lord his God. Rather, following the prophet Jeremiah, he withstands every type of reproach and hardship without even harbouring an evil thought toward any man.
For Jeremiah warns us: Do not say: "We are the Lord's temple." Neither should you say: "Faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ can save me." By itself faith accomplishes nothing. For even the devils believe and shudder.
No, faith must be joined to an active love of God which is expressed in good works. The charitable man is distinguished by sincere and long-suffering service to his fellow man: it also means using things aright.

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Imagine the absurdity of Abram saying - "I believe in God, and I trust Him, so I don't actually have to get up and go to the land He promised me." That is not faith, that is foolishness.

The same author of Ephesians wrote "For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Torah who will be made righteous." Because "Christ is the culmination of the Torah for those who are faithful".

DirtDiver said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

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When should a person get baptized? After they have believed. It's what some call a believers baptism. The baptism in water doesn't save anyone.

Can a person preach Jesus without mentioning baptism? Yes.
Can a person accept God's offer of forgiveness without knowing that baptism exists? Yes
Can a person have the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Yes (Acts 9)

Did Phillip mention baptism? Yes

He preached Jesus to Him. We do not know what all He shared about the life of Jesus. Did he mention the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, the miracles, etc? probably

His death and resurrection for sins? Most assuredly.

Baptism is distinct from the gospel message by which people hear and are saved upon belief.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void 1 Cor.

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Your comments on 1 Corinthians is a misread of the text

Notice what he says right above this quote:

"10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.


His point is not about the validity of baptism, but on people associating the person who baptized them with their salvation instead of understanding that it is a work of God and not of any man.

So he's pointing out that nobody there should be saying they are a "follower of Paul" because he didn't baptize any of them...but they are all followers of Christ.

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It appears that people were gloating in who baptized them. In this addressing of the issue, it makes it clear that Christ didn't send him to baptize, but to preach this gospel. We can make a few observations:

The gospel (good news) is more important than baptism.
The gospel is distinct from baptism.
Whatever one adds to to the gospel, something like a baptism requirement, voids the cross of Christ.

Christ sacrifice is 100 percent complete and sufficient for removing our debt of sin and is applied at the moment of belief. Eph 1:13-14

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You need to read further in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:

4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Paul never once downplays baptism. He's downplaying associating baptism with the human doing it instead of it being from the grace of God. This is why most of the historic Christian churches (if not all) recognize the triune baptism of other groups. Because our Priests/Pastors are performing the act, but it is truly God doing the work. Paul goes to great lengths to make that point to the Corinthians. Those baptized are not followers of Paul or Apollos, but of Christ.

But further to the point, Paul encourages baptism in nearly every letter he writes, if not all of them (I did a cursory look, but not an in-depth one). Baptism is part of the theology of Paul.

Acts 22 (I realize Luke wrote it, but it's Paul in first person:

12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Romans 6:
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7

Galatians 3:
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.


But further, the most blatant text in Scripture is 1 Peter 3:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter directly compares it to the flood to make the point that it is water.

This a misunderstanding of Baptism.

By itself, baptism is just putting water on a person. It means nothing and does nothing.

But when we hear God's Words, His Promises and His Grace, Baptism becomes a true gift from God.

Zobel said:

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And yet this teaching was never present in the church for centuries. Somehow the followers of the apostles got a radically different understanding.

Like St Maximos wrote in the 7th century

Quote:

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A charitable mind is not displayed simply in giving money; it is manifested still more by personal service as well as by the communication of God's word to others: In fact, if a man's service toward his brothers is genuine and if he really renounces worldly concerns, he is freed from selfish desires. For he now shares in God's own knowledge and love. Since he does possess God's love, he does not experience weariness as he follows the Lord his God. Rather, following the prophet Jeremiah, he withstands every type of reproach and hardship without even harbouring an evil thought toward any man.
For Jeremiah warns us: Do not say: "We are the Lord's temple." Neither should you say: "Faith alone in our Lord Jesus Christ can save me." By itself faith accomplishes nothing. For even the devils believe and shudder.
No, faith must be joined to an active love of God which is expressed in good works. The charitable man is distinguished by sincere and long-suffering service to his fellow man: it also means using things aright.

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Imagine the absurdity of Abram saying - "I believe in God, and I trust Him, so I don't actually have to get up and go to the land He promised me." That is not faith, that is foolishness.

The same author of Ephesians wrote "For it is not the hearers of the Torah who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Torah who will be made righteous." Because "Christ is the culmination of the Torah for those who are faithful".

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1. Abraham partially obeyed God when God told him to move. God instructed him not to take his relatives and he took Lot.
2. God made Abraham an outrageous promise. So shall your decedents be. Abraham believe God and his faith in that moment was credited to Him a righteousness.
3. Abraham's life was a roller coaster of faith and disobedience after that.
4. Abe lied twice about Sarah being his sister once before his moment of faith and once after.
5. Abe exercised a great moment of faith when he was to sacrifice his son.

If we isolate the Romans 2 passage about the doers of the law being just before God from it's context one could get a works based righteousness. The number 1 problem is, there's more to the story and Paul doesn't stop writing there.


9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Good News!!!!
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

---

When should a person get baptized? After they have believed. It's what some call a believers baptism. The baptism in water doesn't save anyone.

Can a person preach Jesus without mentioning baptism? Yes.
Can a person accept God's offer of forgiveness without knowing that baptism exists? Yes
Can a person have the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Yes (Acts 9)

Did Phillip mention baptism? Yes

He preached Jesus to Him. We do not know what all He shared about the life of Jesus. Did he mention the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, the miracles, etc? probably

His death and resurrection for sins? Most assuredly.

Baptism is distinct from the gospel message by which people hear and are saved upon belief.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void 1 Cor.

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Your comments on 1 Corinthians is a misread of the text

Notice what he says right above this quote:

"10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.


His point is not about the validity of baptism, but on people associating the person who baptized them with their salvation instead of understanding that it is a work of God and not of any man.

So he's pointing out that nobody there should be saying they are a "follower of Paul" because he didn't baptize any of them...but they are all followers of Christ.

---

It appears that people were gloating in who baptized them. In this addressing of the issue, it makes it clear that Christ didn't send him to baptize, but to preach this gospel. We can make a few observations:

The gospel (good news) is more important than baptism.
The gospel is distinct from baptism.
Whatever one adds to to the gospel, something like a baptism requirement, voids the cross of Christ.

Christ sacrifice is 100 percent complete and sufficient for removing our debt of sin and is applied at the moment of belief. Eph 1:13-14

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You need to read further in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:

4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Paul never once downplays baptism. He's downplaying associating baptism with the human doing it instead of it being from the grace of God. This is why most of the historic Christian churches (if not all) recognize the triune baptism of other groups. Because our Priests/Pastors are performing the act, but it is truly God doing the work. Paul goes to great lengths to make that point to the Corinthians. Those baptized are not followers of Paul or Apollos, but of Christ.

But further to the point, Paul encourages baptism in nearly every letter he writes, if not all of them (I did a cursory look, but not an in-depth one). Baptism is part of the theology of Paul.

Acts 22 (I realize Luke wrote it, but it's Paul in first person:

12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Romans 6:
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7

Galatians 3:
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.


But further, the most blatant text in Scripture is 1 Peter 3:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter directly compares it to the flood to make the point that it is water.

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The "baptism" of the Spirit of God is a gift. Acts 19:2, Eph. 1:13-14, John 7. Baptism in water is a religious ceremony. I'm convinced from the Biblical text that it's good for believers to make public professions of their faith and baptism is a great way to do this. The ceremony however does not remove one's debt of sin. Jesus does this through the moment of faith.

The most common mistake I see from teachers and pastors as it relates to baptism is assuming that it's always referring to water. It's not.

• "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
• and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - NOTE: we are baptized (immersed) into the body by the Spirit not by the ceremonial act of water baptism
• Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death

4 There is one body and one Spirit just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

Is the one baptism with water OR is the one baptism the baptism of the Spirit at the moment of faith?

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Spirit baptism or water?

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Paul never once downplays baptism

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14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Quote:

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But further, the most blatant text in Scripture is 1 Peter 3:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter directly compares it to the flood to make the point that it is water.

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18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves younot the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good consciencethrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Verse 18: Is the gospel message.
Verse 19: an action of Jesus
Verse 20: God brought (rescued) 8 persons safely through the water. Note: this is physicall. Note 2: They did not get wet. They were alive and dry in the ark while all of humanity died in the water around them.
Verse 21: Corresponding to the same way these 8 people are rescued, there's a baptism that saves us - not a removal of dirt form the flesh.

Not a removal of dirt from the flesh - Given all of the things a person can be baptized in, in the entirety of the NT, Peter is specifically eliminating the option of a water baptism. How do all people throughout all of history remove dirt from their flesh?

v21: This is the baptism that saves a person...But and appeal to God for a good conscience - HOW? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Connecting the dots:
1. The facts of the gospel is that Jesus died and rose again, specifically for MY sin (the sins of all of humanity).
2. The very moment a person receives that free gift through faith, they are baptized by the Spirit into Christ. (not by water).
3. It's been a practice since NT times for believers to be baptized after they have believed.
4. Baptism in water doesn't remove our debt of sin.

The sign of faith in the OT was circumcision. Baptism is a current practice that shows others that we placed our faith in Jesus. Consider Paul's book to the Galatians when the sign of faith is elevated beyond it's purpose.

Belief in Jesus Christ as God also means obedience to all of His commands....

Abraham's life isn't a rollercoaster of righteousness, it is a story about a person that shows growth and development, and in the end he was faithful. Yeah, his primary issue is fear and it plays out in how he treats his wife. And, at the end of his life, we see a love and respect for Sarah, and faith overcoming fear with Isaac. That's what faithfulness means. It isn't a moment of intellectual assent, it is being found faithful.

There is no parable that teaches a person is found righteous or not based on what they said or believed - but all of them are about what we do. Because that's what faithfulness is about. Love is a verb, faith is a verb.

We need to read St Paul much more carefully than this. First, there is a difference in his writing between the works of God and the works of the Torah (which of course is what he means by the Greek nomos). As St Paul himself says - "through the works of the Torah no one will be made righteous." How can he say "it is not the hearers of the Torah who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Torah who will be declared righteous"? Is he having a stroke? No. You quoted it right there - "He is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." And now we're right back to the same argument in Galatians 2 - "we also have faith in Christ Jesus, in order to be made righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of the Torah." St Paul is very consistent. Righteousness is not found by following the precepts of the Torah, as he says - there is no part of the Torah that was put in place that could give life.

So then how can it be that, right there, he says that the doers of the Torah will be declared righteous? It is not a riddle if we stop trying to make this a discussion about works righteousness. By following Christ, by being faithful, you will follow the Torah. By living in the Spirit you will have the fruits of the Spirit, and you will live in a manner that is consistent with the Torah. Because, if we remain in Him, we will bear fruit, and the works we do will not be the works of the Torah, they will be the works of God Himself. He will work in us, as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and it is His work we do with Him as His co-workers.

Not merely avoiding breaking laws and avoidance of sin - that is what the Pharisees did, but on the inside they were full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Read the words of the Lord carefully - it is possible to perfectly follow the Torah externally and be full of lawlessness! But if we have faith, we will be filled with the Spirit, and streams of living water will flow from us, and there will be no law against the things will do. Or, as St Paul says in another place, when those who are apart from the Torah follow the Torah, they become a law unto themselves - even to be judged by Christ.

St Paul and the Lord teach this - "the one who loves another has fulfilled the Torah," and "whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets" and "For the whole Torah is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" If you do that, you will be a doer of the Torah, and you will be declared righteous.

As St John says, the person who sins and continues to sin unrepentantly does not know God, has neither seen Him nor knows Him. But the person who practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. Whoever does not love, does not know God, because God is Love.

You cannot be saved by mere intellectual assent. There is a reason the entire second half of Romans is filled with instructions - be humble, work hard, be genuine in love, shun evil and seek good, love each other, strive to show honor, serve the Lord, rejoice, pray, be generous, bless your enemies, weep with those who weep, live in harmony, live in peace, be subject to authority. And every one of St Paul's letters is like this. We are to have faith, and remain in that faith, abide in Christ, and have life. If you do that, you will do the works of God, and you will become like Him, you will be a doer of the Torah (like Christ!) and you will be righteous. That is the promise of scripture.

DirtDiver said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Clearly when Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch, clearly part of what preaching Jesus means is water baptism. They went down into the water.

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When should a person get baptized? After they have believed. It's what some call a believers baptism. The baptism in water doesn't save anyone.

Can a person preach Jesus without mentioning baptism? Yes.
Can a person accept God's offer of forgiveness without knowing that baptism exists? Yes
Can a person have the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Yes (Acts 9)

Did Phillip mention baptism? Yes

He preached Jesus to Him. We do not know what all He shared about the life of Jesus. Did he mention the feeding of the 5,000, the walking on water, the miracles, etc? probably

His death and resurrection for sins? Most assuredly.

Baptism is distinct from the gospel message by which people hear and are saved upon belief.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16

16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void 1 Cor.

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Your comments on 1 Corinthians is a misread of the text

Notice what he says right above this quote:

"10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.


His point is not about the validity of baptism, but on people associating the person who baptized them with their salvation instead of understanding that it is a work of God and not of any man.

So he's pointing out that nobody there should be saying they are a "follower of Paul" because he didn't baptize any of them...but they are all followers of Christ.

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It appears that people were gloating in who baptized them. In this addressing of the issue, it makes it clear that Christ didn't send him to baptize, but to preach this gospel. We can make a few observations:

The gospel (good news) is more important than baptism.
The gospel is distinct from baptism.
Whatever one adds to to the gospel, something like a baptism requirement, voids the cross of Christ.

Christ sacrifice is 100 percent complete and sufficient for removing our debt of sin and is applied at the moment of belief. Eph 1:13-14

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You need to read further in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 3:

4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Paul never once downplays baptism. He's downplaying associating baptism with the human doing it instead of it being from the grace of God. This is why most of the historic Christian churches (if not all) recognize the triune baptism of other groups. Because our Priests/Pastors are performing the act, but it is truly God doing the work. Paul goes to great lengths to make that point to the Corinthians. Those baptized are not followers of Paul or Apollos, but of Christ.

But further to the point, Paul encourages baptism in nearly every letter he writes, if not all of them (I did a cursory look, but not an in-depth one). Baptism is part of the theology of Paul.

Acts 22 (I realize Luke wrote it, but it's Paul in first person:

12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Romans 6:
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7

Galatians 3:
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.


But further, the most blatant text in Scripture is 1 Peter 3:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter directly compares it to the flood to make the point that it is water.

---

The "baptism" of the Spirit of God is a gift. Acts 19:2, Eph. 1:13-14, John 7. Baptism in water is a religious ceremony. I'm convinced from the Biblical text that it's good for believers to make public professions of their faith and baptism is a great way to do this. The ceremony however does not remove one's debt of sin. Jesus does this through the moment of faith.

The most common mistake I see from teachers and pastors as it relates to baptism is assuming that it's always referring to water. It's not.

• "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
• and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - NOTE: we are baptized (immersed) into the body by the Spirit not by the ceremonial act of water baptism
• Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death

4 There is one body and one Spirit just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

Is the one baptism with water OR is the one baptism the baptism of the Spirit at the moment of faith?

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Spirit baptism or water?

Quote:

---

Paul never once downplays baptism

---

.
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Quote:

---

But further, the most blatant text in Scripture is 1 Peter 3:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Peter directly compares it to the flood to make the point that it is water.

---

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves younot the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good consciencethrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Verse 18: Is the gospel message.
Verse 19: an action of Jesus
Verse 20: God brought (rescued) 8 persons safely through the water. Note: this is physicall. Note 2: They did not get wet. They were alive and dry in the ark while all of humanity died in the water around them.
Verse 21: Corresponding to the same way these 8 people are rescued, there's a baptism that saves us - not a removal of dirt form the flesh.

Not a removal of dirt from the flesh - Given all of the things a person can be baptized in, in the entirety of the NT, Peter is specifically eliminating the option of a water baptism. How do all people throughout all of history remove dirt from their flesh?

v21: This is the baptism that saves a person...But and appeal to God for a good conscience - HOW? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Connecting the dots:
1. The facts of the gospel is that Jesus died and rose again, specifically for MY sin (the sins of all of humanity).
2. The very moment a person receives that free gift through faith, they are baptized by the Spirit into Christ. (not by water).
3. It's been a practice since NT times for believers to be baptized after they have believed.
4. Baptism in water doesn't remove our debt of sin.

The sign of faith in the OT was circumcision. Baptism is a current practice that shows others that we placed our faith in Jesus. Consider Paul's book to the Galatians when the sign of faith is elevated beyond it's purpose.

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You've certainly connected dots...just not the right ones.

As you correctly point out, Peter directly connects the waters from the flood with baptism. He wants us to be thinking water.

He then clarifies to us that the water itself might clean the flesh, but that's not what makes us clean before God.

It's the appeal to God through the act through the resurrection of Jesus that is our salvation.

There's really no way around the simple fact that Peter absolutely wants us to understand the usage and importance of water in this act, not as salvation on it's own, but coupled with the promise from Jesus.

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The only way to read it differently is to come to this text with a different answer and then force it back into the text. Read the text straightforwardly, and you're left with two options...conform to the text or force the text to conform to what you want it to say.

You're smart enough to notice the difference.

So as a consequence an unborn child, who had a soul since the time of conception, is denied salvation if they die in the womb? It is either true 100% of the time that a water baptism is required or there are exceptions? If you do not believe the unborn are damned, for where do you get your source for those exceptions?

FIDO95 said:

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So as a consequence an unborn child, who had a soul since the time of conception, is denied salvation if they die in the womb? It is either true 100% of the time that a water baptism is required or there are exceptions? If you do not believe the unborn are damned, for where do you get your source for those exceptions?

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I think we can distinguish between God's commands (for us to follow) and God's desire to provide systematic theology. We baptize because it's what we're told to do (and in my tradition, a sacrament and not a symbol, so meaningful). It doesn't preclude God's providence or mercy.