So a protestant evangelist placed the following card on my Silverado, probably at HEB. I emailed him back and asked him if he would like to discuss, as everything he alleged against Catholicism is 100% in error. He agreed, and we have been meeting at Jims the last two months to discuss. He's a very nice man, and I have made a new friend. We are definitely learning from each other about God's Word!...

Thaddeus73 said:

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So a protestant evangelist placed the following card on my Silverado, probably at HEB. I emailed him back and asked him if he would like to discuss, as everything he alleged against Catholicism is 100% in error. He agreed, and we have been meeting at Jims the last two months to discuss. He's a very nice man, and I have made a new friend. We are definitely learning from each other about God's Word!...

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I believe sincere born again Protestants and Catholics are much closer in their beliefs than they think.

All you need to know about Evangelicals is that they think Catholics are going to hell for not being Christian, and that the modern State of Israel is God's chosen people.

They are not to be reasoned with

DeProfundis said:

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All you need to know about Evangelicals is that they think Catholics are going to hell for not being Christian, and that the modern State of Israel is God's chosen people.

They are not to be reasoned with

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Talk about a brush a mile wide.

DeProfundis said:

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All you need to know about Evangelicals is that they think Catholics are going to hell for not being Christian, and that the modern State of Israel is God's chosen people.

They are not to be reasoned with

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Soooo Christian of you.

DeProfundis said:

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All you need to know about Evangelicals is that they think Catholics are going to hell for not being Christian, and that the modern State of Israel is God's chosen people.

They are not to be reasoned with

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I don't believe either.

Faith as "intellectual assent to a set of facts" saved no one.

Faith as "faithfulness to the Most High God" is the only thing that saves. But that is demonstrated through and throughout our lives. This is what saved Abraham, and what saves us today.

The Law is powerless to save - that's what St Paul correctly says. Because the Law never was supposed to be about faithfulness in and of itself. A person could follow the Torah to the letter and not be faithful to the God of Israel. Thats why He told them their sacrifices and assemblies were unwanted, that's why He said "don't say the temple, the temple, the temple". Without faith, it means nothing. And faith and love go together inextricably. Hence, faithfulness is demonstrated by actions. That's why there is no dissonance between St James and St Paul.

To wit - "knowing that a person is not made righteous by works of the law but through faithfulness in Jesus Christ, we have been faithful in Christ Jesus, that we may be made righteous by faith from Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be made righteous."

Zobel said:

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Faith as "intellectual assent to a set of facts" saved no one.

Faith as "faithfulness to the Most High God" is the only thing that saves. But that is demonstrated through and throughout our lives. This is what saved Abraham, and what saves us today.

The Law is powerless to save - that's what St Paul correctly says. Because the Law never was supposed to be about faithfulness in and of itself. A person could follow the Torah to the letter and not be faithful to the God of Israel. Thats why He told them their sacrifices and assemblies were unwanted, that's why He said "don't say the temple, the temple, the temple". Without faith, it means nothing. And faith and love go together inextricably. Hence, faithfulness is demonstrated by actions. That's why there is no dissonance between St James and St Paul.

To wit - "knowing that a person is not made righteous by works of the law but through faithfulness in Jesus Christ, we have been faithful in Christ Jesus, that we may be made righteous by faith from Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be made righteous."

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You cannot be saved by faith only.

You cannot be saved by works.

You cannot be saved without works.

Catag94 said:

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Please quote those scriptures.

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Quote:

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James 2:14-24 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeand tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

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Quote:

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Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


1 Jn 5:1 - 8 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the worldour faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is He who came by water and bloodJesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

1 Peter 3:18 - 22.18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

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• Faith doesn't save anyone.
• Only God/Jesus saves people.

2 Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

• God saves us (people) through the vehicle of faith in Him

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Abraham: One of the best examples of the moment of faith.

Genesis 15:5"Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.


How the gospel works...

Step 1. Listen
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians

Listen to what? The gospel (Good News)...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Romans 1:17

What is this gospel?
15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Summary:
Christ did for our sins. (MY sins)
He was buried
He rose on the third day.


The gospel message is in fact a set of facts that a person must hear. It's a very specific set of facts about my sin and what Jesus did for my sin. Once I hear this gospel message I have a few options.

Disbelieve the facts.
Ignore the facts.
Believe the facts and reject the gift. (I would say this it's extremely rare that someone would be convinced that Jesus died for them and rose from the dead and said, "no thanks")
Believe the facts and receive the gift.

Step 3: Believe

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The proper response when receiving a free gift if to tell God, "thank you!"

Works:
1. Is not good news
2. are never good enough
3. have no part in the gospel message
4. renders Jesus sacrifice meaningless

In other words, if your religious commitments, obedience, ceremonies or practices could remove your debt of sin, the Jesus died needlessly.

Here are a few reasons Jesus wants His born-again children (by faith) to have good works...
1. Sin is destructive to us and others, why would He want to see us destroy ourselves.
2. He will reward faithfulness in the next life. "store up your treasure where it will not be destroyed"
3. Our good deeds and love towards others is a tool to be used, to adorn the gospel message. If we are selfish, self righteous people, who will listen to our message?
4. God is generous and when we are generous we reflect our Father.

Note: Whatever a person adds to faith alone to the finished work of Christ alone in their gospel presentation will expose their idol and make the statement, "your sacrifice was not sufficient"

Catag94 said:

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Thank you. I was asking for the command to be baptized in water. I don't clearly see that.
I just think baptism is more than just the water.

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Quote:

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"unless one is born of water"

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I agree it's more than water, but it's very very clear.

Catag94 said:

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Curious, what else saved the thief to Jesus' right or those who came before the law?

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I'm gonna go with Jesus as my final answer.